Author Topic: The wagon and the Big Top.  (Read 357 times)

Offline Windekind

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The wagon and the Big Top.
« on: June 29, 2019, 05:45:00 AM »
Most likely with the tiles of the Big Top (Circus tiles & Acrobat tiles) the 'yellow ground' is the same as the 'yellow grounds' in The Catapult and the Bazaars.
The wagon is most likely not allowed to travel through the 'yellow ground'.

Am I correct?

Linkback: http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=4323.0

Offline Meepledrone

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Re: The wagon and the Big Top.
« Reply #1 on: June 29, 2019, 11:28:41 AM »
Hi Windekind!

If you are playing with C2 A&M rules, you can move the wagon to any unoccupied, uncompleted feature on the same tile or any adjacent tile. That is you have 9 tiles to choose from. C2 A&M changed and relaxed, so to speak, the rules for the wagon. 

On the other hand, if you are playing with C1 A&M rules, the wagon will NOT be allowed to move past any yellow area from The Catapult, a bazaar, a circus or an acrobat tile that may happen to end a road.

You can find a summary of the main rule changes here on WICA:

http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Summary_of_Rule_Sets_%26_Changes

Hope this helps.  ;)

Cheers!

Offline Windekind

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Re: The wagon and the Big Top.
« Reply #2 on: July 03, 2019, 01:13:53 PM »
Thank you

Perhaps this can also be placed in the 'Other expansions' list of Under the Big Top?

Offline Meepledrone

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Re: The wagon and the Big Top.
« Reply #3 on: July 03, 2019, 03:51:18 PM »
You are welcome, Windekind!

There was a note (#18) about the differences of C1 and C2 in the C2 A&M page:

http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Abbey_and_the_Mayor#cite_note-18

This note summarized all the clarifications about the C1 rules for the movement of the wagon in order to help with the comparison. Check also clarifications #33 to #38 on the C1 A&M page:

http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Abbey_and_the_Mayor_(1st_edition)#cite_note-33

I would prefer to keep all the information about the movement of the wagon in the A&M pages as there are so many cases to cover that would be difficult to track and maintain if it was scattered all over WICA.

Does it make sense?

Cheers!

Offline Windekind

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Re: The wagon and the Big Top.
« Reply #4 on: July 04, 2019, 04:33:36 AM »
Indeed that sounds logical. Otherwise it is a search if something changes.

If I understand correctly, the wagon in C1 cannot pass these obstacle:


For C2, this would not be a problem if an unfinished project is surrounded.

Offline Meepledrone

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Re: The wagon and the Big Top.
« Reply #5 on: July 04, 2019, 02:29:27 PM »
Indeed that sounds logical. Otherwise it is a search if something changes.

If I understand correctly, the wagon in C1 cannot pass these obstacle:


For C2, this would not be a problem if an unfinished project is surrounded.

Hi Windekind!

You are right with all those cases not allowed but are not the only ones. You may miss some cases included in the Russian Promos, for example.

So if we are talking about the cases allowed in C1, you will find the following considered in the rules and official clarifications:
* Road to road through a crossing
* Road to any connected claimable feature and vice versa: city (through a gate), monastic building (monasteries, shrines, abbey, German monasteries, Dutch & Belgian monasteries, Japanese Temples, Darmstadt churches) and German cathedrals..
* A city to an adjacent abbey and vice versa
* A city to a monastery within and vice versa

Bear in mind that the following cases are not allowed in C1:
* Two cities with touching walls or tips on the same or on different tiles.
* Two cities connected by "small roads" where meeples cannot be placed.
* Two cities crossing via bridges but no connected via roads.
* Two roads separated by a feature (any aspect on a tile that can be claimed by a meeple or that triggers any function)
* A road touching a city wall with no gate
* A road running through a city via a tunnel or passing over via a bridge

All this rules out all the cases you show in your picture and any other structures that can end a road: towers, fairs, bazaars, acrobat spaces, circus spaces, crop circles, festivals, fruit-bearing trees, watch towers, the Bogatyr stone, the Solovei Razboynik tree, and any other non-claimable feature that may appear in the feature unless specified otherwise.

On the other hand, C2 rules relies on adjacency instead of connectivity by roads or surfaces.

Offline Windekind

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Re: The wagon and the Big Top.
« Reply #6 on: July 13, 2019, 06:11:49 AM »
http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=214.0

I was looking at something in older post or this forum ...
This problem will be solved in CAR-II. The car may go to the left or right road or in the city.




Offline Meepledrone

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Re: The wagon and the Big Top.
« Reply #7 on: July 13, 2019, 07:22:55 AM »
Hi Windekind!

As per the CII rules, you have several valid destinations for the wagon in the example you mention. There are the three options you point out on the tile framed in red (the tile just placed that causes the wagon to score) plus three other unclaimed, uncompleted roads located on adjacent tiles to the wagon. You even could pick a feature on the same tile as the wagon, if possible. C2 does not require connectivity through roads or common surfaces (for abbeys or monasteries in cities, for example.) 

Just as a reminder, as per the CI rules, the wagon only has one possible valid destination: the road going south. There is no other unoccupied, uncompleted feature connected to the city and, as you indicate, the short roads on the tile at the top are not considered valid for the wagon to move.

Please check the the image below. It marks with blue circles the possible valid destinations for CI rules and CII rules. You can see how CII rules relaxed the requirements exiting in CI rules.

Cheers!

Offline Windekind

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Re: The wagon and the Big Top.
« Reply #8 on: July 13, 2019, 01:48:20 PM »
Thank you for this really clear information, Meepledrone!  :(y)

Offline DrMeeple

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Re: The wagon and the Big Top.
« Reply #9 on: July 14, 2019, 03:51:56 PM »
I prefer the C1 wagon rule.

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Offline Halfling

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Re: The wagon and the Big Top.
« Reply #10 on: July 15, 2019, 05:21:44 AM »
That's progress I guess, it gives a better reward opportunity for using the wagon
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Offline Meepledrone

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Re: The wagon and the Big Top.
« Reply #11 on: July 15, 2019, 05:42:36 AM »
IMHO the C1 rules lead to so many restrictions because of the appearance of new (unclaimable) features ending roads through the years (see picture above.) Thus HiG decided, at a certain point, to update the C2 rules and relax those limitations in a way players do not need a detailed list of dos and donts that would be never complete as new expansions are released.

If anyone has some insights on this rules change, please share. We all would be delighted to know more. Thanks.

Offline DrMeeple

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Re: The wagon and the Big Top.
« Reply #12 on: July 15, 2019, 06:19:27 AM »
IMHO the C1 rules lead to so many restrictions because of the appearance of new (unclaimable) features ending roads through the years (see picture above.) Thus HiG decided, at a certain point, to update the C2 rules and relax those limitations in a way players do not need a detailed list of dos and donts that would be never complete as new expansions are released.

If anyone has some insights on this rules change, please share. We all would be delighted to know more. Thanks.

Good try but you will not convince me hahaha  :))

Offline Meepledrone

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Re: The wagon and the Big Top.
« Reply #13 on: July 15, 2019, 07:41:29 AM »
Ok, hard-core C1 stranger!  ;D

Next time you play a mega-Carcassonne game with wagons and players have to remove it after each scoring with C1 rules, please remember my words.

Cheers!

Offline Windekind

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Re: The wagon and the Big Top.
« Reply #14 on: July 15, 2019, 01:04:56 PM »
I also prefer the C1 version. It seems more logical than a wagon that can suddenly jump. It make no sense.
But I also do understand that they want to simplify the rules with the C2.


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