Author Topic: Order of play in french  (Read 1620 times)

Offline corinthiens13

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Re: Order of play in french
« Reply #30 on: July 24, 2019, 10:09:20 PM »
Hi,

Thanks for your clarifications, I changed the order of step 3, and moved the Solovei Razboynik action to "at any moment of your turn", you have to move any meeple on a road connected to Solovei's tile to the tree.

I'm looking forward to my next m├ęga-Carcassonne game to point other issues  ;)

Cheers
Order of play in french with every major expansions, mini expansions and promo tiles :
http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?action=downloads;sa=view;down=346

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Re: Order of play in french
« Reply #31 on: July 25, 2019, 11:33:31 AM »
Hi corinthiens13,

My pleasure. I love this type of questions!!!

Actually there are only 4 moments so far where the "Solovei Razboynik action" may take place:
* After placing a tunnel token
* After placing a tile
* After placing a ferry
* After moving a ferry

Keep me posted of any "findings" during your games.  :))

Cheers!

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Re: Order of play in french
« Reply #32 on: July 25, 2019, 02:05:45 PM »
Hi corinthiens13,

I just realized the scoreboard on page 5 is a C1 version.

Cheers!

Offline corinthiens13

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Re: Order of play in french
« Reply #33 on: July 25, 2019, 02:08:39 PM »
Hi,

I already have a new question : how does ferries, crop circles and Solovei Razboynik interact with the labyrinth with advanced rules?

My guess is that during the game (except when scoring), the labyrinth tile is considered like a village, with four different segments (moving a ferry is allowed only if the tile placed is connected to the ferry without going through the labyrinth / meeples are sent to Solovei only if they're connected to Solovei without going through the labyrinth / adding a meeple with crop circle is allowed only on road segments connected without going through the labyrinth to another same color meeple )?

For the scoreboard, I couldn't find a C2 picture of an entire scoreboard, I'm still searching.

Cheers

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Re: Order of play in french
« Reply #34 on: July 25, 2019, 03:52:05 PM »
Hi corinthiens13,

Of course there are no official clarifications for these interactions. Let's see what we can do with what we have  ;)

Labyrinths behave like a roundabouts rather than 4-way crossings (with a village). This is clear for the basic rules but the advanced rules allow each road branch to be claimed independently from each other and even the labyrinth tile itself (as if there were 5 different claimable sub-features).

Additionally, in this quiz by Kettlefish with the Labyrinth advanced rules, you can see that features such as Inns and German Cathedrals affect the whole road network spawning from the labyrinth.

http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=2584.msg37828#msg37828

So a road network with a labyrinth behaves like a road with several branches.

As a conclusion:
1. Adding a tile to a road network with a labyrinth would allow you to move the first ferry on every branch you meet when following the road branches even at the other end of a labyrinth. Again, consider the labyrinth a special roundabout.
2. The Solovei Razboynik tile would affect a whole road network containing a labyrinth tile.
3. Crop circles would allow you to deploy a meeple next to a previously placed one or yours on the road network. This includes the labyrinth tile that behaves as a special roundabout, that is, a special road tile.

In a nutshell, if you consider the labyrinth tile as a roundabout tile, all your doubts would be resolved.

Regarding the C2 scoreboard image, please find attached a sample as shown on the cundco.de list.

Cheers!

Offline corinthiens13

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Re: Order of play in french
« Reply #35 on: July 26, 2019, 02:35:44 AM »
Hi,

Thanks for the scoreboard picture. I'll add it in the next update.

For the labyrinth, I'd have a different understanding, what do you think of :

As we may place meeples on each branch, the reason would be that anyone on a branch cannot see the other branches (or cannot see if the other branches are part of the same road or not), so they can't do any action past the labyrinth (ferries, crop circles and solovei), as they don'know they're on the same road. So the labyrinth is used like a village (except that we may place a meeple not only on each branches, but also on the labyrinth itself).

And then for scoring, as mentioned in the quiz by Kettlefish, the labyrinth is treated like a roundabout.

For basic rules it's clear the labyrinth is used like a roundabout.

Cheers!
« Last Edit: July 26, 2019, 05:06:01 AM by corinthiens13 »

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Re: Order of play in french
« Reply #36 on: July 26, 2019, 10:54:11 AM »
Hi corinthiens13,

It is an interesting option but IMHO I don't think it was the original intent of the rules by HiG.

Let me elaborate...

I've been revisiting anything I could find on the advanced rules for the Labyrinth. I found this quote from Just a Bill that was part of a tread discussing translation of the The Labyrinth Advanced Rules from German into English by forum member InTheDark. You can find the final document here:

http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?action=downloads;sa=view;down=339

So they where discussing the rules Just a Bill came to this conclusion (I posted something similar as well):

The single-tile labyrinth and its four multi-tile branches are treated as five "sub-roads" for deployment and occupation, but the whole thing is treated as a single road for completion and scoring.


This would be a lean summary of the advanced rules. The to key snippets that describe the nature of the labyrinth with the advanced rules is the overlapping of these two principles found in the rules:

1. Basic rules: The labyrinth is not a crossing; all outgoing roads are interconnected
2. Advance rules: Since the labyrinth makes the connections of the roads quite unmanageable, the placing of meeples is regulated differently in this variant.

So, statement #1 always applies. As we agreed the labyrinth behaves like a roundabout in the basic rules. But in the advanced rules, statement #2 announces placing meeples will follow a special ruling. So the subtlety here is that only meeple placement is affected but the road network with the labyrinth operates normally in all the other aspects since the labyrinth always behaves like a regular roundabout, as statement #1 indicated.

So all in all, the advanced rules apply a distortion to the way meeples can be placed on a road network with a labyrinth, but the whole network behaves as a regular multi-branch road. Taking this into consideration, the interaction of a road network with labyrinths and/or roundabouts with any expansion is quite straightforward and seamless.

What do you think?

Cheers!
« Last Edit: July 26, 2019, 12:05:05 PM by Meepledrone »

Offline corinthiens13

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Re: Order of play in french
« Reply #37 on: July 26, 2019, 02:40:32 PM »
Hi,

I'm ok with this, but I think both understandings could be used:

1. Basic rules: The labyrinth is not a crossing; all outgoing roads are interconnected for completing and scoring the road
2. Advance rules: Since the labyrinth makes the connections of the roads quite unmanageable, the placing of meeples as well as any other actions (other than completing and scoring) is regulated differently in this variant

As base game doesn't include any of those "other actions", there was no reason to mention anything else than placing a meeple that'd be regulated differently.

So we have to choose one understanding, yours takes the base rule more literally and expanding it to other expansions's actions, mine is more taking the labyrinth's essence to immagine its interaction with other expansions. That's interesting  ;)

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Re: Order of play in french
« Reply #38 on: July 27, 2019, 02:17:04 AM »
Hi corinthiens13,

As I said earlier, we are on uncharted waters as no official ruling exists to clarify the behavior of the road network when combined with ferries and Solovei Razboynik.

NOTE: Regarding crop circles, I didn't catch what you were suggesting. Deploying meeples with crop circles just requires a previous meeple placed a feature of the right type. There is no majority restriction or any other limitation. Are you suggesting a limitation due to the presence of the labyrinth tile? Maybe that you cannot add a meeple to the labyrinth tile itself and only to the road branches?

So for me the solution is that the players have to decide the rules you want to apply in a game:

1. Basic rules:
* The labyrinth works as a regular roundabout tile.
* The road network behaves as one normal feature.

2. Advanced rules - Literal rules:
* The labyrinth works as a regular roundabout tile.
* The road network behaves as one normal feature except for meeple placement (it defines 5 sub-features that can be claimed independently.)
* They provide an additional scoring mechanism for meeples.

3. Extended rules - Labyrinth extended rules:
* The labyrinth works as a special roundabout tile.
* The road network behaves as one normal feature for completion, but for meeple placement and other interactions it considers 5 independent sub-features, namely ferries, Solovei Razboynik, and crop circles (?).
* They provide an additional scoring mechanism for meeples.

I love your interpretation and no doubt I will try it myself, but IMHO, option #3 is a bit far-stretched, and HiG's original intent was just to give a tongue-in-cheek concession to meeple placement and an extra scoring mechanism. It would be interesting if HiG would provide a clarification. They could even surprise us all.

In any case, it is up to players to decide which rules to use and it's is great to offer them all the options so they may enjoy the most of the game.  ^-^

Cheers!

Offline corinthiens13

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Re: Order of play in french
« Reply #39 on: July 27, 2019, 03:02:07 AM »
Hi,

I love the option that players have to choose between the three rules.

For crop circle, the question is, for rule option 2 (as it's a meeple placement) and 3:
If a player places the club crop circle and choses the "add a meeple to a feature where you already have a meeple" option. A player having a meeple on one of the labyrinth sub-features can place a meeple only on the same sub-feature where he's having his previous meeple, or can he place his meeple on any of the 5 sub-features?
This doesn't change anything for the road's completition, but it may change something if towers or the dragon are near some of the sub-features.

Cheers!

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Re: Order of play in french
« Reply #40 on: July 27, 2019, 06:33:25 AM »
Hi,

I love the option that players have to choose between the three rules.

Hi corinthiens13,

That's my point. Why not? Let players pick the one they prefer.  O0

For crop circle, the question is, for rule option 2 (as it's a meeple placement) and 3:
If a player places the club crop circle and choses the "add a meeple to a feature where you already have a meeple" option. A player having a meeple on one of the labyrinth sub-features can place a meeple only on the same sub-feature where he's having his previous meeple, or can he place his meeple on any of the 5 sub-features?
This doesn't change anything for the road's completition, but it may change something if towers or the dragon are near some of the sub-features.

Cheers!

Ohhhh, I see. This is a tricky matter.

What rules are you following for Crop Circles. I've been reviewing the version in German (HiG), English (ZMG) and Spanish (Devir) and I was disappointed by the discrepancies in the ZMG rules.

Besides that HiG and Devir consider the placement of additional meeples and option whereas ZMG considers this action mandatory, the ZMG rules assume that you may place the additional meeple on any tile of the feature where your previous meeple was. On the other hand, the original rules for C1 and C2 (and the Spanish ones too) state you place your additional meeple next to a previously placed one.

If we apply the official HiG rules, labyrinths would not have any influence on crop circles.

What is your take on this.

Cheers!

PS: I added some information and clarifications on the discrepancies in ZMG rules for Crop Circles to WICA:
* Crop Circles for C2: http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Crop_Circles
* Summary of Rule Sets & Changes: http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Summary_of_Rule_Sets_%26_Changes

Offline corinthiens13

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Re: Order of play in french
« Reply #41 on: July 27, 2019, 09:23:02 AM »
Hi,

I'm using the WICA rule ;) (We MUST remove a meeple or we MUST place a meeple on a feature where we already have one).

But then, for rules option 2 and 3, it has to be clarified on which sub-features of the labyrinth we may place a meeple. For rule option 3 I'd say we may place it only on the same sub-feature, as the labyrinth is considered as a village except for completition. For option 2, as we are "placing a meeple", I'd also say we may only place it on a sub-feature where we already have a meeple of the same color?

1. Basic rules:
* The labyrinth works as a regular roundabout tile.
* The road network behaves as one normal feature.

2. Advanced rules - Literal rules:
* The labyrinth works as a regular roundabout tile.
* The road network behaves as one normal feature except for meeple placement (it defines 5 sub-features that can be claimed independently.), also for meeples placed with a crop circle?
* They provide an additional scoring mechanism for meeples.

3. Extended rules - Labyrinth extended rules:
* The labyrinth works as a special roundabout tile.
* The road network behaves as one normal feature for completion, but for meeple placement and other interactions it considers 5 independent sub-features, namely ferries, Solovei Razboynik, and crop circles (?).
* They provide an additional scoring mechanism for meeples.

Online Meepledrone

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Re: Order of play in french
« Reply #42 on: July 27, 2019, 04:46:47 PM »
Hi corinthiens13,

I just updated WICA to give preference to the HiG rules over the discrepancies introduced by ZMG in Minis #2, #6 and #7.

Until now, the ZMG discrepancies were part of the main text and the official HiG rules were in the footnotes. I have rearranged the text to fix the situation, so the HiG rules are now in the main text and the ZMG discrepancies are in the footnotes. This is the regular treatment for discrepancies in the CAR. Sorry if this was misleading. 

Despite the ZMG discrepancy, the Crop Circles official rules by HiG state that Option A allows players to add a meeple next to a previously placed one. So the new meeple would always share the same feature and tile.

This said, you may understand now why I was commenting that labyrinths do not have any influence on crop circles: Crop circles can only deploy a meeple to a tile with another meeple belonging the player.

The German rules and the Spanish rules are the same but the English rules turned out to be more "imaginative" that the original ones. I couldn't check the Big Box 6 rules in any other languages.



So getting back to the various version of Labyrinth rules, if we remove the Crop Circles effect, we will have:

1. Basic rules:
* The labyrinth works as a regular roundabout tile.
* The road network behaves as one normal feature.

2. Advanced rules - Literal rules:
* The labyrinth works as a regular roundabout tile.
* The road network behaves as one normal feature except for meeple placement (it defines 5 sub-features that can be claimed independently.)
* They provide an additional scoring mechanism for meeples.

3. Extended rules - Labyrinth extended rules:
* The labyrinth works as a special roundabout tile.
* The road network behaves as one normal feature for completion, but for meeple placement and other interactions it considers 5 independent sub-features, namely ferries and Solovei Razboynik.
* They provide an additional scoring mechanism for meeples.

Let me know your thoughts.

Cheers!

PS: WICA pages updated to reflect the official rules in the main text and to add some more clarifications:
* Mini #2 - The Messages for C2: http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/The_Messages
* Mini #6 - The Robbers for C2: http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/The_Robbers
* Mini #7 - Crop Circles for C2: http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Crop_Circles
* Summary of Rule Sets & Changes: http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Summary_of_Rule_Sets_%26_Changes

Offline corinthiens13

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Re: Order of play in french
« Reply #43 on: July 29, 2019, 02:34:23 AM »
Hi,

I'm ok with the 3 rules now. I corrected Crop Circles rules and messages, robbers were already ok.

For the messages, you note that you can score 0 points. This scenario may cover:
- A highwayman on road with an inn
- A knight in city with a cathedral
- A knight on besieged city
- A farmer in field with no completed cities
- A mayor in city with no pennants
- A mayor on castle token
- A lord/lady on castle token
- A meeple on tower
Of course, choosing to do this rather than take the 2 points in the seal would be an odd tactical decision...

But if we have to look at the majority, then there's another scenario:
 - You do not have the majority

Right ?

Cheers !

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Re: Order of play in french
« Reply #44 on: July 29, 2019, 03:20:29 AM »
Hi corinthiens13,

I removed initially that case as you are supposed to pick a meeple in a feature where you have the majority. However, you are right you may choose to score a feature with no majority (imagine you need badly to get a meepleback and you have to make this sacrifice.)

So, the missing line is back where it belongs.

Thanks for the heads-up!!!

Cheers!


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