Author Topic: La Porxada operation  (Read 394 times)

Offline tothederby

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La Porxada operation
« on: March 13, 2019, 12:19:56 PM »
I had a three questions on La Porxada:

1) Swapping meeples: what does it mean to swap meeples? does this mean swap places with each other? or does it mean to take possession of the other player's meeple in their respective current locations? or does it mean both? Swapping places may be illegal (a barn cannot be placed in a city etc.) so it would seem to point to 'taking possession' with meeples remaining in situ. 

2) Tagging meeples: How do you tag or track that a different coloured meeple now belongs to you (and one of yours belongs to the other player)? This I guess is more an issue if a normal meeple is swapped.

3) End Game Scoring: If end game bonus points are chosen, are these bonus points awarded (incomplete city scored as a complete city) in addition to scoring the incomplete features as normal?

Grateful for any answers, insights or thoughts?


Linkback: http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=4237.0

Offline Halfling

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Re: La Porxada operation
« Reply #1 on: March 13, 2019, 12:41:44 PM »
My interpretation of Swapping meeples is that they swap places with each other.  The meeple types do not have to be identical though.  Ownership of the meeples does not change, just their location on the tiles.

Farms, monasteries and roads end game scoring are unchanged if the cities end game scoring is chosen.
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Offline tothederby

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Re: La Porxada operation
« Reply #2 on: March 13, 2019, 01:35:27 PM »
Thanks again Halfling.

I guess if the rule is that they physically swap places (rather than remain in situ but change ownership), then the rules should add a qualifier along the lines of the bold words below for the avoidance of doubt or misunderstanding:

"The player may exchange one of his own followers with a follower of another player, only if the new locations of the swapped players are valid locations for the types of followers swapped" .  This confirms that for instance a mayor in a city cannot be swapped with an abbot in a garden.

I'm still not clear on the scoring but I think that is because I've not explained my question well. At the end of the game, qualifying players score any cities with a knight in them as complete cities rather than incomplete.  For those same knights, do they score any other points eg. do they also score (again) when scoring incomplete cities for all other followers / players?  Is La Porxada bonus to upgrade the knight scoring or is it to allow double scoring?


Since posting the opening of this thread, I have read a post from 2017 by Just a Bill (pasted below) which does cause me to rethink the basic premise of La Porxada.  Does anyone have the full translation from Spanish of the rules?

All this discussion has led me to read the rules for this tile again, and I have to say that they are pretty leaky (poorly defined). Users on BGG asked some (unanswered) questions, and I have others. Unfortunately, the English text in CAR 7.4 is more of a loose paraphrase than an actual translation of the original La Porxada rulesheet (I can read Spanish). For example, "any player who had a knight in the city containing La Porxada may score all unfinished cities containing his or her followers as if they were finished" does not have the same implications as the original, which translates as "all the cities not completed by the player or players who have knights in the city where La Porxada exists [do] count as if they were finished." There are multiple significant differences there: optional vs. mandatory, certain players vs. everyone, counts for scoring only itself vs. counts for scoring anything (or any other purposes). So I'm adding this to my list of things to revisit/discuss for the CAR update.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2017, 01:18:12 PM by Just a Bill  »




In addition to all this I have found 

Offline Meepledrone

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Re: La Porxada operation
« Reply #3 on: March 16, 2019, 10:02:30 AM »
Hi tothederby,

I agree with Halfling.

Please have a look at my comments below.

Thanks again Halfling.

I guess if the rule is that they physically swap places (rather than remain in situ but change ownership), then the rules should add a qualifier along the lines of the bold words below for the avoidance of doubt or misunderstanding:

"The player may exchange one of his own followers with a follower of another player, only if the new locations of the swapped players are valid locations for the types of followers swapped" .  This confirms that for instance a mayor in a city cannot be swapped with an abbot in a garden.

I just added a comment about this restriction to the La Porxada page (see footnote #2.)

http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/La_Porxada_(1st_edition)#cite_note-2

I'm still not clear on the scoring but I think that is because I've not explained my question well. At the end of the game, qualifying players score any cities with a knight in them as complete cities rather than incomplete.  For those same knights, do they score any other points eg. do they also score (again) when scoring incomplete cities for all other followers / players?  Is La Porxada bonus to upgrade the knight scoring or is it to allow double scoring?

The rules state that, if the city with La Porxada is completed, all players with [1] knights in the city containing La Porxada will score all their unfinished cities containing followers as if they were finished.

[1] The original rules say "who have" (in Spanish, Catalonian, French and English)

So there is no double scoring, just that some uncompleted cities will be scored as completed.

Since posting the opening of this thread, I have read a post from 2017 by Just a Bill (pasted below) which does cause me to rethink the basic premise of La Porxada.  Does anyone have the full translation from Spanish of the rules?

All this discussion has led me to read the rules for this tile again, and I have to say that they are pretty leaky (poorly defined). Users on BGG asked some (unanswered) questions, and I have others. Unfortunately, the English text in CAR 7.4 is more of a loose paraphrase than an actual translation of the original La Porxada rulesheet (I can read Spanish). For example, "any player who had a knight in the city containing La Porxada may score all unfinished cities containing his or her followers as if they were finished" does not have the same implications as the original, which translates as "all the cities not completed by the player or players who have knights in the city where La Porxada exists [do] count as if they were finished." There are multiple significant differences there: optional vs. mandatory, certain players vs. everyone, counts for scoring only itself vs. counts for scoring anything (or any other purposes). So I'm adding this to my list of things to revisit/discuss for the CAR update.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2017, 01:18:12 PM by Just a Bill  »

I highlighted in blue and red the words Just a Bill is referring to in his post. The verb tense for me is critical and has been ignored or misinterpreted in English translations. On the other hand, the scoring as completed cities is mandatory, as you can see.

Here you are a translation from Spanish I just put together:

===
La Porxada (Jugar x Jugar - 2010)

La Porxada is a Granollers historical edification. It was built in mid 16th century by order of the town council. It is located in the historic quarter of the city, in fornt of the city hall. In its time it was a cattle market and a place to trade land products. It was destroyed by the Italian air force during the Spanish Civil War and it was rebuilt  later.

The La Porxada tile can be used in two different ways. The player placing it can choose which one he or she prefers.

The first option is that, after placing La Porxada, the active player may swap one of his or her meeples in play by one of another player's meeples, also in play. The chosen player can refuse to carry out the exchange, but then the player has to remove one of his or her meeples for the rest of the game. If the player who places La Porxada has no meeples in play, the swap cannot take place.

The second option is that, at the end of the game, all the uncompleted cities controlled by one or several players who have a knight in the city containing La Porxada will be scored as if they were completed.

A mini-mini-expansion by Oriol Comas i Coma for Klaus-Jürgen Wrede's Carcassone. Illustration by Bascu.
===

So, as you can see, a player may be scoring the city with La Porxada, but this event is independent from the La Porxada second option effect, that would affect all the players with meeples in the city with La Porxada, if finished.

One key issue: how can the city with La Porxada be completed and have knights in it? I highlighted in red the offending verb in present tense. There is a gap here that may be they key to the problem.

I have contacted Oriol Comas for a clarification. Hope to have news soon.

Cheers!

Offline tothederby

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Re: La Porxada operation
« Reply #4 on: March 16, 2019, 12:51:41 PM »
Thanks very much Meepledrone.

Yes what Halfling said about swapping made sense and the caveat helps to clarify any misunderstandings.

Thanks v much for the English translation of the Spanish and your guidance on how to interpret.

It makes sense it is not double scoring, rather just an "upgrade" to the scoring for those meeples in the La Porxada city.

The translation makes it interesting and a bit ambiguous as you say.  Reading it at face value it seems the moment that matters is whether you have a knight in La Porxada city at the end of the game (and not for instance when it completes).

Breaking down your translation pasted again here:
"The second option is that, at the end of the game, all the uncompleted cities controlled by one or several players who have a knight in the city containing La Porxada will be scored as if they were completed."

- you need to have a knight in La Porxada city at the end of the game to qualify for the bonus
- La Porxada city may or may not be one of those incomplete cities - it is not required to be complete to receive the bonus (just need to have a knight in it)
- you need to have (joint or full) control of any incomplete city to qualify for the bonus
- then you may receive the bonus (which is to score those controlled cities as complete instead of as incomplete)
- scoring occurs at the end of the game
 
Is this the right interpretation (pending you response from Oriol Comas)?

Thanks again Meepledrone

Offline Meepledrone

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Re: La Porxada operation
« Reply #5 on: March 16, 2019, 02:40:27 PM »
Hi tothederby!

Thanks very much Meepledrone.

My pleasure. Glad to be helpful  ;D

Yes what Halfling said about swapping made sense and the caveat helps to clarify any misunderstandings.

Thanks v much for the English translation of the Spanish and your guidance on how to interpret.

It makes sense it is not double scoring, rather just an "upgrade" to the scoring for those meeples in the La Porxada city.

The translation makes it interesting and a bit ambiguous as you say.  Reading it at face value it seems the moment that matters is whether you have a knight in La Porxada city at the end of the game (and not for instance when it completes).

Breaking down your translation pasted again here:
"The second option is that, at the end of the game, all the uncompleted cities controlled by one or several players who have a knight in the city containing La Porxada will be scored as if they were completed."

- you need to have a knight in La Porxada city at the end of the game to qualify for the bonus

CORRECT.

- La Porxada city may or may not be one of those incomplete cities - it is not required to be complete to receive the bonus (just need to have a knight in it)

WRONG. The city with La Porxada has to be completed. So this contradicts the previous bullet. It cannot be completed and still have meeples in it. Ooooops!

- you need to have (joint or full) control of any incomplete city to qualify for the bonus

CORRECT.

- then you may receive the bonus (which is to score those controlled cities as complete instead of as incomplete)

CORRECT.

- scoring occurs at the end of the game

YES, if you mean the scoring of the incomplete cities as completed cities.

UNKNOWN, if you mean the city containing La Porxada because of the contradiction I mentioned. Open questions:
  • A completed city with meeples at the end of the game? How is it possible?
  • Is the scoring of the city with La Porxada maybe delayed and the city considered incomplete until the final scoring and all the knights in it are trapped until the final scoring?
  • Is the scoring of the city with La Porxada maybe done when completed but all the knights in it are trapped until the final scoring?
  • If knights stay in the city until the final scoring, can the dragon, the towers, flying machines, magic portals, crop circles, the plague, and so forth affect the figures in the city and alter what meeples are in the city when the final scoring happens?
  • The rules mention knights, but what happens to other figures that may be deployed to the city of La Porxada: builders, fairy, mage, witch, gingerbread man? What about gold pieces next to it?

Is this the right interpretation (pending you response from Oriol Comas)?

Thanks again Meepledrone

Let's see how this case develops.

The rules in the CAR, and therefore in WICA at present, are based on a mistranslation of the original rules: the option #2 bonus goes to all players who had meeples in the city containing La Porxada. Nevertheless you can check the house rules suggested by Carking in you are interested in them and also play with the same alternatives we are pondering here: when the city with La Porxada is scored and when the figures in it can be removed.

See them here: http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/La_Porxada_(1st_edition)#House_rules

Moreover I will mention that aenima applies the same rules as the CAR and WICA in his Italian version of the CAR, called Carcopedia, but adds a his touch. He suggests the use of one colored token per player if option #2 bonus is chosen. When the city with La Porxada is completed and scored, players with meeples in it place their tokens and remove their meeples and any other figures from the city. During the final scoring, the tokens in the city with La Porxada indicate the players that benefit from the bonus.   

Check the long version of Carcopedia 1.6.pdf (page 107 for La Porxada rules and page 158 for the DIY tokens). You can find the download link on the Download section:

http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?action=downloads;sa=view;down=330

Have fun  ^-^

Cheers!

Offline tothederby

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Re: La Porxada operation
« Reply #6 on: March 20, 2019, 01:51:42 PM »
Yes thanks - I'd missed the contradiction that La Porxada city needs to be completed.  Great if this could be resolved so it is playable.

Offline DrMeeple

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Re: La Porxada operation
« Reply #7 on: April 16, 2019, 03:40:27 AM »
A friend who was in the National Carcassonne tournament in Spain in 2010 has "la porxada" and was able to know the rules in his day, and he knows Oriol Comas (the creator of the expansion and a well-known game designer here in Spain and who works with Devir very often) asked him to clarify the most frequent doubts. I passed an extract from the conversation that came to me:

‘I answer here, in case anyone has the same doubt with the second use of Porxada (which is very reasonable to have this doubt). There must be a way to mark who has participated in the closing of ‘la porxada’ (with wooden cubes, with paper balls or even, as some people have done, making 5 photocopies of ‘La porxada’ tile and plasticizing- as a token mark to be distributed among those who have closed the city of La Porxada).

However, there is a second level doubt that interpreting the rules by line is solved: at the end of the game, cities that aren’t closed as closed have the players that have:

A.- Closed and rated the city of La Porxada?
B.- What has closed the city of La Porxada (although I don’t rate it)?
C.- Those who have had meeples in the city of La Porxada (although they didn’t score it in the end to remain in a minority of meeples)?

The answer is C.

So everyone who adds to the "party" of ‘La Porxada’ can pick up extra points at the end of the game.

I have answered the question ????’


I hope this serves to clarify those things that were confusingly written from my point of view and that of many people.
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Offline Meepledrone

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Re: La Porxada operation
« Reply #8 on: April 16, 2019, 06:06:17 AM »
Cool!

Finally you got the answer from Oriol Comas to all the pending questions!

+1 merit from me!
« Last Edit: April 16, 2019, 06:16:54 AM by Meepledrone »

Offline Meepledrone

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Re: La Porxada operation
« Reply #9 on: April 16, 2019, 03:44:02 PM »
La Porxada page on WICA has been updated accordingly.

http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/La_Porxada_(1st_edition)


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