Author Topic: Carcassonne game notation system for tournament play  (Read 1348 times)

Offline tp10053

  • Vassal
  • *****
  • Posts: 98
  • Merit: 1
  • Carcassonne is only complete with 11th expansion:)
    • View Profile
Carcassonne game notation system for tournament play
« on: July 27, 2019, 05:04:34 PM »
Recently a purchase of the first Carcassonne map (Germany), revisiting of wind rose expansion and a rather bizzare conversation with a fellow Carcassonne player about clasification of game components,  has spurred an idea in my mind. I know that chess, along with many abstracts and other games that are being played at tournament level, have a notation system to keep track of and document the progress of the game. So I wondered if something similar was possible in Carcassonne. It would have to be relatively simple when compared to other games with notation, but at the same time thorough enough so that each game could be replayed accurately.

This proposed notation system is intended for use in  1 vs 1  base game tournament play of Carcassonne:


The consolidated tile reference was an immidiate go to, when deciding on how to refer to individual tiles. Only two small additions are needed. Firstly to differentiate between redundant tile references, that being ccff and cfcf. Both come in two variations: Splitters and Joiners. Thhus they can be referenced as ccff-J vs ccff-S and cfcf-J vs cfcf-S respectively. Secondly, the presence of a pennant can be marked by simple + symbol such as cccf vs cccf+.The fact that in  consolidated tile reference, one of the four tile sides is alphabeticaly designated as a starting point of further description (a striking resemblence to alicyclic hydrocarbons nomenclature btw >:D) is also useful, because this side can serve as a descriptor of tile orientation.

In tournament play there are two players: A (starter) and B (opponent), so notation of player's turn should begin with A:  or  B:

Next we need to determine placement of the tile, its orientation and identity. For this I was inspired by Carcassonne map, to create a simple abstract grid with x and y coordinates in square brackets: [x;y]. This grid is determined by starting tile (crfr), with x-axis running from west to east, and y-axis running from south to north, from player A (starter's) perspective. So position of starting tile would be [0;0], a tile placed to the immidiate north of the starting tile [0;+1], to the west [-1;0], etc.
An example in the first attachment - red dot marks the recently placed tile. That tile was placed at that position by player B (white) B:[-1;+2].
For marking the orientation we can determine four cardinal points North, East, South, West (windrose inspiration) with north always pointing from player A (starter) to player B (opponent).
Orientation of the tile side that is first in consolidated tile reference is marked with a descriptor. For example: The starting tile is in orientation [0;0]N:crfr which means the city segment is facing north. Player A draws the very first tile and it is the cfff tile. He/She places it and completes a 4 point city. That move would be marked as: A:[0;+1]S:cfff. Likewise in attachment 2, the tile placed  would be marked as: A:[+2;+2]E:ffrr. In case of bilaterally or radially simetrical tiles either side can be used to mark orientation, but perhaps North and West should be defaults for the sake of consistency.
Another thing that  needs to be adressed is meeple placement. If it was placed then notation of tile placement and orientation should be followed
 by > symbol and then combination of meeple type and orientation of its fature. Knight, Robber, Monk, Farmer. Knowing the meeple type automatically provides information about the type of feature it occupies. This is done in this way purely to avoid confusion due to Cloisters and Cities having the same first letter. Orientation descriptor goes before meeple type and marks on which tile side the feature segment is. Example: again first tile drawn is cfff and player A places a meeple in the completed city: A:[0,+1]S:cfff>S:Ksometimes combinations of cardinal directions will be needed such as farmers on rrrr tile: NE:F.
Finaly, any scoring of points is marked with =+n with additional +n for every scored feature. Also, every +n must be followed by the player who scored it. To finish the small city example, complete notation would be: A:[0,+1]S:cfff>S:K=+4A
Following the established rules, I was able to make a notation of a certain game from world finals. Here is an  excerpt from the beginning:
[0;0]S:crfr
A:[0;-1]N:cfrr>N:K=+4A
B:[0;+1]N:cfff>NW:K
A:[-1;+1]W:ffrr>NW:F
B:[0;+2]E:ccff-J+
A:[-1;-2]W:crfr>W:K
B:[-1;0]N:frfr>W:R
A:[-2;-2]W:cfcf-J
B:[+1;+2]W:cfcf-S>E:K=+8B
A:[0;-2]W:frfr>N:R
B:[-2;-1]N:ffff>N:M


When making this notation I came along  a need for a minor adjustment.One cannot tell the placment of farmer on ccrr tile because both field segments can have only the exact same descriptions. In this specific case I would suggest instead of using cardinal directions, write following descriptors: cf: for city-field and rf: for road-field. For example: B:[-1;+4]E:ccrr+>cf:F

This topic is getting way too long  so I am goin to end it here. If anyone has any questions regarding this  notation system I am happy to answer. Also I would like to know what the community thinks about it and if anyone has ever tried something similar. I could also provide full notation of the said tournament final.

Linkback: http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=4350.0
« Last Edit: August 01, 2019, 06:19:30 AM by tp10053 »

Online Meepledrone

  • Global Moderator
  • Viscount
  • *
  • Posts: 792
  • Merit: 89
  • It is full of... Meeples!!!
    • View Profile
Re: Carcassonne game notation system for tournament play
« Reply #1 on: July 30, 2019, 03:36:46 PM »
Hi tp10053,

Great post.

As I was reading it I was making a comparison in my mind with the way JCloisterZone (JCZ) saves games. For those who don't know JCZ, it is a free Java implementation of Carcassonne created by farin and it allows you to play the basic game as well as many expansions. Check it out here: http://jcloisterzone.com/

Supporting more than 2 players is no rocket science. In some countries there are 4-player games in some phases of the tournaments.

Beyond base game tournaments, I wanted to check with you if you were interested to extend your notation to support expansions as well.   

If so, I would like to share with you some ideas about how JCZ approaches some topics that might be of interest:
* Tile encoding including any special features
* Feature identification on a tile for placement
* Meeple / figure /token placement

I was preparing a long post about all this but I preferred to check first if you would be interested.

Cheers!

Offline CarcFox

  • Labourer
  • **
  • Posts: 11
  • Merit: 1
  • I haven't updated my profile yet!
    • View Profile
Re: Carcassonne game notation system for tournament play
« Reply #2 on: July 31, 2019, 08:28:15 AM »
 One could just denote tiles starting from the "north" feature. So a crfr could be written as an rfrc or as a rcrf depending on how it's placed. It seems a bit more elegant imho and it's more coincise. It also doesn't require anybody to remember which feature is where in the official tile reference. Could it work or are there some problems that I'm overlooking?

Also, I would gladly offer my help to extend this notation to other expansions... It shouldn't be too hard to add Inn and Cathredals. Next to the string rapresenting the tile, c+ is a city with a cathedral, r+ is a road with an inn. The same system can be extended to indicate the placement of a big meep (K+, T+, M+, F+). Could it work?

Maybe I'll try to notate some other expansions later.

Online Meepledrone

  • Global Moderator
  • Viscount
  • *
  • Posts: 792
  • Merit: 89
  • It is full of... Meeples!!!
    • View Profile
Re: Carcassonne game notation system for tournament play
« Reply #3 on: July 31, 2019, 10:14:23 AM »
Hi CarcFox,

Here the issue is what is the "north" feature. Each tile may have up to four version of their description depending on the rotation applied. So the idea would be to pick one and work from there separating coding from rotation when placed.

Regarding the c+ and r+ notation, it is a valid option. I understand that c+ccr+ would represent a tile cccr tile with a cathedral and an inn on its road, right? 
As for meeples, other pieces and tokens, we would need to extend the notation to represent all the cases.


As you also seem to be interested in extending the notation to other expansions, I'm including some info on how JCZ encodes tiles to open the discussion.

Recently a purchase of the first Carcassonne map (Germany), revisiting of wind rose expansion and a rather bizzare conversation with a fellow Carcassonne player about clasification of game components,  has spurred an idea in my mind. I know that chess, along with many abstracts and other games that are being played at tournament level, have a notation system to keep track of and document the progress of the game. So I wondered if something similar was possible in Carcassonne. It would have to be relatively simple when compared to other games with notation, but at the same time thorough enough so that each game could be replayed accurately.

This proposed notation system is intended for use in  1 vs 1  base game tournament play of Carcassonne:


The consolidated tile reference was an immidiate go to, when deciding on how to refer to individual tiles. Only two small additions are needed. Firstly to differentiate between redundant tile references, that being ccff and cfcf. Both come in two variations: Splitters and Joiners. Thhus they can be referenced as ccff-J vs ccff-S and cfcf-J vs cfcf-S respectively. Secondly, the presence of a pennant can be marked by simple + symbol such as cccf vs cccf+.The fact that in  consolidated tile reference, one of the four tile sides is alphabeticaly designated as a starting point of further description (a striking resemblence to alicyclic hydrocarbons nomenclature btw >:D) is also useful, because this side can serve as a descriptor of tile orientation.

The basic coding used JCZ is based on the same letters and symbols (C = city, R = road, F = field, + = pennant) but it uses a different coding for joiners and splitters based on the use of uppercase and lowercase letters to indicate connected sides.

For example ccrr-J would be coded by JCZ as CcRr where Cc represents two city sides connected and Rr represents to road sides connected.

JCZ also uses some type of shorthand with fields so tiles are rotated so field side would be enumerated at the end. Trailing field sides are omitted.

For example ccff-S would be coded by JCZ as CC (no trailing F.) As you can see both city segments are represented by uppercase C as they are not connected.

So revisiting your previous examples with JCZ coding we will have the following mappings:

ccff-J --> Cc
ccff-S --> CC (already mentioned above)
cfcf-J --> CFc
cfcf-S --> CFC
cccf --> Ccc
cccf+ --> Ccc+

Additionally, JCZ codifies monasteries by prepending letter L to the tile coding (remember that trailing field sides are omitted), so:
L represents a ffff tile with a monastery
LR represents a rfff tile with a monastery



Note on JCZ approach to generalizing tile description

So in both cases the basic game is perfectly covered, but what would be necessary to cover any expansions? The approach JCZ takes is to code tiles as follows:

E.X{Y}{.Z}

where:
* E is a 2-character acronym tho represents the base game (BA) or any other expansion (TO = The Tower, R1 = River I,...)
     - The expansion identifier serves as an implicit feature identifier if present in all the tiles of a expansion
     - Examples:
          - Tiles with E = TO (The Tower) present a tower foundation
          - Tiles with E = FE (The Festival) present a festival symbol
          - Tiles with E = PL (The Plague) present a plague doctor symbol
* X is the coding of the tile as commented above. There are multiple letters used depending on the needs, for example:
     - Basic game: C/c = City, R/r = road, F = field, L (prefix) = monastery
     - Abbey & Mayor: A (Preffix) = Tile with abbey (no sides specified afterwards)
     - The Abbot: G (prefix)= Tile with garden
     - River I & II: I = River side (JCZ is not using lowercase i)
     - The Cult: S (preffix) = Tile with shrine
     - The Count: 1..12 = City of Carcassonne tiles are identified by their position number from 1 to 12 (special case)
     - German Monasteries: Name = German monasteries are identified by the monastery name (special case)
* Y is an identifier to qualify the tile with some extra features present in cities or fields, for example:
     - Base game: + = pennant
     - River II / CG#11: + = pig-herd
     - Abbey & Mayor: ++ = double pennant
     - Several expansions: ! = layout variation, normally associated to city peaks touching an opposite vertex of the tile
           - Example: C! = city segment with a pointy hat
     - Several expansions: !+ = combination of ! and +
* .Z is an additional identifier for additional features on tiles, for example:
     - Inns & Cathedrals: .i = inn, .c = cathedral
     - Traders & Builders: .c = cloth, .g = grain, .w = wine
     - The Princess & the Dragon: .p = princess, .v = volcano, .d = dragon, .g = magic portal
     - Bridges, Castles & Bazaars: .b = bazaar, .bi = bazaar + inn
     - Hills & Sheep: .v = vineyard, .h = hill
     - River I & River II: .s = source, .e = end, .v = volcano, .i = inn
     - Flying Machines: .o/.d/.NS.o/.WE.o/.NW.o/.SW.o = road orientation + arrow direction ( o = to the left, d = top left diagonal )
     - Several expansions: .1, .2,... = tags for extra configurations
     - Several expansions: .X = road crossing with a bridge

So, for example, the following case of a base game tile is coded as follows.

ccff-J --> BA.Cc

This coding is not 100% unique for some tiles or there may be variations due to rotations. For example CCcc+ can represent the following tiles, so the expansion prefix is one way to tell them apart:

* AM.CCcc+:



* TO.CCcc+ (or TO.CccC+):



But in general terms, the coding system is flexible enough to cover all cases and provides, if necessary, tools to clarify any ambiguities when necessary.



Hope there is enough material here for an initial discussion.

Cheers!


EDIT: Added line for Hills & Sheep
« Last Edit: August 03, 2019, 11:35:51 AM by Meepledrone »

Offline CarcFox

  • Labourer
  • **
  • Posts: 11
  • Merit: 1
  • I haven't updated my profile yet!
    • View Profile
Re: Carcassonne game notation system for tournament play
« Reply #4 on: July 31, 2019, 01:05:07 PM »
I find the system JCloisterZone uses to notate tiles very effective. And props to you for explaining it here   :(y) We now need to notate the placement of special meeples in some expansions and more generally all the “moving the wood” phase.

Traders and Builders seems like also pretty doable using the .w, .g and .g symbols jcloisterzones uses. Putting them in the middle of the string (e.g. cc.wrf, i don’t know if that tile actually exists but I hope you kinda get the idea) would ensure maximum accuracy tho.

Regarding the special figures: T* could indicate the placement of a builder on a road, K* on a city and maybe F* the pig.

Probably the River (I and II) are also quite easy to notate. The Princess and the Dragon seems quite a mess, especially considering the movements of the dragon. But it’s definitely doable.

 The hardest expansion to notate consistently is by far “The Plague” since it would require almost certainly a second and a third  coordinate system to indicate how the plague spreads and which plague tiles are moved to expand that region. And a third one for meeple escaping the plague. Maybe we should standardize all of those “movements” (Flying Machines, Magic Portals, the Dragon to an extent, the Plague, meeple escaping from the plague and meeple escaping from the Cathars...):

Figure.[x;y]->[w;z]

For example: PlagueChip[17;18]->[20;12] or Dragon[5;6]->[5;7]->[6;7] etc.

This was just a quick draft and notations indicating those things eliminating meeples are needed but I feel like it’s a good start.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2019, 01:20:59 PM by CarcFox, Reason: grammar »

Offline tp10053

  • Vassal
  • *****
  • Posts: 98
  • Merit: 1
  • Carcassonne is only complete with 11th expansion:)
    • View Profile
Re: Carcassonne game notation system for tournament play
« Reply #5 on: July 31, 2019, 03:55:12 PM »
Hello Meepledrone,

thank you for explaining JCZ tile coding, as I was unfamiliar with it. It is interesting indeed and I believe it is a very good way of recording games that include expansions. However I chose to focus on just the base game for its simplicity and the fact that I have recently been trying to collect game data more efficiently to do some statistics of tournament play. My aim was to provide a more detailed, faster and more intuitive system of game notation, one that would be manageable by a person, in real time, with a spreadsheet. Thanks to inclusion of just the base game, I could afford to be exhaustively descriptive without notation getting convoluted, therefore I have created this system with that mindset.

I still have a few questions about JCZ system:

how does it handle tile rotation?
does it use some kind of grid as well?
what about meeple placement?

Offline Decar

  • Global Moderator
  • Chatelain Officier
  • *
  • Posts: 5327
  • Merit: 238
  • Shut up and take my money!
    • View Profile
    • tehill.net
Re: Carcassonne game notation system for tournament play
« Reply #6 on: August 01, 2019, 04:49:20 AM »
The easiest thing to see what JCZ does is open a save file. It's an xml document that maintains gamestate at any moment.

Sorry don't have one to hand!

Offline CarcFox

  • Labourer
  • **
  • Posts: 11
  • Merit: 1
  • I haven't updated my profile yet!
    • View Profile
Re: Carcassonne game notation system for tournament play
« Reply #7 on: August 01, 2019, 05:29:52 AM »
So, I opened a simple save file of JCloisterZone and I hope that I can answer tp10053's questions. The whole file is composed by lists in curly brackets, for example:

{"type":"PLACE_TILE","payload":{"tileId":"BA.Rr","rotation":"R270","position":[-2,0]}} ,or
{"type":"DEPLOY_MEEPLE","payload":{"pointer":{"position":[-2,0],"location":"NL.NR.EL.SR.WL.WR"},"meepleId":"0.small.2"}}

As you can see, it does infact handle rotation in a similar manner as tp10053 proposed in the original post, and it does have a coordinate system. You can see the full file at https://pastebin.com/bXPqB11b (it's quite short, I saved the game after a few moves).

To be honest this doesn't seem so usefull to create a system humans can use. I would stick to the original one that was proposed in this thread, perhaps expanding it to include expansions.

Offline tp10053

  • Vassal
  • *****
  • Posts: 98
  • Merit: 1
  • Carcassonne is only complete with 11th expansion:)
    • View Profile
Re: Carcassonne game notation system for tournament play
« Reply #8 on: August 01, 2019, 11:23:04 AM »
Thank you, CarcFox, for making this clear for me.
It does seem too complex and time-consuming for human use. As I already mentioned, I created my proposed system to be human-friendly and completely descriptive of the base game, without making it too complex. If I were to create an equally descriptive system that would encompass all the expansions, then perhaps some of the fundamental characteristics of the the original system would not be ideal. Then again maybe its not impossible.

Lets say we do use the original "special" notation system as a basis for a "general" notation (borrowing the naming of the two theories of relativity...).

Several basic questions need to be answered about the approach, so let me brainstorm for a moment:

In my opinion the biggest challange is accurate description of tile configuration without adding way too much complexity - ideally a set of rules that would enable us to describe any theoretical tile configuration (with as little exceptions as possible). Consolidated tile reference only describes the edges of the tiles and their connectivity with other tiles. It doesn't actually tell you anything about inner layou. In "special" notation, this is not a problem since there is only a limited number of configurations.

Secondly, I believe we need to make some sort of distinction between a type of follower - which I see as sort of a class or specialisation, and its deployment, which I see more as an occupation it serves on the board. Special figures can only be deployed as themselves.

Offline tp10053

  • Vassal
  • *****
  • Posts: 98
  • Merit: 1
  • Carcassonne is only complete with 11th expansion:)
    • View Profile
Re: Carcassonne game notation system for tournament play
« Reply #9 on: August 01, 2019, 12:10:30 PM »
Also here is the spreadsheet ready to print. You can write notation into it.

Online Meepledrone

  • Global Moderator
  • Viscount
  • *
  • Posts: 792
  • Merit: 89
  • It is full of... Meeples!!!
    • View Profile
Re: Carcassonne game notation system for tournament play
« Reply #10 on: August 01, 2019, 12:26:29 PM »
Hi guys,

You both posted while I was preparing an reply to the pending questions...

So here you are some more information on JCZ to add more info to the discussion...


Hello Meepledrone,

thank you for explaining JCZ tile coding, as I was unfamiliar with it. It is interesting indeed and I believe it is a very good way of recording games that include expansions. However I chose to focus on just the base game for its simplicity and the fact that I have recently been trying to collect game data more efficiently to do some statistics of tournament play. My aim was to provide a more detailed, faster and more intuitive system of game notation, one that would be manageable by a person, in real time, with a spreadsheet. Thanks to inclusion of just the base game, I could afford to be exhaustively descriptive without notation getting convoluted, therefore I have created this system with that mindset.

Hi tp10053!

My pleasure. I just wanted to share with you what JCZ did just in case you wanted to another view to the same problem you solved. Of course added flexibility means additional verbosity. And your approach is perfectly fine to cover your objective.

I still have a few questions about JCZ system:

how does it handle tile rotation?
does it use some kind of grid as well?
what about meeple placement?


Let me address address your questions using the saved game excerpt from CarcFox's post:

{"type":"PLACE_TILE","payload":{"tileId":"BA.Rr","rotation":"R270","position":[-2,0]}} ,
{"type":"DEPLOY_MEEPLE","payload":{"pointer":{"position":[-2,0],"location":"NL.NR.EL.SR.WL.WR"},"meepleId":"0.small.2"}}


JCZ saved games are stored in JSON format. It is like a veborse chunk of Javascript describing a data structure describing, in this case, the actions of players during the game. The file does not indicate explicitly the player making each move, so you cannot tell from reading the file if player X is playing a double turn, for example. It doesn't either records the points scored by players. JCZ reads the saved game  file and rebuilds all the missing information tp10053 in including in his notation.

(I was saving this part for later...  :o)

So let's start with the questions:

1. does it use some kind of grid as well?

Yes, JCZ uses a similar coordinate system. The only difference is that the Y-axis grows downwards (to the south) so some coordinate examples here:

* Start tile:  [0;0]
* Tile to the immediate north: [0;-1]
* Tile to the immediate west: [-1;0]

So, in the example above the tile was placed in coordinate [-2;0], that is, to tiles west from the start tile.



2. how does it handle tile rotation?

Regarding tile rotation, JCZ uses a rotation-oriented notation expressing the angle in degrees instead of cardinal points. Here is the equivalence:
* N = R0 (the north side of the tile points north)
* E = R90 (the north side of the tile points east)
* S = R180 (the north side of the tile points south)
* W = R270 (the north side of the tile points west)

So getting back to the example above:

The JSON excerpt tells JCZ to place tile BA.Rr applying a rotation of 270 degrees.

JCZ stores the BA.Rr tile as ffrr (it is not normalized so the north side is a road) and the road connects sides S and W:



So after applying the R270 rotation the tile is placed with configuration frrf, so the road connects sides S and E.



3. what about meeple placement?

JCZ presents a key difference in the approach to meeple placement.

* In your case you designate the feature indirectly by the role of the meeple (K = knight --> city, R = robber  --> road, M = monk --> monastery, F = farmer --> field) and maybe add an indication to resolve ambiguities: a cardinal direction to select the feature if more than one is present on the tile.

* JCZ identifies the feature by the cardinal directions of its connections to the sides of the tile (once rotated and placed).
   - N, E, S, W or any combination of them, such as NE will indicate a road or city connecting those sides of the tile.
   - NL, NR, EL, ER, SL, SR, WL, WR (cardinal direction + left or right half as seen from the center of the tile outwards): are used to build sequences of the tile half-sides connected by a field.
   - Special identifiers in case the tile contains features with special treatments: CLOISTER (for monasteries, abbeys, shrines, German Monastery... as a monk), MONASTERY (German Monastery as an abbot), INNER_FARM (for cccc tiles with one field), INNER_FARM_A and INNER_FARM_B (for cccc tiles with two inner field, for example, the tile with two cities crossing thanks to a bridge),...

Getting back to the example above, the rotated tile to position frrf: will contain the following areas:
* A large field: NL.NR.EL.SR.WL.WR
* Road: SE
* A small field:ER.SL

As you can see, the meeple is placed on the large field. So the type of the meeple is inferred from the sides.

Additionally, JCZ encodes the type of meeple placed. In the example, we have 0.small.2, that indicates:
* "0": the player id: Player 1 (players are numbered starting form 0)
* "small": the figure type, in this case, a normal meeple
* "2": Internally JCZ keeps track of the number of the meeple placed (1 up to 7 for normal meeples). In this case the second normal meeple was the one placed.

Another interesting choice of JCZ is that provides coordinates for tiles and figures placed independently, so placing a figure and placing a tile can be dissociated as for example when using a magic portal.



Additionally JCZ files contain an number of messages (actions) that may happen during game, just a starting list so you may have an idea:

- PLACE_TILE: places a tile
- DEPLOY_MEEPLE: places a meeple or a special figure, e.g. a normal meeple, a wagon, a builder, a pig, a shepherd,...
- RETURN_MEEPLE: remove meeple from tile due to crop circle, festival, princess tile, siege escape
- MOVE_NEUTRAL_FIGURE: places or moves a neutral figure, e.g. the dragon , the fairy, the mage, the witch,...
- DEPLOY_FLIER: Deploy a flier
- PLACE_TOKEN: place a token such as a little building,
- CAPTURE_FOLLOWER: capture a follower with a tower
- PAY_RANSOM: pay for a captured meeple
- EXCHANGE_FOLLOWER: exchange followers
- CIRCLE_REMOVE_OR_DEPLOY: Crop circle action
- FLOCK_EXPAND_OR_SCORE: action to decide what action takes a shepherd
- BAZAAR_BID  / BAZAAR_BUY_OR_SELL: Bazaar related meesages



So what next?

Cheers!

Offline CarcFox

  • Labourer
  • **
  • Posts: 11
  • Merit: 1
  • I haven't updated my profile yet!
    • View Profile
Re: Carcassonne game notation system for tournament play
« Reply #11 on: August 02, 2019, 05:29:49 AM »
In my opinion the biggest challange is accurate description of tile configuration without adding way too much complexity - ideally a set of rules that would enable us to describe any theoretical tile configuration (with as little exceptions as possible). Consolidated tile reference only describes the edges of the tiles and their connectivity with other tiles. It doesn't actually tell you anything about inner layou. In "special" notation, this is not a problem since there is only a limited number of configurations.

I thought of a good system to explain the tile configuration better and with less ambiguities: instead of marking with different capitalizations if a feature is connected or not, we could mark with different capitalizations (and eventually apostrophes) different cities/roads on the same tile. I was thinking of C,c,C',c' starting from the "north" side and proceeding clockwise (if that's needed, in most cases C and c are sufficient).  So the tile with two cities crossing each other would be a CcCc, a tile with four distincts road would be a RrR'r'. This could be refined but it's a massive improvement in clarity and consistency since to tell if a two feature are connected you just need to check if they have the same capitalization and apostrophe.

Note that this would eliminate the need to signal a rotation. For example a CCCR could be CCRC or a RCCC, depending on how the tile is placed, since every string starts from the north element (which varies depending on the rotation).

Plus, you could use this system to refine the placement of meeples too. Writing simply "K" could cause ambiguities in some cases, which are avoided by writing "KC" or "Kc".

Offline tp10053

  • Vassal
  • *****
  • Posts: 98
  • Merit: 1
  • Carcassonne is only complete with 11th expansion:)
    • View Profile
Re: Carcassonne game notation system for tournament play
« Reply #12 on: August 03, 2019, 07:24:37 AM »
I am preparing a longer post which should be out in the following days.
I am working on solving the generalized layout nomenclature only... no special features yet. I may have borrowed a few things...
Feel free to post any suggestions in the meantime.

Online Meepledrone

  • Global Moderator
  • Viscount
  • *
  • Posts: 792
  • Merit: 89
  • It is full of... Meeples!!!
    • View Profile
Re: Carcassonne game notation system for tournament play
« Reply #13 on: August 03, 2019, 08:21:35 AM »
Hi tp10053,

This topic can lead to long dissertations. I experienced it myself trying to split my reply in several posts.  ;)

That was the idea behind sharing all this information so you could compare your approach with another point of view and borrow any ideas that would help you in your endeavor. If so, it was worth the effort and the long posts.  :(y)

Cheers!




Offline tp10053

  • Vassal
  • *****
  • Posts: 98
  • Merit: 1
  • Carcassonne is only complete with 11th expansion:)
    • View Profile
Re: Carcassonne game notation system for tournament play
« Reply #14 on: August 03, 2019, 11:29:07 AM »
Hi tp10053,

This topic can lead to long dissertations. I experienced it myself trying to split my reply in several posts.  ;)

That was the idea behind sharing all this information so you could compare your approach with another point of view and borrow any ideas that would help you in your endeavor. If so, it was worth the effort and the long posts.  :(y)

Cheers!
Hi, Meepledrone,

many thanks  to you for your detailed explanations! :(y)


Share via delicious Share via digg Share via facebook Share via furl Share via linkedin Share via myspace Share via reddit Share via stumble Share via technorati Share via twitter

  Subject / Started by Replies / Views Last post
xx
Anybody wants to play a JCloister-Game now?

Started by Hounk

4 Replies
1906 Views
Last post January 15, 2015, 07:18:31 AM
by Rosco
xx
Blokus - Is it possible to play all pieces in a cooperative game? It is!

Started by ny1050220

3 Replies
2232 Views
Last post April 29, 2016, 07:07:45 PM
by ny1050220
xx
Illustrated Game report: Skipped mother-in-law to play mega-carc vs my son.

Started by What If?

3 Replies
1736 Views
Last post February 08, 2017, 01:44:22 AM
by Chooselife
xx
Rating System for Reviews, by BIG GUY

Started by Big Guy

44 Replies
13364 Views
Last post September 17, 2014, 07:57:43 AM
by Gerry
xx
CundCo Shop - coming soon with new system and navigation

Started by kettlefish

23 Replies
6752 Views
Last post October 02, 2015, 06:47:59 AM
by Hounk