Author Topic: Order of play in french  (Read 10221 times)

Offline yezhenhan

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Re: Order of play in french
« Reply #75 on: August 24, 2019, 04:50:18 AM »
Hi corinthiens13

I have not the RGG version.
CAR7.4 page99 :The castle is only considered to have been completed when a structure (cloister, city,
road, or another castle) which lies on at least one of the six adjacent tiles is completed.

I think this rule is right.Not mention the castle score first,just completed at same time.

You said:
The WICA order of play that states "Each player receiving points chooses the order in which his or her features resolve.

It is right,so I can choose castle later.

You said:
Exception: A castle must be resolved immediately after any feature which triggers its completion.

This rule may not mean castle score first.
For example,city A and road B is in the vicinity of castle C,all belong to one player,all finished.
Now you choose the order for receive points.
It is permitted:A--C--B, or B--C--A
It is forbidden:A--B--C,or B--A--C ,because once you choose A,the castle C must after its score immediately.

Maybe I am wrong because english is not my native language.
If the exception is mean castle first ,I don’t understand the reason for make this rule.Do you know the reason?
« Last Edit: August 25, 2019, 06:43:40 PM by yezhenhan »

Offline Meepledrone

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Re: Order of play in french
« Reply #76 on: August 25, 2019, 04:18:10 AM »
Hi corinthiens13!

You said
1, Castles are scored first

why?
I think same time if two features belong to different players. You can choose the order if two featurea belong to same player.

The RGG version of the rules states that the castle scores “when the first feature … in the vicinity of the castle is later completed”, so it is scored directly after a feature is completed, and thus it is scored before counting the points for any other feature.

It's also based on the WICA order of play that states "Each player receiving points chooses the order in which his or her features resolve. Exception: A castle must be resolved immediately after any feature which triggers its completion."

That's correct.

Imagine you (Red) place a tile in a castle fief that completes a city with a watchtower and a road with a ringmaster. When you start evaluating the features you the castle owner will decide the order. Depending on the owner of the castle you may decide to minimize or maximize the points scored by the castle The castle owner will try to maximize their score ;). See the picture attached.

As you can see:
* The watchtower scores 4 points
* The city scores 12 points
   - Core feature scoring: 8 points
   - Bonus: 4 points
      - Mage: 3 points
      - Little Building: 1 point with basic rules
* The road scores 5 points
   - Core feature scoring: 2 points
   - Bonus: 3 points (Fairy)
* Ringmaster scores 2 points.

Scenario 1: If the castle is yours, you (Red) want to get as many points as possible. You would evaluate in the following order:
1. Watchtower --> 4 points for Red
2. City --> 12 points for Red
3. Castle --> 12 points for Red from the city.Tthe watchtower is scored before the road/city it is associated to but it does not trigger the castle scoring
4. Road --> 5 points for Red
5. Ringmaster --> 2 points for Red

Red scores 4 + 12 + 12 + 5 + 2 =  35 points
Blue scores 0 points

Scenario 2: If the castle belongs to Blue so you want to minimize the points scored by Blue's castle. You would evaluate in the following order, Blue would instruct you to score in the following order to maximize his score:
1. Road --> 5 points for Red
2. Castle --> 5 points from the road for Blue
3. Ringmaster --> 2 points for Red
4. Watchtower --> 4 points for Red
5. City --> 12 points for Red

Red scores 5 + 2 + 4 + 12 =  23 points

If Red had scored the city first, Blue would have scored 12 points instead of 5 points.


1. Watchtower --> 4 points for Red
2. City --> 12 points for Red
3. Castle --> 12 points for Blue from the city. The watchtower is scored before the road/city it is associated to but it does not trigger the castle scoring
4. Road --> 5 points for Red
5. Ringmaster --> 2 points for Red

Red scores 4 + 12 + 5 + 2 =  23 points
Blue scores 12 points

So the idea behind all this is that:
* If several features are scored in a castle fief, you may decide the order of evaluation according to your interests depending on the context
* If several features are scored in a castle fief, the castle owner will decide the order of evaluation according to their interests
* The castle will be scored right after a feature triggering the castle scoring.
* Features scored may combine core feature points plus bonus points as one scoring event (City + Mage + Little Buildings, for example). These points will be scored in full by a castle
* The castle ignores features/figures providing any independent bonus points so they do not triggering the castle scoring, such as the watchtower.

You said
2,as if his castle meeple was on the structure and was the only meeple present on the structure.

I think as if he is the owner of the structure is ok. Your words maybe conflict with labyrinths.

That's right, ok for "as if he is the owner of the structure"

You said
2,B. The castle's owner gets the bonuses :Darmstadt churches

I think Darmstadt church bonus belong to the player have most number of followers, not belong to castle owner

Correct, Darmstadt church bonus has to be moved to points C and D.

So here's my corrected proposition:

If a feature has been completed in a castle's fief :
1. Castles are scored first (we all agree on that I guess)

You have to choose wisely, as you've seen above. No always the castle will work in your favor so the evaluation order can be important.

2. The owner of the castle scores the structure just as if he is the owner of the structure, and so, no matter if the structure was owned by any other players :
  • A. The castle's owner gets 0 points if he had a mayor and the structure isn't a city with pennants (city without pennants, cloister, road...etc)
    • He may still get bonuses that are Independent from the scoring:
      • Not watchtowers as the castle's meeple isn't specifically on any watchtower tile
      • Fairy 3-point if associated to the castle's meeple (if fairy + castle meeple is allowed, there's different rules about this)
      • Markets of Leipzig (monasteries only as other quarters requires a meeple on the structure)
     
  • Following points are only if condition A isn't met:
  • B. The castle's owner gets the core feature points, including bonuses linked to the scoring such as:
    • Mage and Witch (for cities)
    • Little Buildings
    • Bathhouses (for roads and cities)
    • Labyrinths advanced rules (for roads)
    • German Castles (for road and cities)
    • Darmstadtium (for cities)
    • Vineyards (for monastic buildings)
Just a note: Mage and Witch (for roads and cities)

 
  • C. The castle's owner gets points that are linked to his own meeples:
    • Darmstadt churches
    • Not watchtowers as the castle's meeple isn't specifically on any watchtower tile
    • Ringmaster (if it's a ringmaster on the castle)
    • Fairy 3-point (if associated to the castle's meeple (if fairy + castle meeple is allowed, there's different rules about this)
    • Markets of Leipzig (road, cities, monasteries)
There are three things that caught my eye when checking the rules of Exp. 10 - Under the Big Top:
1. You may place the ringmaster on a castle, but the rules didn't specify how to score in a fief. So far WICA is assuming ringmasters cannot score when placed on a castle as it is not placed on a specific tile.
2. The circus can trigger a castle scoring. IMHO this is an exception as it is not a tile-based feature that players have to complete. The circus is scored when another circus tile is placed or at the end of the game before final scoring.
3. Acrobat pyramids cannot trigger a castle scoring, on the other hand. In this case, it is a reusable figure-based feature that players have to complete.

 
  • D. The castle's owner doesn't get any points that are linked to meeples present on the feature:
    • Darmstadt churches
    • Watchtowers
    • Ringmasters
    • Fairy 3-point bonus
    • Markets of Leipzig (roads, cities, monasteries)

Ringmasters and watchtowers are independent bonus by definition, so a castle will never get points from them.
The other cases (Darmstadt churches, Fairy 3-point bonus and Markets of Leipzig for roads, cities and monasteries) work in a dual way:
i. When associated to a meeple scoring the feature, the bonus is added to the feature scoring and therefore the castle gets the bonus points through the feature.
ii. When associated to a meeple not scoring the feature, the independent bonus is not visible to the castle.

I understand bullet (ii) is the case you consider in section D above. So with "meeples present on the feature" you mean meeples present but without majority, right? If so, this cannot apply to Markets of Leipzig for roads.

3. Then the owner(s) of the feature (if there is one) scores it using normal rules, independently from the castle (even if the feature's owner is the same color than the castle's owner)

Cheers !

Cheers![/list][/list]

EDIT: The Castle owner decides the order of evaluation of features in its fief.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2019, 04:22:32 AM by Meepledrone »
Questions about rules? Check WICA: www.wikicarpedia.com

Offline Meepledrone

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Re: Order of play in french
« Reply #77 on: August 25, 2019, 07:11:29 AM »
Hi all,

The WICA Scoring Summary pages now include  annotations about what features can trigger a castle scoring (marked with a small castle token):
* Scoring During the Game for C1/C2/WE
* Scoring After the Game for C1/C2/WE

Check, for example, the C2 versions here:
* Scoring During the Game: http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Scoring_During_the_Game
* Scoring After the Game: http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Scoring_After_the_Game

Please, use tab "Filters" to select all the editions and the preferred edition (the one taking preference for graphics and rules) and then use tab "Quick Selectors" to select all the expansions by clicking the "Select All" button. You will see the information for all the expansions combined. The Expansion Selector at the top of those pages allows you to select expansions in full or by parts in some cases.

Cheers!

Offline Meepledrone

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Re: Order of play in french
« Reply #78 on: August 25, 2019, 07:58:37 AM »
Hi corinthiens13

I have not the RGG version.
CAR7.4 page99 :The castle is only considered to have been completed when a structure (cloister, city,
road, or another castle) which lies on at least one of the six adjacent tiles is completed.

I think this rule is right.Not mention the castle score first,just completed at same time.

You said:
The WICA order of play that states "Each player receiving points chooses the order in which his or her features resolve.

It is right,so I can choose castle later.

You said:
Exception: A castle must be resolved immediately after any feature which triggers its completion.

This rule may not mean castle score first.
For example,city A and road B is in the vicinity of castle C,all belong to one player,all finished.
Now you choose the order for receive points.
It is permitted:A--C--B, or B--C--A, or C--A--B,or C--B--A
It is forbidden:A--B--C,or B--A--C ,because once you choose A,the castle C must after its score immediately.

Maybe I am wrong because english is not my native language.
If the exception is mean castle first ,I don’t understand the reason for make this rule.Do you know the reason?

Hi yezhenhan,

The castle must score the points for the first feature evaluated on a castle fief. You The castle lord will decide what the scoring order is. So, in this case, the evaluation order of the features in the fief is either A--B or B--A. Therefore the castle scores right after the first feature and the possible orders of evaluation are A--C--B and B--C--A.

Invalid options are:
* A--B--C and B--A--C ==> The castle scoring cannot be delayed (arbitrarily.)
* C--A--B and C--B--A ==> The castle scoring cannot be the first feature evaluated as it required a previous feature evaluation to score the same points. 

Hope this helps.

Cheers!

EDIT: The Castle owner decides the order of evaluation of features in its fief.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2019, 04:06:41 AM by Meepledrone »

Offline corinthiens13

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Re: Order of play in french
« Reply #79 on: August 25, 2019, 08:27:54 AM »
Hi,

You have to choose wisely, as you've seen above. No always the castle will work in your favor so the evaluation order can be important.

Ok, so castles aren't scored first, but they are scored directly after the first triggering feature that has been scored in its fief (and so before scoring any other structure).

Just a note: Mage and Witch (for roads and cities)
That's right !

1. You may place the ringmaster on a castle, but the rules didn't specify how to score in a fief. So far WICA is assuming ringmasters cannot score when placed on a castle as it is not placed on a specific tile.
I didn't think about that, but I think I agree with WICA

Ringmasters and watchtowers are independent bonus by definition, so a castle will never get points from them.
The other cases (Darmstadt churches, Fairy 3-point bonus and Markets of Leipzig for roads, cities and monasteries) work in a dual way:
i. When associated to a meeple scoring the feature, the bonus is added to the feature scoring and therefore the castle gets the bonus points through the feature.
ii. When associated to a meeple not scoring the feature, the independent bonus is not visible to the castle.

I understand bullet (ii) is the case you consider in section D above. So with "meeples present on the feature" you mean meeples present but without majority, right? If so, this cannot apply to Markets of Leipzig for roads.
My proposition would be that the Castle's owner do only get points from the core structure (bullet b) and points that are linked to his own meeple (bullet C), but not any points linked to meeples present on the structure, even those with majority.
I think this may fit the official rules (to my knowledge) and it is easier to understand and to evaluate during the game. Because otherwise, if castle meeple may get bonus points linked to meeples with majority on the tile (leipzig, fairy, Darmstadt), it can lead to complex situation:

Situation:
Road scored in a castle's fief, red owns the road, blue owns the castle.
  • If blue has a meeple on the road section of Leipzig, he gets the bonus
  • If red has a meeple on the road section of Leipzig, both red and blue get the bonus, but if, for the same road and castle, the road isn't occupied when it's completed, blue doesn't have the same points as he doesn't get the bonus
  • If both have a meeple on the road section of Leipzig, red gets the bonus, and blue should get it twice but it's limited to once so he gets it only once
This is, I think, complicated and so with my proposition:

Situation:
Road scored in a castle's fief, red owns the road, blue owns the castle.
  • If blue has a meeple on the road section of Leipzig, blue gets the bonus
  • If red has a meeple on the road section of Leipzig, red gets the bonus
  • If both have a meeple on the road section of Leipzig, both red and blue get the bonus

They simply have bonuses linked to their own meeples, it's easier to understand, doesn't lead to different way of counting castle points if the triggering structure is occupied or not. The question is: Do the official rules contradicts this way of counting castle's points?



And so here's my corrected proposition for counting castles:

If a feature has been completed in a castle's fief :

1. The owner(s) of the feature (if there is one) scores it using normal rules, independently from the castle (even if the feature's owner is the same color than the castle's owner)

2. Castles are scored directly after the first triggering feature that has been scored in its fief (and so before scoring any other structure)

3. The owner of the castle scores the structure just as if he is the owner of the structure, and so, no matter if the structure was owned by any other players :
  • A. The castle's owner gets 0 points if he had a mayor and the structure isn't a city with pennants (city without pennants, cloister, road...etc)
    • He may still get bonuses that are Independent from the scoring:
      • Not watchtowers as the castle's meeple isn't specifically on any watchtower tile
      • Fairy 3-point if associated to the castle's meeple (if fairy + castle meeple is allowed, there's different rules about this)
      • Markets of Leipzig (monasteries only as other quarters requires a meeple on the structure)
     
  • Following points are only if condition A isn't met:
  • B. The castle's owner gets the core feature points, including bonuses linked to the scoring such as:
    • Mage and Witch (for road and cities)
    • Little Buildings
    • Bathhouses (for roads and cities)
    • Labyrinths advanced rules (for roads)
    • German Castles (for road and cities)
    • Darmstadtium (for cities)
    • Vineyards (for monastic buildings)
     
  • C. The castle's owner gets points that are linked to his own meeples:
    • Darmstadt churches
    • Not watchtowers as the castle's meeple isn't specifically on any watchtower tile
    • Not ringmaster as the castle meeple isn't on a specific tile
    • Fairy 3-point (if associated to the castle's meeple (if fairy + castle meeple is allowed, there's different rules about this)
    • Markets of Leipzig (road, cities, monasteries)
     
  • D. The castle's owner doesn't get any points that are linked to meeples present on the feature (even the owner of the feature):
    • Darmstadt churches
    • Watchtowers
    • Ringmasters
    • Fairy 3-point bonus
    • Markets of Leipzig (roads, cities, monasteries)

Cheers !
Order of play in french with every major expansions, mini expansions and promo tiles :
http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?action=downloads;sa=view;down=346

Offline yezhenhan

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Re: Order of play in french
« Reply #80 on: August 25, 2019, 06:08:42 PM »
Hi Meepledrone,

You said:
C--A--B and C--B--A are invalid options.

you are right.(if ABC belong to one player)I update my reply.
Thank you very much.


You said:
The circus can trigger a castle scoring.

Why?
I think the circus is bonus for the follower in the castle ,it is not belong to castle scoring. A new circus tile trigger the circus bonus.

You said:
WICA is assuming ringmasters cannot score when placed on a castle as it is not placed on a specific tile.

I don’t think so. For each Circus and Acrobat tile that your ringmaster is on or adjacent to, score 2 points. Six tiles are adjacent to the castle,so six tiles are adjacent to the ringmaster.when ringmaster is in the castle,for each Circus and Acrobat tile adjacent to the castle,score 2 points.If you think he get 0 bonus ,he will say:why  ignore my ability?



Scenario 2.
you think if red choose road resolve first ,the blue in castle must only score the road.

It is not right.If all feature belong to one player,he can decide the order,if not,no player can decide others choose.In this case,road and city belong to red,castle belong to blue.Because blue is in the castle ,as if blue is also the owner of the road and city.

CAR7.4 page 100
Should the placement of a tile simultaneously complete more than one structure adjacent to the castle, the occupier of the castle may decide which of them to receive points for. A castle receives points for only one completed structure.

So blue in castle can decide which of them to receive points for. He can choose city score or road score as if he is the owner of the city and road.

The rule write "each" player choose the order,it is not mean only one player choose the order and other player must follow it .

Red get 2 point for road and 3 point for the follower next fairy.
Blue in castle can decide to get the city score or the road score,but he can not get the fairy 3.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2019, 07:05:44 PM by yezhenhan »

Offline Meepledrone

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Re: Order of play in french
« Reply #81 on: August 26, 2019, 04:03:39 AM »
Hi Meepledrone,

You said:
C--A--B and C--B--A are invalid options.

you are right.(if ABC belong to one player)I update my reply.
Thank you very much.


You said:
The circus can trigger a castle scoring.

Why?
I think the circus is bonus for the follower in the castle ,it is not belong to castle scoring. A new circus tile trigger the circus bonus.

Check the rules for the interaction between Exp 8 and Exp 10 here:

http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Under_the_Big_Top#Circus_tiles.2C_animal_tokens_and_the_big_top_2

The rules say:

Quote
If at least one tile forming a castle is adjacent to the Big Top, a meeple in that castle will score points when a circus is scored.

So the castle will score the circus points.

You said:
WICA is assuming ringmasters cannot score when placed on a castle as it is not placed on a specific tile.

I don’t think so. For each Circus and Acrobat tile that your ringmaster is on or adjacent to, score 2 points. Six tiles are adjacent to the castle,so six tiles are adjacent to the ringmaster.when ringmaster is in the castle,for each Circus and Acrobat tile adjacent to the castle,score 2 points.If you think he get 0 bonus ,he will say:why  ignore my ability?

I agree with you this would be the logical approach but, unless HiG clarifies this case, it would be a house rule. I'm a bit conservative in this matter as HiG exploits in different ways the fact the the castle is not in a specific tile so the meeples in the castle cannot be affected by the dragon, the tower, the plague,... and there is no mention of interaction of the ringmaster with castles in the Exp. 10 rules.

Scenario 2.
you think if red choose road resolve first ,the blue in castle must only score the road.

It is not right.If all feature belong to one player,he can decide the order,if not,no player can decide others choose.In this case,road and city belong to red,castle belong to blue.Because blue is in the castle ,as if blue is also the owner of the road and city.

CAR7.4 page 100
Should the placement of a tile simultaneously complete more than one structure adjacent to the castle, the occupier of the castle may decide which of them to receive points for. A castle receives points for only one completed structure.

So blue in castle can decide which of them to receive points for. He can choose city score or road score as if he is the owner of the city and road.

The rule write "each" player choose the order,it is not mean only one player choose the order and other player must follow it .

Red get 2 point for road and 3 point for the follower next fairy.
Blue in castle can decide to get the city score or the road score,but he can not get the fairy 3.

I checked the rules for C2 too and you are right.

Quote
If a tile is placed that causes multiple features that are neighboring your castle to be completed at the same time, you decide what order they are scored. As always, you only score points for the first feature.

I mixed the castle and the robber rules in my head. My bad.

Note: I will edit my previous email on this matter to correct my mistake.

Offline corinthiens13

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Re: Order of play in french
« Reply #82 on: August 27, 2019, 12:38:10 PM »
I agree with you this would be the logical approach but, unless HiG clarifies this case, it would be a house rule. I'm a bit conservative in this matter as HiG exploits in different ways the fact the the castle is not in a specific tile so the meeples in the castle cannot be affected by the dragon, the tower, the plague,... and there is no mention of interaction of the ringmaster with castles in the Exp. 10 rules.

Maybe an approach that may fit the (incomplete) official rules could be :
  • Any action affecting a specific tile (dragon, plague, tower, goldmines?, little buildings) do not interact with a meeple on a castle as he isn't on a specific tile
  • But for any action a meeple can do with adjacent tiles (ringmaster bonus, fruit trees, circus), a meeple on a castle may also have it but for the 6 adjacent tiles only

What do you think ?

Cheers !

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Re: Order of play in french
« Reply #83 on: August 27, 2019, 03:52:36 PM »
Hi corinthiens13,

I agree with you this would be the logical approach but, unless HiG clarifies this case, it would be a house rule. I'm a bit conservative in this matter as HiG exploits in different ways the fact the the castle is not in a specific tile so the meeples in the castle cannot be affected by the dragon, the tower, the plague,... and there is no mention of interaction of the ringmaster with castles in the Exp. 10 rules.

Maybe an approach that may fit the (incomplete) official rules could be :
  • Any action affecting a specific tile (dragon, plague, tower, goldmines?, little buildings) do not interact with a meeple on a castle as he isn't on a specific tile

Correct.

  • But for any action a meeple can do with adjacent tiles (ringmaster bonus, fruit trees, circus), a meeple on a castle may also have it but for the 6 adjacent tiles only

* Fruit actions are associated to the placement of a meeple on a new fruit-bearing tree tile or on a new tile adjacent to the tree tile. So I can't see a case where a meeple on a castle can comply with these requirements for its fief. Acrobats are a similar case.
* A circus scoring affects all meeples on the circus tile or on adjacent tiles. I understand that you would like to include any meeple in a castle overlapping any of the 9 tiles centered in the circus tile. I would rule out this option for the same reasons as the tower (to name one reference.)
* The ringmaster on a castle could score its bonus on the castle fief as a house rule. The rules don't cover this case so I assume it is not officially considered as I commented earlier.

What do you think ?

Cheers !

If I'm missing something, please let me know.

Cheers!

Offline corinthiens13

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Re: Order of play in french
« Reply #84 on: August 30, 2019, 12:50:28 AM »
* Fruit actions are associated to the placement of a meeple on a new fruit-bearing tree tile or on a new tile adjacent to the tree tile. So I can't see a case where a meeple on a castle can comply with these requirements for its fief. Acrobats are a similar case.
Well, I thought when placing a meeple on a castle, you can get fruits if a tree's on the 6 adjacent tiles.
But on second thought, I realised you never really place a meeple on a castle, you place it on a small city tile and then you change it to a castle and move the meeple on the castle (both on the same turn, or on different turns if the meeple had been placed on the 1st half of the city). So fruits can be harvested if present on the 8 tiles adjacent to the city tile on which the meeple has been placed (or on the tile itself). As you said, the castle doesn't interact with this.

* A circus scoring affects all meeples on the circus tile or on adjacent tiles. I understand that you would like to include any meeple in a castle overlapping any of the 9 tiles centered in the circus tile. I would rule out this option for the same reasons as the tower (to name one reference.)
* The ringmaster on a castle could score its bonus on the castle fief as a house rule. The rules don't cover this case so I assume it is not officially considered as I commented earlier.

To my point of view, those two actions are different than towers, dragon...etc as they are based on adjacent tiles and not on a specific tile. Tiles in a castle's fief may be considered as adjacent to the castle, and so the ringmaster may score its bonus, and a circus present on in a castle's fief completes the castle.

I know the official rules doesn't say anything about what tiles are considered adjacent to the castle, but I think saying a castle has a fief but no adjacent tiles is as much a house rule than saying the fief and adjacent tiles are the same 6 tiles (or do I miss something?).

So to me:
  • A castle isn't on a tile, so any actions affecting a specific tile doesn't affect the castle
  • The 6 tiles around the castle are considered adjacent to it (reason why a circus on those tiles triggers the castle's scoring) and so a ringmaster may have his bonus when scoring a castle (considering only the 6 adjacent tiles)

What do you think ? Is there any contradiction I'm missing about this in the official rules?


Oh, and one of my previous post remained an open question about what points are counted:

My proposition would be that the Castle's owner do only get points from the core structure (bullet b) and points that are linked to his own meeple (bullet C), but not any points linked to meeples present on the structure, even those with majority.
I think this may fit the official rules (to my knowledge) and it is easier to understand and to evaluate during the game. Because otherwise, if castle meeple may get bonus points linked to meeples with majority on the tile (leipzig, fairy, Darmstadt), it can lead to complex situation:

Situation with (if I understood it correctly) your explanations :
Road scored in a castle's fief, red owns the road, blue owns the castle.
  • If blue has a meeple on the road section of Leipzig, he gets the bonus
  • If red has a meeple on the road section of Leipzig, both red and blue get the bonus, but if, for the same road and castle, the road isn't occupied when it's completed, blue doesn't have the same points as he doesn't get the bonus
  • If both have a meeple on the road section of Leipzig, red gets the bonus, and blue should get it twice but it's limited to once so he gets it only once
This is, I think, too complicated and hard to understand for players that didn't hardly study the rules.

Situation with my understanding of the rules:
Same road scored in a castle's fief, red owns the road, blue owns the castle.
  • If blue has a meeple on the road section of Leipzig, blue gets the bonus
  • If red has a meeple on the road section of Leipzig, red gets the bonus
  • If both have a meeple on the road section of Leipzig, both red and blue get the bonus

They simply have bonuses linked to their own meeples, it's easier to understand, doesn't lead to different way of counting castle points if the triggering structure is occupied or not. The question is: Do the official rules contradicts this way of counting castle's points?


This would lead to this order of scoring a castle:
If one or more features have been completed in a castle's fief, the castle's owner choses from which he gets points:

1. The owner(s) (if there is one or more) of the feature scores it using normal rules, independently from the castle (even if the feature's owner is the same color than the castle's owner)

2. The castle is scored directly after the feature from which he gets points

3. The owner of the castle scores the structure just as if he is the owner of the structure, and so, no matter if the structure was owned by any other players :
  • A. The castle's owner gets 0 points if he had a mayor and the structure isn't a city with pennants (city without pennants, cloister, road...etc)
    • He may still get bonuses that are Independent from the scoring:
      • Not watchtowers as the castle's meeple isn't specifically on any watchtower tile
      • Fairy 3-point if associated to the castle's meeple (if fairy + castle meeple is allowed, there's different rules about this)
      • Markets of Leipzig (monasteries only as other quarters requires a meeple on the structure)
     
  • Following points are only if condition A isn't met:
  • B. The castle's owner gets the core feature points, including bonuses linked to the scoring such as:
    • Mage and Witch (for road and cities)
    • Little Buildings
    • Bathhouses (for roads and cities)
    • Labyrinths advanced rules (for roads)
    • German Castles (for road and cities)
    • Darmstadtium (for cities)
    • Vineyards (for monastic buildings)
     
  • C. The castle's owner gets points that are linked to his own meeples:
    • Darmstadt churches
    • Not watchtowers as the castle's meeple isn't specifically on any watchtower tile
    • Not ringmaster as the castle meeple isn't on a specific tile or including ringmaster but considering the 6 adjacent tiles, this has to be clarified
    • Fairy 3-point (if associated to the castle's meeple (if fairy + castle meeple is allowed, there's different rules about this)
    • Markets of Leipzig (road, cities, monasteries)
     
  • D. The castle's owner doesn't get any points that are linked to meeples present on the feature (even the owner of the feature):
    • Darmstadt churches
    • Watchtowers
    • Ringmasters
    • Fairy 3-point bonus
    • Markets of Leipzig (roads, cities, monasteries)

Cheers !
« Last Edit: August 30, 2019, 01:05:17 AM by corinthiens13 »

Offline yezhenhan

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Re: Order of play in french
« Reply #85 on: August 30, 2019, 03:10:01 AM »
Hi Meepledrone and corinthiens13,

I learn a lot from both of you.
+1 merit for you.


Offline corinthiens13

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Re: Order of play in french
« Reply #86 on: August 30, 2019, 04:18:25 AM »
Hi Meepledrone and corinthiens13,

I learn a lot from both of you.
+1 merit for you.

Hi,

I learned a lot from Meepledrone too ;)

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Re: Order of play in french
« Reply #87 on: August 30, 2019, 08:15:03 AM »
Hi corinthiens13,

* Fruit actions are associated to the placement of a meeple on a new fruit-bearing tree tile or on a new tile adjacent to the tree tile. So I can't see a case where a meeple on a castle can comply with these requirements for its fief. Acrobats are a similar case.
Well, I thought when placing a meeple on a castle, you can get fruits if a tree's on the 6 adjacent tiles.
But on second thought, I realised you never really place a meeple on a castle, you place it on a small city tile and then you change it to a castle and move the meeple on the castle (both on the same turn, or on different turns if the meeple had been placed on the 1st half of the city). So fruits can be harvested if present on the 8 tiles adjacent to the city tile on which the meeple has been placed (or on the tile itself). As you said, the castle doesn't interact with this.

Bear also in mind that Fruit actions take place during the 2. Placing a Meeple phase while the placement of a meeple on the castle happens during the 3. Scoring phase. Thus the "timing" is not right even if you build the castle on the same tile as the meeple. In any case you would perform the Fruit action after placing the tile but before you place the castle and the meeple on it.

* A circus scoring affects all meeples on the circus tile or on adjacent tiles. I understand that you would like to include any meeple in a castle overlapping any of the 9 tiles centered in the circus tile. I would rule out this option for the same reasons as the tower (to name one reference.)
* The ringmaster on a castle could score its bonus on the castle fief as a house rule. The rules don't cover this case so I assume it is not officially considered as I commented earlier.

To my point of view, those two actions are different than towers, dragon...etc as they are based on adjacent tiles and not on a specific tile. Tiles in a castle's fief may be considered as adjacent to the castle, and so the ringmaster may score its bonus, and a circus present on in a castle's fief completes the castle.

The rules do not define adjacency in these terms but the CAR does (check CAR v7.4, page 282):

Quote

adjacent

...

For a castle, adjacent means on one of the two tiles on which the castle itself stand, the two to its left, or the two to its right: a total of six tile.

...


So here we are saved by the bell.

I know the official rules doesn't say anything about what tiles are considered adjacent to the castle, but I think saying a castle has a fief but no adjacent tiles is as much a house rule than saying the fief and adjacent tiles are the same 6 tiles (or do I miss something?).

So to me:
  • A castle isn't on a tile, so any actions affecting a specific tile doesn't affect the castle
  • The 6 tiles around the castle are considered adjacent to it (reason why a circus on those tiles triggers the castle's scoring) and so a ringmaster may have his bonus when scoring a castle (considering only the 6 adjacent tiles)

What do you think ? Is there any contradiction I'm missing about this in the official rules?

I agree with you that the reasonable way to score a ringmaster on a castle is to take into account any meeple placed in the castle fief. My only consideration here is that this being a special case worth mentioning, neither the Expansion 8 rules nor the Expansion 10 rules dedicate a single sentence to this relevant case. If so, I suspect that HiG is not considering this interaction.

I see this case in a similar way to the placement of a meeple on an unoccupied castle via a magic portal. It could be a reasonable extension of the rules (you may use the magic portal to claim an unoccupied uncompleted feature on a tile placed on this turn or any previous one - unless the feature is completed by the placement of the magic portal tile) but no rule or official clarification allows players to place a meeple on an unoccupied castle through a magic portal. So this possibility is ruled out.

Thus, unless HiG clarifies the interaction, my interpretation is that ringmasters placed in castles do not get ringmaster points as a trade off for becoming a castle lord, although I see more than reasonable the adaptation of the scoring from 9-tile area to the 6-tile fief.

I have searched the rules, CarcC and CarcF for a confirmation or denial of the ringmaster scoring with the ringmaster placed in a castle to no avail. If anyone can shed some light on this case. I would appreciate it.

Oh, and one of my previous post remained an open question about what points are counted:

My proposition would be that the Castle's owner do only get points from the core structure (bullet b) and points that are linked to his own meeple (bullet C), but not any points linked to meeples present on the structure, even those with majority.

I agree but I think it is simpler that that. The castle will score the points of the feature in the fief scoring the maximum number of points (that will be the one scored first ;) ). If several players share the majority and one scores more than the other (for example due to the Fairy), the castle will score the same points of the highest score for that feature. The feature score will consist of core feature scoring plus any bonuses applicable to the player's presence in the feature such as:
* Mage and Witch (for road and cities)
* Little Buildings (for roads, cities, monasteries,...)
* Bathhouses (for roads and cities)
* Labyrinths advanced rules (for roads)
* German Castles (for road and cities)
* Darmstadtium (for cities)
* Vineyards (for monastic buildings)
* 3-point fairy scoring bonus (for roads, cities, monasteries,...)
* Markets of Leipzig (for road, cities, monasteries).

Additionally, the castle lord's player may get other bonuses, the same as any other player due to the game mechanics for various features and bonuses. (These bonuses can come even from features outside the fief):
* 3-point fairy scoring bonus (for fairy placed next the player's meeple on a feature being scored - including the castle)
* Teacher bonus (if the player has the Teacher)
* Watchtower bonus (if the player had a meeple placed on the Watchtower tile of any road or city scored)
* Ringmaster points (if any feature scored in the fief contained the player's ringmaster)
* Darmstadt churches (if the castle lord's player had the majority in their vicinity) 
* Markets of Leipzig (bonus for cities or monasteries - not roads)

In a nutshell, I wouldn't try to push the analysis of all the scoring cases through the castle. It is much simpler than that. Think of a feature being scored and a castle getting the same points (black box mode: the castle knows nothing about the origin of the points.) Just that. The other bonuses (except for the fairy next to the castle lord) don't go to the castle lord, they go to the player due to the context in the game.

I'm trying to keep all this as simple as possible.

Note: If several castle fiefs overlap, all the castles will get the same points. It will be like a chain reaction. So pick the highest scoring feature and once you calculate the score, score the castles, and proceed "normally" with other bonuses and scored features. There is no weird mechanisms involved in all this.

I think this may fit the official rules (to my knowledge) and it is easier to understand and to evaluate during the game. Because otherwise, if castle meeple may get bonus points linked to meeples with majority on the tile (leipzig, fairy, Darmstadt), it can lead to complex situation:

Situation with (if I understood it correctly) your explanations :
Road scored in a castle's fief, red owns the road, blue owns the castle.
  • If blue has a meeple on the road section of Leipzig, he gets the bonus
  • If red has a meeple on the road section of Leipzig, both red and blue get the bonus, but if, for the same road and castle, the road isn't occupied when it's completed, blue doesn't have the same points as he doesn't get the bonus
  • If both have a meeple on the road section of Leipzig, red gets the bonus, and blue should get it twice but it's limited to once so he gets it only once
This is, I think, too complicated and hard to understand for players that didn't hardly study the rules.

Situation with my understanding of the rules:
Same road scored in a castle's fief, red owns the road, blue owns the castle.
  • If blue has a meeple on the road section of Leipzig, blue gets the bonus
  • If red has a meeple on the road section of Leipzig, red gets the bonus
  • If both have a meeple on the road section of Leipzig, both red and blue get the bonus

They simply have bonuses linked to their own meeples, it's easier to understand, doesn't lead to different way of counting castle points if the triggering structure is occupied or not. The question is: Do the official rules contradicts this way of counting castle's points?

The game mechanics would be as follows: Red scores the road first and Blue, the castle owner, gets the same points.

Red is the only one getting the bonus directly.  Red has the majority in road and has a meeple in Wainwrights quarter. Blue, the castle owner, gets the very same points as the Red for the road but no additional bonus from Leipzig. Blue is not present on the road.

All in all:
* Red scores X points (core feature score + road bonus from Leipzig)
* Blue scores X points the same points as Red for the road. Blue itself is not present on the road so no bonus points from Leipzig are possible.

IMHO it is straightforward.

This would lead to this order of scoring a castle:
If one or more features have been completed in a castle's fief, the castle's owner choses from which he gets points:

1. The owner(s) (if there is one or more) of the feature scores it using normal rules, independently from the castle (even if the feature's owner is the same color than the castle's owner)

2. The castle is scored directly after the feature from which he gets points

3. The owner of the castle scores the structure just as if he is the owner of the structure, and so, no matter if the structure was owned by any other players :
  • A. The castle's owner gets 0 points if he had a mayor and the structure isn't a city with pennants (city without pennants, cloister, road...etc)
    • He may still get bonuses that are Independent from the scoring:
      • Not watchtowers as the castle's meeple isn't specifically on any watchtower tile
      • Fairy 3-point if associated to the castle's meeple (if fairy + castle meeple is allowed, there's different rules about this)
      • Markets of Leipzig (monasteries only as other quarters requires a meeple on the structure)
     
  • Following points are only if condition A isn't met:
  • B. The castle's owner gets the core feature points, including bonuses linked to the scoring such as:
    • Mage and Witch (for road and cities)
    • Little Buildings
    • Bathhouses (for roads and cities)
    • Labyrinths advanced rules (for roads)
    • German Castles (for road and cities)
    • Darmstadtium (for cities)
    • Vineyards (for monastic buildings)
     
  • C. The castle's owner gets points that are linked to his own meeples:
    • Darmstadt churches
    • Not watchtowers as the castle's meeple isn't specifically on any watchtower tile
    • Not ringmaster as the castle meeple isn't on a specific tile or including ringmaster but considering the 6 adjacent tiles, this has to be clarified
    • Fairy 3-point (if associated to the castle's meeple (if fairy + castle meeple is allowed, there's different rules about this)
    • Markets of Leipzig (road, cities, monasteries)
     
  • D. The castle's owner doesn't get any points that are linked to meeples present on the feature (even the owner of the feature):
    • Darmstadt churches
    • Watchtowers
    • Ringmasters
    • Fairy 3-point bonus
    • Markets of Leipzig (roads, cities, monasteries)

Cheers !

My recommendation is to keep castle scoring as simple as possible:
1. Tally the points for the feature triggering the castle scoring.
    - If several features and/or meeples are involved, pick the highest score for the feature/meeple combination.
2. Score the points for all the players with majority on the feature picked
    - Any bonuses preceding the feature scoring should be performed first (watchtowers, Gingerbread Man,...) - These points do not affect castles
    - Any bonuses after the feature scoring should be performed last (ringmaster scoring,...) - These points do not affect castles
3. Score the points foe the castle(s) involved.
    - Any bonuses affecting castle lords will be taken into consideration (Fairy)
4. Proceed with the scoring of any other feature involved.

Hope this helps.

Cheers!

Offline Meepledrone

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Re: Order of play in french
« Reply #88 on: August 30, 2019, 08:19:16 AM »
Hi yezhenhan and corinthiens13,

Hi Meepledrone and corinthiens13,

I learn a lot from both of you.
+1 merit for you.

Thank you! I appreciated it a lot.

Hi Meepledrone and corinthiens13,

I learn a lot from both of you.
+1 merit for you.

Hi,

I learned a lot from Meepledrone too ;)

Thank you for this and your awesome work with the Order of Play in French!

We are all learning a lot from these discussions, and that's the point, right?

Cheers!

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Re: Order of play in french
« Reply #89 on: August 30, 2019, 01:08:33 PM »
Bear also in mind that Fruit actions take place during the 2. Placing a Meeple phase while the placement of a meeple on the castle happens during the 3. Scoring phase. Thus the "timing" is not right even if you build the castle on the same tile as the meeple. In any case you would perform the Fruit action after placing the tile but before you place the castle and the meeple on it.

Agreed !

The rules do not define adjacency in these terms but the CAR does (check CAR v7.4, page 282):

...

I agree with you that the reasonable way to score a ringmaster on a castle is to take into account any meeple placed in the castle fief. My only consideration here is that this being a special case worth mentioning, neither the Expansion 8 rules nor the Expansion 10 rules dedicate a single sentence to this relevant case. If so, I suspect that HiG is not considering this interaction.

I see this case in a similar way to the placement of a meeple on an unoccupied castle via a magic portal. It could be a reasonable extension of the rules (you may use the magic portal to claim an unoccupied uncompleted feature on a tile placed on this turn or any previous one - unless the feature is completed by the placement of the magic portal tile) but no rule or official clarification allows players to place a meeple on an unoccupied castle through a magic portal. So this possibility is ruled out.

Thus, unless HiG clarifies the interaction, my interpretation is that ringmasters placed in castles do not get ringmaster points as a trade off for becoming a castle lord, although I see more than reasonable the adaptation of the scoring from 9-tile area to the 6-tile fief.

I have searched the rules, CarcC and CarcF for a confirmation or denial of the ringmaster scoring with the ringmaster placed in a castle to no avail. If anyone can shed some light on this case. I would appreciate it.

I didn't see the CAR definition of "adjacent", but I think CAR exploits this issue (does a castle have adjacent tiles) in the most logical way, as the official rules doesn't clarify that (I also couldn't find anything in the official rules.

In my French rules, I'll keep this rules, at least until we have any official clarification:
  • A meeple on a castle isn't on a tile, so any actions affecting a specific tile doesn't affect the castle (and so it's not possible to place a meeple on a castle using magic portals or fliers too)
  • The 6 tiles around the castle are considered adjacent to the castle
This explains why a circus triggers a castle's scoring, and this also imply a ringmaster on a castle can get his bonus when scoring the castle. Plus, considering this rule already clarifies future questions with other expansion as this gives a base rule.


All in all:
* Red scores X points (core feature score + road bonus from Leipzig)
* Blue scores X points the same points as Red for the road. Blue itself is not present on the road so no bonus points from Leipzig are possible.

------

My recommendation is to keep castle scoring as simple as possible:
1. Tally the points for the feature triggering the castle scoring.
    - If several features and/or meeples are involved, pick the highest score for the feature/meeple combination.
2. Score the points for all the players with majority on the feature picked
    - Any bonuses preceding the feature scoring should be performed first (watchtowers, Gingerbread Man,...) - These points do not affect castles
    - Any bonuses after the feature scoring should be performed last (ringmaster scoring,...) - These points do not affect castles
3. Score the points foe the castle(s) involved.
    - Any bonuses affecting castle lords will be taken into consideration (Fairy)
4. Proceed with the scoring of any other feature involved.

This clarifies things a bit. So as we consider the castle meeple is not present on the scored structure (reason why he doesn't get wainwright points for his own meeple in that quarter), then the castle meeple also can't get coiners points for his own meeple on that quarter, as the castle meeple is not present on the city. Only Leipzig bonus for monasteries can be applied to the castle lord for his own meeple on the bookbinders quarter.

Correct ?

But one thing remains unclear with this order of castle's scoring: Why can't a mayor on a castle take points from roads, monasteries, city without pennants, if he's simply scoring as much points as the player having the most points on the structure, and he's also not considered as present on the structure itself ?

Cheers !
« Last Edit: August 30, 2019, 01:15:23 PM by corinthiens13 »


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