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Response to questions related to Condensed rules
« on: March 30, 2019, 03:23:29 PM »
Hi tothederby and everyone,

I create this thread to keep track of all the questions asked by tothederby in a previous thread. See:

http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=4234.0

Some of the questions are responded in other threads making a bit difficult to track, so I suggest to use this thread as a hub for them if answered elsewhere, keeping just a summary here. I provide responses to the remaining questions below but if further discussion is needed, a separate thread can be created and added to the hub.   

The specific questions I have (in the order they appear in the pdf) are the following:

1. Messengers: if a message tile is drawn and it is the 'Add a landscape' tile, you can place the drawn landscape tile and place a meeple on it as normal.  Do you also score the tile?

>> CORRECT. You perform a full turn sequence: place the tile, place a meeple optionally and score any completed features. 

See discussion here:

http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=4236.0


2. Robbers: when an opponent's scoring meeple or messenger moves during a turn that is not yours, can you still score points (or can you only score points during your turn)?

>> CORRECT. You can rob points always, even it it is not your turn.

See discussion here:

http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=4245.0


3. Wheel of Fortune scoring event: there are two parts to awarding points for a Wheel of Fortune event (acting on the instructions for the particular sector of the wheel and points for where the followers sit on the crown spaces). For Messengers, are these 2 different and separate scoring events or only one?

>> There may be two separate scoring events but they are part of the same scoring round.

See discussion here:

http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=4246.0


4. Spread the plague by placing a flea: I believe this cannot happen at any time during a turn, but rather it must happen any time after drawing a tile.  This is because of this sentence in the rules: "The player who drew the [plague source] tile may not place a flea token in this turn, having instead the privilege of choosing where the Outbreak will occur."

>> The only limitation defined officially is that you cannot place a flea token in the same turn you placed a plague source tile. Here, when the rules refer to a "turn" there are also considering a double turn, as can be seen here:

http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Traders_and_Builders_(1st_edition)#The_Double_Turn

The previous consideration can generate even more conflicting cases as in the following example with a double turn:
1. First part of the double turn:
   - You place a normal tile and extend a city with a builder
   - You decide to spread one flea token from a current active source.
2. Second part of the double turn:
   - You draw and place a new plague source tile (CONFLICT!)

As you can see The Plague rules are not very precise, so IMHO the best course of action is to play the expansion and follow the rules, but in case of conflict due to "external" circumstances, just move on and don't look back. 


5. Likewise a bridge can only be built any time after placing a tile (the tile needs to be paced before the bridge can be placed).

>> This consideration was made for C1 as it was not clearly stipulated. I think this was an overkill as you have to take into account restrictions imposed by feature completion and figure placement. For example:
* Are you going to place a bridge after all features are considered complete so you have a finished "road" that you cannot score?
* Are you going to limit your figure placement because you placed a bridge during the 3. Scoring a feature?

On the other hand, C2 rules limit the placement of bridges to the "1. Place Tile" phase. I would assume this is the official ruling for bridges as of today.


6. La Porxada
6a) SWAPPING: what does it mean to swap meeples? does this mean swap places with each other? or does it mean to take possession of the other player's meeple in their respective current locations? or does it mean both? Swapping places may be illegal (a barn cannot be placed in a city etc.) so it would seem to point to 'taking possession' with meeples remaining in situ.  Any insights or thoughts?
6b) TAGGING: How do you tag or track that a different coloured meeple now belongs to you (and the other player)? This I guess is more an issue if a normal meeple is swapped.

>> Swapping = exchanging locations of two meeples in play if the result provides a valid placement. There are some open issues pending regarding rules about final bonus scoring.

See discussion here:

http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=4237.0


7. Princess & the knight.  The new rules use the word 'may' not 'must': "you may remove one knight of your choice (even your own)" and I have adopted this (I note the recent thread discussion on this).  From this, I consider this princess action becomes part of the 'Move the Wood' phase 1 - there is no longer a need to insist the action is taken before making the extensive choice of other Move the Wood actions and indeed by moving it into 'Move the Wood' it extend the strategic choices of the active player.

>> The removal of a knight by the princess can be included in the Move Wood phase as you suggest. Actually, HiG did it in the Order of Play included in Big Box 3, but the written rules keep including this action in step 1. Place tile with some consequences during step 2. Place a meeple.

See discussion here (it is intertwined with other topics):

http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=4233.msg62341#msg62341

Note: WICA (as of today) and the CAR follow the written rules for their Order of Play sections.


8. Excluded features for deployment. 
8a) I have said for flier and magic portal movement, fairy placement, dragon movement, redeployment out of the City of Carcassonne and placement of special & neutral figures (except the Count to Carcassonne), then meeples and figures cannot be deployed to the City of Carcassone, City of Leipzig, Wheel of Fortune crown spaces and expansion 8 castles.  Is this correct?
8b) Some further details are shown in the table of the attached pdf on page 8.  Are the assertions made in the table correct?

>> Responses to your questions:

8a) The wording of this question seems a bit confusing to me. I tried to reply slicing it in several parts. I hope that I didn't miss the mark:
1. Magic portals or fliers cannot be used to deploy meeples to the City of Carcassone, City of Leipzig (*), Wheel of Fortune crown spaces and expansion 8 castles.
2a. fairy placement cannot happen in City of Carcassone, City of Leipzig (*), Wheel of Fortune crown spaces.
2b. fairy placement can happen in expansion 8 castles. Please check the interaction of castles with P&D in the following page:

http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Bridges,_Castles_and_Bazaars#Castles_2

3. The dragon cannot move inside the City of Carcassone, City of Leipzig (*), Wheel of Fortune crown spaces and expansion 8 castles.
4. The redeployment out of the City of Carcassonne does not allow to place meeples on City of Leipzig (*), Wheel of Fortune crown spaces and expansion 8 castles.
5. The placement of special & neutral figures (except the Count to Carcassonne) is not allowed in the City of Carcassone, City of Leipzig (*), Wheel of Fortune crown spaces and expansion 8 castles (except the fairy).
6. Meeples allowed in City of Carcassone, City of Leipzig, Wheel of Fortune crown spaces and expansion 8 castles can only be deployed as per the given rules for each expansion.

The cases related to the City of Leipzig (marked with *) are not officially confirmed, but should be considered valid due to the similarities with the City of Carcassonne or the Wheel of Fortune, for example.

8b) Comments about the table:
- The fairy can be placed next to a meeple on a castle
- Towers should be allowed to capture meeples in a bathhouse, Vodyanoy's lake or Solovei Razboynik's tree. There is no official confirmation, but why it should be prohibited if those features are on a tile with no barriers or protection.
- Magic portals or fliers are not used to place a meeple on top of a tower. It is direct placement.
- The meeple can not be redeployed to Baba Yaga's hut from the City of Carcassonne.

I would mark in the table that some cases have limitations, for example the meeples that can be placed on top of a tower.

Note: If you share with me an editable Word version of the Condensed Rules document, I could add some annotations.


9. Completed field: there is a reference in the rules for shepherds that says: "Exception: If any player completes a field with shepherds and sheep by fully surrounding it by roads and cities, immediately resolve the Guide the flock to the stable action for that field."  Does this mean that a field can be completed before the end of the game?  And if so, does it mean it can be (should be) scored (through the act of completion & needing to resolve a completed feature) before the end of the game?

>> The wording of the rules is misleading: when a field is surrounded (by cities and roads) and cannot be extended any more, a special rule is applied to avoid shepherds to be trapped without an option to score. The field is not considered a completed feature and it is not scored at this point.

See clarification on this case here: 

http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Hills_%26_Sheep#cite_note-1


10. Expansion 8 castle completion: can an expansion 8 castle that was created on first placement of a tile be completed on a builder repeat turn?  Or do you have to wait until a brand new turn before completing it?  Or could you even create it and complete it in the same turn / cycle?  I can’t find any reference in ZMG to a rule that says you need to wait until the next turn or cycle. However, from CAR 7.4 in footnote 304 it says: “The RGG version of the rules states that the castle scores only “when the first feature … in the vicinity of the castle is later completed” (emphasis added) – while a subsequent turn is not specifically mentioned, it seems apparent in both rule sets that a feature that is completed on the turn that the castle is built does not allow the castle to score.”  But in CAR 7.4 on page 99 it says: “The follower in the castle always receives points for the next structure to be completed. It may not be left in play in order to receive points for a structure which might be completed later.”  To satisfy this latter point, if on first tile placement you complete two features, the first of which you convert to a castle and the second of which then completes the castle, do you not need to complete the castle and score it, all in the one turn?

>> When the rules mention that a castle can be scored in a "later turn", they should be interpreted as meaning "next scoring round" (or in general, after placing a new tile by any player.)

This makes even more sense, if the active player converts a city into a castle during a turn combining nested tile auctions and/or double turns coming from dispatches or the builder (or even the Saint Nicholas scoreboard.) If you would like to apply the "later turn" constraint literally in this complex case, no other player's nested turn for auctioned tiles should be allowed to score the castle either, as everything is happening as a parenthesis within the active player's turn.

Therefore it is reasonable to allow castle scoring to happen in the builder turn if the castle was created in the first part of the turn (one tile was at least placed after the castle creation). 

See discussion here:

http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=4239.0


11. Scoring order of completed features: I’ve seen references to “Each player receiving points chooses the order in which features resolve.”  I’ve struggled with this.  If more than one player is receiving points from a number of different features that have completed, who decides which feature is scored first etc.?  I have assumed the order for scoring is decided only by the active player.  I hope this is correct?

>> There is no official rule. It is a reasonable option to let the active player decide the scoring order of the features involved.

See discussion starting with this post (it is mixed with other topics):

http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=4233.msg62341#msg62341


12. Redeployment from City of Carcassonne: 
12a) Can an abbot meeple from the cathedral district be redeployed to a garden? 
12b) Can a meeple from the cathedral district be redeployed to Baba Yaga’s hut?

>> The answer to both questions is NO.
12a) The rules assume the deployment to a monastery (or equivalent monastic feature). A garden is not considered in the rules.
12b) Baba Yaga's hut is not a monastery (or equivalent monastic feature).

See discussion here:

http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=4242.0


13. Deployment to Leipzig.  It would be helpful to (exhaustively) define what does not break a road connection to Leipzig and what does. I have presumed small village, house, crossroads, road junction, trees or other incidental or minor feature (such as fruit trees, bazaar, bath house or festival) do not break the connection.  I have presumed cities, towers / tower foundations, lakes without a ferry connection, Bogatyr stone, Solovei Razboynik tree, acrobat spaces, circus spaces, crop circles, watch towers, shrines, abbeys, all types of monasteries, castles (German or expansion 8), German cathedrals, the city of Carcassonne, the Wheel of Fortune and the school do break the connection.  I am puzzled why the footnotes on Wikicarpedia suggest monasteries do not break the road connection – I have presumed they do.  Does this all work?

>> My recommendation is to stick to the basic rules. There is no ambiguity in their definition: small village, house, crossroads, road junction and trees. Beyond that point, it is pure speculation.

See discussion starting with this post:

http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=4233.msg62333#msg62333


14. Watchtowers: does an expansion 8 castle qualify as a completed feature for scoring watchtowers?

>> A castle cannot trigger a watchtower scoring by itself: either the watchtower scoring is triggered by a completed feature containing a watchtower (e.g. a completed small city that can turn into a castle) or by a completed feature containing a watchtower in a castle fief (that will make the castle score.) 

The completion of a castle as a result of a small city with a watchtower will no trigger again the watchtower scoring, as a castle is a different feature. It is not a city anymore (A precedent for this is how siege tiles in castles are not considered when scoring farms.)

Other consequences of castles not being a city anymore or not being placed on a particular tile are the following:
* City segments under the castle token cannot be considered for watchtower bonus points.
* Meeples on castles cannot be considered for watchtower bonus points.

All of this is a consequence of the rules Expansion 8 and The Watchtowers, although there is not an official confirmation from HiG (and there will not be any as per the disclaimer included int The Watchtower rules.)


15. Scoring Leipzig: If you have a meeple in the Bookbinders quarter, do you score for special monastery functioning as a monastery, abbey tile, Darmstadt church, shrine or Baba Yaga’s hut.

>> Only monastic buildings are considered: monasteries, abbeys, shrines, special monasteries with a meeple as a monk, and Darmstadt churches. Baba Yaga's hut is not a monastery though it has some similarities.


16. Scoring Messages: With each new expansion added, there now seems to be quite a few scoring events during each Step 7 of the order of play (Leipzig, watchtowers, ringmaster points, teacher, fairy).  Does not each one of these separately represent a scoring event for the purposes of messenger scoring?  I am sure I’m missing a vital rule element that would make sense of this for me.

>> Scoring events are grouped in scoring rounds in each step of a turn sequence. After all the scoring events are evaluated in a scoring round, scoring features the position of the scoring figures will determine what players draw one dispatch.

See discussion here:

http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=4246.0


17. Besieged city.  Can only one knight escape through one monastery per turn (ie. The monastery once used is exhausted as an escape route that turn)?

>> One knight can escape a city through a monastery each part of a double turn as per an official clarification from 3/2015. The CAR included this clarification (see footnote 348) but the Order of Play was not updated accordingly and followed an outdated ruling. See the following footnote in this regard (equivalent to footnote 348 in the CAR):

http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Besiegers_Cathars_Siege_(1st_edition)#cite_ref-8

Additionally, there is no limitation in the rules about the number of times a monastery can be used to remove knights from a sieged city.


18. Tiles next to monasteries: A German castle tile counts as one tile in completing a monastery (and reduces the score from 9 to 8 on completion).  Is this also true if the 4x4 wheel of fortune tile is next to a monastery (reducing the completion score to 6)? Or one of the City of Carcassonne 2x3 tiles?

>> This is true for double-size tiles such as German castles and the City of Leipzig, but it does not apply to the Wheel of Fortune or the City of Carcassonne. If you check their tiles, there are lines that define distinctive tiles in the periphery of the 2x3 tiles and the 4x4 tile. So, the surroundings of the City of Carcassonne and the area outside the Wheel of Fortune are to be considered regular tiles.

You can confirm all these facts as well, if you check the interactions with other expansions that:
* Allow you to deploy meeples with a flier or a magic portal to features on the City of Carcassonne or the Wheel of Fortune.
* Allow you to move the dragon around the City of Carcassonne or the Wheel of Fortune.
See page:

http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Count,_King_and_Robber#The_city_of_Carcassonne_and_the_count_of_Carcassonne_2

This was clear in the C1 version of the City of Carcassonne, as it was made out of 12 individual tiles numbered on their back from 1 to 12. Creating 2x3 tiles or 4x4 tiles was just an aesthetic option or a more practical placement alternative.

See here the tile ditribution for C1 The Count of Carcassonne:

http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/The_Count_of_Carcassonne_(1st_edition)#Tile_distribution

See here the tile distribution for C2 CK&R:

http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Count,_King_and_Robber#Tile_distribution

See here various versions of the Wheel of Fortune 4x4 tile:

http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/The_Wheel_of_Fortune_(1st_edition)#Starting_tiles_.5B9.5D


Hope this helps.

Cheers!

Linkback: http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=4254.0

Offline tothederby

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Re: Response to questions related to Condensed rules
« Reply #1 on: March 31, 2019, 12:23:41 PM »
Thanks so much Meepledrone
Please find my word version attached (and the .ppt file for my flow chart)
Kind regards,
tothederby

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Re: Response to questions related to Condensed rules
« Reply #2 on: March 31, 2019, 02:14:50 PM »
Hi tothederby,

I'll start with the Word document. ;)

BTW, I noticed the last PDF document you uploaded was from 19/03 but the Word doc is from 17/03. Is this okay?

Cheers!

Offline tothederby

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Re: Response to questions related to Condensed rules
« Reply #3 on: April 01, 2019, 11:29:38 AM »
Yes my filing is not great but what I've attached is the latest iteration from around 22 March taking your inputs and feedback into account (but not the thread above).Thanks again Meepledrone.

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Re: Response to questions related to Condensed rules
« Reply #4 on: April 02, 2019, 12:35:30 AM »
Hi tothederby!!!

I could see last night the Word file is newer. It includes additional info on scoring rounds, for example. I'm currently making annotations by hand on a printed copy (even while commuting  :o.) I'll integrate them in the latest Word file and will get to you when done.

I don't know if you noticed that you can print any page in WICA and even generate a PDF. I'm telling you this because I was thinking that we could integrate all the extra info you added to the Condensed Rules to the Order of Play and add a flag that would allow you to get an bare bones Order Of Play or a full Condensed Rules doc you could customized to include only the expansions you want and then generate your PDF accordingly.

As a side note, we can also create pages by combining some of them too... name the possibilities to produce a single document. Maj.Frost did some preliminary tests to produce a single PDF combining C1 manual pages to test how to get an updated CAR some months ago. Page breaks was the pending task back then to make a nice doc. But I'm disgressing here...

What do you think?

Cheers!

Online Meepledrone

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Re: Response to questions related to Condensed rules
« Reply #5 on: May 05, 2019, 04:08:17 PM »
Hi tothederby!

Thanks so much Meepledrone
Please find my word version attached (and the .ppt file for my flow chart)
Kind regards,
tothederby

Here you are an annotated version of your Condensed Rules document. It took me a while to review it on paper and later to transfer my notes back to the document. Regarding the tables, I added all my notes to one single comment as they are pasted as images and couldn't annotate particular cells.

In the process, I've been reviewing too some topics as a result of your open questions and updated WICA accordingly.

Let me know your thoughts.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2019, 04:26:14 PM by Meepledrone »


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