Author Topic: Order of play - Castle (expansion 8) completion  (Read 147 times)

Offline tothederby

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Order of play - Castle (expansion 8) completion
« on: March 13, 2019, 04:29:34 PM »
Can a castle (of the expansion 8 variety) that was created on first placement of a tile be completed on that same turn?

Specifically, if on first tile placement you complete two features.  You choose to 'score' the first feature which is a town / small city that you choose to convert to a castle in the first pass through of Step 7 of the order of play (Resolve Completed Features).  The second completed feature is in the fief / vicinity of the new castle. Do you not need to complete the castle and score it, all in that one turn? 

I can’t find any reference in ZMG to a rule that says you need to wait until the next turn or even builder repeat turn. However, from CAR 7.4 in footnote 304 on page 98 it says: “The RGG version of the rules states that the castle scores only “when the first feature … in the vicinity of the castle is later completed” (emphasis added) – while a subsequent turn is not specifically mentioned, it seems apparent in both rule sets that a feature that is completed on the turn that the castle is built does not allow the castle to score.” 

But in CAR 7.4 on page 99 it says: “The follower in the castle always receives points for the next structure to be completed. It may not be left in play in order to receive points for a structure which might be completed later.

Linkback: http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=4239.0

Online Meepledrone

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Re: Order of play - Castle (expansion 8) completion
« Reply #1 on: March 16, 2019, 10:46:30 AM »
Hi tothederby!

I checked the HiG and ZMG rules for the New Edition of Exp.8 - BC&B and it seems ZMG shortened the text and left out some relevant information. Let me explain by comparing the equivalent sentences in both manuals:

ZMG C2 BC&B rules say:
===
--- (Original English rules)
Placing a castle does not score you any points. Instead, you score points when a neigboring feature is completed.
===

HiG C2 BC&B rules say:
===
--- (Original German rules)
Beim Bau der Burg bekommst du keine Punkte. Du bekommt dann Punkte für deine Burg, wenn das erste Bauwerk (Kloster, Stadt oder Straße) in der Umgebung deiner Burg in einem späteren Zug abgeschlossen wird.

--- (English translated rules - using Deepl.com)
You won't get any points when you build the castle. You get points for your castle if the first building (monastery, city or road) in the vicinity of your castle is completed in a later turn.
===

Oooops!!!

So, in this case, RGG was more faithful to the HiG rules than ZMG, and no feature completed at the same time as a castle can be scored. Castles can only score features completed in their fief in later turns.

I will add a note about this to WICA.

Cheers!
« Last Edit: March 16, 2019, 11:03:57 AM by Meepledrone »

Offline tothederby

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Re: Order of play - Castle (expansion 8) completion
« Reply #2 on: March 16, 2019, 12:56:51 PM »
Thanks again Meepledrone

Do you think you can score it on a builder repeat cycle / turn or an auction repeat cycle?  Or does it really mean your turn?

Cheers

Online Meepledrone

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Re: Order of play - Castle (expansion 8) completion
« Reply #3 on: March 16, 2019, 08:20:56 PM »
Hi tothederby,

Thanks again Meepledrone

Do you think you can score it on a builder repeat cycle / turn or an auction repeat cycle?  Or does it really mean your turn?

Cheers

Good question...

We have the following rules snippets:
  • RGG rules for BB3 state that "The follower on the castle always scores the points for the next completed feature." In this case, no later turn is explicitly specified.
  • HiG rules for Exp 8 state that "You get points for your castle if the first building (monastery, city or road) in the vicinity of your castle is completed in a later turn."
  • A clarification from 06/2013 states that "The 'double turn' is really a single turn with two parts. Both parts of the double-turn are identical, but actions that only occur once per turn (such as fairy bonus point and prisoner buy-back) still only happen once."
So the whole thing is open to interpretation as there is not an official clarification for this case.
  • Strictly speaking, a castle created in the first part of a double turn could not be scored until the next player's turn. The builder-turn is the second part of the same turn, so any completed feature in its fief would not trigger the scoring of the castle.
  • Applying common sense, the "next turn" restriction should be interpreted as next scoring round for any player (including the active player), similar to the RGG rule.
Imagine we have a complex scenario where we have a double turn combining:
  • A bazaar auction with nested double turns and additional delayed auctions from additional bazaar tiles drawn and placed during builder turns
  • Message #4 dispatches, involving additional tile placement, meeple placement and scoring
  • Additional double turns from the Saint Nicholas scoreboard
An example involving bazaars and double turns is next:

--- P1---
P1: Begin turn
P1: Draw and place bazaar tile (perform first part of double turn.)
P1: Place figures, if any
P1: Score tile - P1 completed a small city and creates a castle (*)
** // Start pending bazaars // **
P1: Draw the tiles (still face-down)
P1: Turn tiles face-up and perform the auction
  ( Start delaying any new bazaars )
  P2: Place auctioned tile (*)
  P2: Builder-turn, if applicable
  P3: Place auctioned tile
  P3: Builder-turn, if applicable
  P4: Place auctioned tile
  P4: Builder-turn, if applicable
  P1: Place auctioned tile
  P1: Builder-turn, if applicable
( Stop delaying any new bazaars )
P2 + P3 + P4 + P1: If player drew and placed a new bazaar in his/her builder turn (pending delayed bazaar)
** Back to // Start pending bazaars // until no pending delayed bazaars **
P1: Perform builder-turn (second part of initial P1's double turn)
P1: End turn
--- P2 ---
P2:Begin turn (*)
...
P2: End Turn

In the example P1's turn involves and bazaar with nested turns for all the players.

Let's assume we apply the strict rules for castles and double turns above (bullet #1). It would mean that the span of steps between the two (*) marks in the example above would not allow any player to trigger the scoring of the castle created by P1 at the beginning of his/her turn. One finished P1's turn, P2 would be allowed to trigger the scoring of P1's castle.  This would not make much sense from my point of view.

If we assume the rules in bullet #2, P1's castle could be triggered as soon as P2's next scoring round marked with (*)

After all these considerations, and lacking any official clarification, I would assume interpretation #2.

Your comments are welcome.

Cheers!

Offline tothederby

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Re: Order of play - Castle (expansion 8) completion
« Reply #4 on: March 20, 2019, 02:04:24 PM »
I am of the same opinion Meepledrone - that your option #2 makes more sense and better connects the various snippets of rules.

If there was a builder repeat cycle (and nothing else - eg. no auction), and a small city was converted into a castle on the 1st cycle before the builder repeat turn, would the next scoring round of features be during that builder repeat turn or would it occur when the next player takes their turn?  I wasn't clear from your example.

Online Meepledrone

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Re: Order of play - Castle (expansion 8) completion
« Reply #5 on: March 20, 2019, 06:14:42 PM »
Hi tothederby,

I am of the same opinion Meepledrone - that your option #2 makes more sense and better connects the various snippets of rules.

If there was a builder repeat cycle (and nothing else - eg. no auction), and a small city was converted into a castle on the 1st cycle before the builder repeat turn, would the next scoring round of features be during that builder repeat turn or would it occur when the next player takes their turn?  I wasn't clear from your example.

With the premise in my previous post, option #2 would dictate that a small city converted into a castle on the 1st part of the turn could be scored in the builder turn, where a new scoring round would happen.

My point with such a baroque example is that all those nested turns by other players would happen in a single player turn even including the active player's trailing builder turn. It wouldn't make sense that other players in nested turns could not score the castle converted by the active player earlier or even that the other players could do it but the active player couldn't. So the conclusion is that the castle could be scored as soon as the round scoring of the builder turn.

The issue here is the ambiguous use of the word turn and the interpretation of the wording used and the intention pursued by HiG. A turn contains a cycle "place tile-place meeple-score feature". A double turn is considered a turn in itself  with two parts that is equivalent to two regular turns back to back skipping those actions that can only happen once in a turn. The second part of the double turn is called sometimes builder turn, so, as you can see, there are arguments to justify the approach you want to follow. The original rules for castles weren't written with the the double turn in mind. The were thinking of regular turns and even in some publishers/languages omitted the "in a later turn" part or used simply "later."

Unless an official clarifications by HiG provides a ruling you can apply the approach you consider reasonable as rules vary between languages and publishers. I'm just trying to apply common sense, if possible.  ;)

Cheers!


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