Author Topic: Wikicarpedia - Reference Pages Review - Order of Play  (Read 848 times)

Offline Meepledrone

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Wikicarpedia - Reference Pages Review - Order of Play
« on: March 11, 2019, 04:18:13 PM »
Hi all,

This is a thread to address the review of the Reference Pages from Wikicarpedia, or WICA for short.

The main page is:

http://wikicarpedia.com/

WICA uses the CAR as source material and incorporates all expansions available up to date, combining official rules and clarifications by HiG available since May 2015 when the CAR was last updated (version 7.4.)

I dedicated many sleepless nights to implement some of the Reference sections of the CAR on WICA, one of them being of course the Order of Play. I started out from the version on the CAR and updated it to cover all the official and semi-official expansions available up-to-date covering Carcassonne I (C1), Carcassonne New Edition (C2) and the Winter Edition (WE.)

I added a twist to it and some other Reference pages available to date (Game Reference, Figure Reference, Scoring During the Game, Scoring After the Game): the information shown on them is dynamic, that is, at the top of each page you will find an Expansion Selector that will allow you what expansions (or parts of them) to consider when displaying those pages.

There is one single core but, depending on the entry point, you can get three predefined flavors: C1, C2, and WE. By default you get the basic rules, but you can add expansions from any edition one by one, by Big Boxes or everything at once. When combining expansions you can even highlight what parts come from other editions different from the preferred (default) one. I use session cookies to allow you to go from one page to another while maintaining state and the current selection... Oops I'm getting technical. Forgive me  :o

The entry points to each edition are next:

* First edition (C1) - available from Main Page:

http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Order_of_Play_(1st_edition)

* New edition (C2) - available from Main Page:

http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Order_of_Play

* Winter Edition (WE) - available from Winter Edition hub:

http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Winter_Order_of_Play

As part of the implementation process I renumbered the phases and the steps to align them with the steps normally found in C2 rules and used the same color code. Additionally, Steps 4X group all the additional actions included in some expansions such as: Catapult actions, Bazaar auctions, Crop Circles actions, Escaping from besieged cities, and the double turn resolution. The dragon movement is scattered all around as it changes from edition to edition.

Steps 4x section changes somewhat from the CAR after reviewing the latest rules and clarifications form CarcC and CarcF: actions that happen once or twice during a double turn in a couple of cases. The big change is how bazaar auctions interact with the builder double turn. I followed the original HiG ruling as the one on the CAR was due to a mistranslation of the original German rules.

So feel free to stop by and let me know your thoughts.

My first guest so far is Skull One, father of the original unified Turn Order Summary -an awesome piece of work to say the least, BTW- that became the Order of Play included in the CAR later by obervet.

Skull One suggested a thread, so here we are.  ;D

So let's discuss the WICA version Order of Play if you please. Thanks in advance.


Linkback: http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=4233.0

Offline danisthirty

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Re: Wikicarpedia - Reference Pages Review - Order of Play
« Reply #1 on: March 12, 2019, 07:08:04 AM »
Wow, I like this a lot! A customisable order of play like this is exactly the sort of thing people like me would find useful as it would always be 100% relevant to the set of expansions included in the game I was playing!

A mere +1 merit hardly seems like a worthy reward, but I hope you'll accept it anyway. :(y) :(y) :(y)
Heroically snatching defeat from the jaws of victory since 2018

Offline Skull One

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Re: Wikicarpedia - Reference Pages Review - Order of Play
« Reply #2 on: March 12, 2019, 07:19:05 AM »
Thank you for starting this thread Meepledrone.  I'm already looking forward to the many spirited discussion it will generate, lol. So lets get this party started. :)

Think the first area that needs serious work is the C2 version of Order of Play in regards to expansion 10 Under the Big Top when placing and scoring acrobats.  As it is currently written, it is impossible to properly play and score acrobats. 


----------
From the rules: http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Under_the_Big_Top#Acrobat_tiles

After a pyramid has been scored, players can start a new pyramid on the same tile by placing a meeple as an acrobat on it.


----------
From Order of Play (select only  Exp. 10 - Under The Big Top):

Step 2B-1: Move the Wood (Phase 1)

You may do one and only one of the following:

    Deploy a meeple.
        Normal meeple
        Ringmaster
    Perform an acrobat action if the tile was placed adjacent to an acrobat tile:
        Add a normal meeple to an uncompleted acrobat pyramid.
        Score a completed acrobat pyramid finished in a previous turn.


----------
The current rules and the Order of Play aren't in sync.  To get them in sync, we need to move the scoring of the acrobats outside of section Step 2B-1.  Lets see if we can clean this up.

Here are the conditions: 
1) Be able to score a completed acrobat pyramid, after the placement of a new tile adjacent to the acrobat tile.
2) Be able to place an acrobat on the same acrobat tile, that was just scored, after the pyramid has been removed (due to scoring).

The only way, at present, I can see to fix this condition is to add a new check and resolution phase for scoring of the pyramid on an acrobat tile. It has to be done between Step 1C: Place the Tile and Step 2. Placing a meeple.

As far as I can tell this change should not impact any other expansion interaction once completed.


Now for the fun part. Wording.  Thankfully this section already exists

Step 1C: Place the Tile

    Place the tile.
    Note: any feature that is finished is considered complete at this time.

That note is exactly the condition we have.  The check and resolution of the pyramid, on an acrobat tile, happens the moment the new tile is placed next to it.


So lets add a step G to fix this issue.

g. Check the tiles adjacent to the one just placed.  For each acrobat tile found, check for the completion of a pyramid (three meeples) on that tile. If found, the owner of each meeple is awarded 5 points. Return the meeples to their owners.

Remove from Step 2B-1: Move the Wood (Phase 1) subsection b "Score a completed acrobat pyramid finished in a previous turn." and that should fix everything quite nicely.


Ok, let the fun begin.  Does my solution truly fix this issue? 

Offline Meepledrone

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Re: Wikicarpedia - Reference Pages Review - Order of Play
« Reply #3 on: March 12, 2019, 01:57:39 PM »
Wow, I like this a lot! A customisable order of play like this is exactly the sort of thing people like me would find useful as it would always be 100% relevant to the set of expansions included in the game I was playing!

A mere +1 merit hardly seems like a worthy reward, but I hope you'll accept it anyway. :(y) :(y) :(y)

Hi Dan,

Thank you for your praise.

Not only the Order of Play is customizable. The following pages also are configurable for C1, C2 and WE (I include the entry URLs for C2 below if you want to try them too):

* Game Reference: a page that serves as a master Order of Play for the whole game covering the preparation, the main game loop (order of play + scoring) and the final scoring. It includes additional phases to cover the placement of the River and the remaining abbeys, for example.

http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Game_Reference

* Scoring During the Game: a fully revamped and updated version of the one on the CAR.

http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Scoring_During_the_Game

* Scoring After the Game: a fully revamped and updated version of the one on the CAR.

http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Scoring_After_the_Game

* Game Figures: a fully revamped and updated version of the figure tables on the CAR.

http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Game_Figures

The settings in the pages are synchronized for each edition, so you can have one setting for the C1 pages a separate one for the C2 pages and a third one for the WE pages.

Have fun!

Offline Meepledrone

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Re: Wikicarpedia - Reference Pages Review - Order of Play
« Reply #4 on: March 12, 2019, 05:08:20 PM »
Hi Skull One!

Before starting, just some preliminary considerations on Under The Big Top, as I just re-read the rules and noticed a couple of things in perspective:

During 2. Placing a Meeple the following actions are possible alternatives (and mutually exclusive) to any other Move Wood action:
* You may add an acrobat if you place a tile adjacent to an acrobat tile with an uncompleted pyramid (OK so far)
* You may score a acrobat pyramid completed in a previous turn - no tile placement involved (This is one mistake I made in Step 2B-1: Move the Wood (Phase 1), bullet b) )  :o

With this in mind, let me go through your points...

Thank you for starting this thread Meepledrone.  I'm already looking forward to the many spirited discussion it will generate, lol. So lets get this party started. :)

Let's have fun. Yeahhhh!  ;D

Think the first area that needs serious work is the C2 version of Order of Play in regards to expansion 10 Under the Big Top when placing and scoring acrobats.  As it is currently written, it is impossible to properly play and score acrobats. 


----------
From the rules: http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Under_the_Big_Top#Acrobat_tiles

After a pyramid has been scored, players can start a new pyramid on the same tile by placing a meeple as an acrobat on it.

The rules state the acrobat tiles can host an acrobat pyramid more than once but not that you can start a new pyramid right after scoring another (the sentence refers to all players in general.) Adding acrobats to a pyramid and scoring an acrobat pyramid are mutually exclusive actions as per the rules:

===
2. Placing a Meeple
After placing an Acrobat tile, you can place your meeple on the road or in the field, as usual.
You also have another option: you can place your meeple as an acrobat on one of the two acrobat spaces.
...

3. Scoring a feature
...
Instead of placing a meeple or any other figure during 2. Placing a meeple, you can score a completed pyramid. Each acrobat in the completed pyramid scores its owner 5 points and then returns to its supply.
...
===

So I suggest a simpler approach to your suggestion next.

----------
From Order of Play (select only  Exp. 10 - Under The Big Top):

Step 2B-1: Move the Wood (Phase 1)

You may do one and only one of the following:

    Deploy a meeple.
        Normal meeple
        Ringmaster
    Perform an acrobat action if the tile was placed adjacent to an acrobat tile:
        Add a normal meeple to an uncompleted acrobat pyramid.
        Score a completed acrobat pyramid finished in a previous turn.


----------
The current rules and the Order of Play aren't in sync.  To get them in sync, we need to move the scoring of the acrobats outside of section Step 2B-1.  Lets see if we can clean this up.

Here are the conditions: 
1) Be able to score a completed acrobat pyramid, after the placement of a new tile adjacent to the acrobat tile.
2) Be able to place an acrobat on the same acrobat tile, that was just scored, after the pyramid has been removed (due to scoring).

The only way, at present, I can see to fix this condition is to add a new check and resolution phase for scoring of the pyramid on an acrobat tile. It has to be done between Step 1C: Place the Tile and Step 2. Placing a meeple.

As far as I can tell this change should not impact any other expansion interaction once completed.

Now for the fun part. Wording.  Thankfully this section already exists

Step 1C: Place the Tile

    Place the tile.
    Note: any feature that is finished is considered complete at this time.

That note is exactly the condition we have.  The check and resolution of the pyramid, on an acrobat tile, happens the moment the new tile is placed next to it.


So lets add a step G to fix this issue.

g. Check the tiles adjacent to the one just placed.  For each acrobat tile found, check for the completion of a pyramid (three meeples) on that tile. If found, the owner of each meeple is awarded 5 points. Return the meeples to their owners.

Remove from Step 2B-1: Move the Wood (Phase 1) subsection b "Score a completed acrobat pyramid finished in a previous turn." and that should fix everything quite nicely.


Ok, let the fun begin.  Does my solution truly fix this issue?

My understanding is that it is easier to solve my error in Step 2B-1: Move the Wood (Phase 1)

AS-IS (offending clause in red):

===
b) Perform an acrobat action if the tile was placed adjacent to an acrobat tile:
    - Add a normal meeple to an uncompleted acrobat pyramid.
    - Score a completed acrobat pyramid finished in a previous turn.
===

TO-BE (corrected error and added clarifications, marked both in green):

===
b) Perform an acrobat action:
    - Add a normal meeple to an uncompleted acrobat pyramid if the tile was placed adjacent to an acrobat tile. If the acrobat pyramid has now three meeples, it will be considered completed.
    - Score a completed acrobat pyramid finished in a previous turn, and remove all the acrobats in the pyramid to allow players to build a new acrobat pyramid in future turns.
===

Regarding Step 1C: Place the Tile, bullet b) (Note: any feature that is finished is considered complete at this time.), I understood back in the day it was targeted only at tile-based features as figure-based features didn't exist, and even are an exception in certain ways, for example, castles don't get points from completed acrobats pyramids as they do not count as a "feature" that can cause a castle to score.

I see Step 1C, bullet b) as a necessary reminder to avoid fliers or magic portals to be used on just completed features, for example. Let me know if you foresaw other scenarios.

So my suggestion is to apply a small change marked in green:

==
Step 1C: Place the Tile,
   ...
   b) Note: any tile-based feature that is finished is considered complete at this time.
==

What do you think?


Additionally I have two topics for discussion that may have an effect on the Order of Play and/or the Figure Reference:

* The rules specify normal meeples as the only ones allowed as acrobats, but while preparing the Figure Reference in Game Figures, I learnt that phantoms where considered as normal meeples (with extra capabilities). The CAR (Summary of Figure Characteristics, page 217) used the same column to describe normal followers and the phantom. The WICA uses two separate columns in order to display different images for them. Thus, albeit not officially confirmed, phantoms could be acrobats.

* Flying Machines could deploy a normal meeple or phantom to an uncompleted acrobat pyramid. This could be inferred from the interaction on Expansions 10 and 3, as magic portals can deploy a meeple to an acrobat pyramid. It is a pity that HiG does not include interactions with minor expansions in the C2 rules.

As I didn't revisit UtBT lately, I didn't add any notes or clarifications on these two points. But I'll do it shortly.

Let me know your thoughts.

Cheers!
« Last Edit: March 12, 2019, 05:11:35 PM by Meepledrone »

Offline Skull One

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Re: Wikicarpedia - Reference Pages Review - Order of Play
« Reply #5 on: March 13, 2019, 10:43:53 AM »
Interesting points.  My hangup was on the words (in quotes):  After a pyramid has been scored, "players can start a new pyramid on the same tile" by placing a meeple as an acrobat on it.  I took it to mean they could score the completed feature and then place another meeple.  But I didn't take into account "Instead of placing a meeple or any other figure during 2. Placing a meeple, you can score a completed pyramid" as part of my thought process.  So that's where my failure began. 

After re-read reading the rules and your points, I am of the opinion it still needs further clarification from a programming standpoint.  Later today I am going to right some pseudo code and try to address your points and my concerns and see what shakes out.

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Re: Wikicarpedia - Reference Pages Review - Order of Play
« Reply #6 on: March 13, 2019, 11:58:46 AM »
Thanks very much for WICA meepledrone - it has been a core source of info for me to better understand the game and I have so appreciated the work.

I did have one question and one comment on it relating to market so Leipzig which I was puzzled by.  In footnote 2. you say: "This means also roads connected through other features, such as monasteries, fruit trees, etc. that are to be found in other expansions".  The question is: why did you include "monasteries" in this list - was there a particular reason?

My comment was, that it would be helpful to (exhaustively) define what does not break a road connection to Leipzig and what does.
- I had thought the following would NOT break the connection: small village, house, crossroads, road junction, trees or other incidental or minor feature (such as fruit trees, bazaar, bath house or festival).
- And the following would break the connection: cities, towers / tower foundations, lakes without a ferry connection, Bogatyr stone, Solovei Razboynik tree, acrobat spaces, circus spaces, crop circles, watch towers, shrines, abbeys, all types of monasteries, castles (German or expansion 8), German cathedrals, the city of Carcassonne, the Wheel of Fortune and the school do break the connection. 

Does this work?

Offline Meepledrone

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Re: Wikicarpedia - Reference Pages Review - Order of Play
« Reply #7 on: March 13, 2019, 01:13:41 PM »
Hi Skull One,

Interesting points.  My hangup was on the words (in quotes):  After a pyramid has been scored, "players can start a new pyramid on the same tile" by placing a meeple as an acrobat on it.  I took it to mean they could score the completed feature and then place another meeple.  But I didn't take into account "Instead of placing a meeple or any other figure during 2. Placing a meeple, you can score a completed pyramid" as part of my thought process.  So that's where my failure began. 

After re-read reading the rules and your points, I am of the opinion it still needs further clarification from a programming standpoint.  Later today I am going to right some pseudo code and try to address your points and my concerns and see what shakes out.

I applied the changes I commented to the Order of Play so you can see the results.

Note: I don't know if you notices you don't need to select the whole Expansion 10 to see the rules. If you click "+" you can select elements with a finer grain and select, for example, the Acrobats only.  ^-^

Additionally I created a dummy page with the older version to compare the logic / wording / whatever you may need. It uses a separate  settings cookie so you can have different settings from the C1, C2 and WE Order of Play pages.

* New Dummy page with previous content for the Order of Play:

http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Carcassonne_Order_of_Play_for_Discussion

* Pages with new content (all of them share the same the same "template" so to speak but use different settings cookies):

- For C1:

http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Order_of_Play_(1st_edition)

- For C2:

http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Order_of_Play

- For WE:

http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Winter_Order_of_Play

Changing the subject re: the Phantom + Acrobats and flying machines/magic portals, my first take on it would be:
  • Adding the Phantom to the list in Step 2B-1: Move the Wood (Phase 1), bullet a).
  • Adding the Phantom in Step 2B-1: Move the Wood (Phase 1), bullet b) as a possible candidate to be placed as an acrobat.
  • Adding in Step 2B-1: Move the Wood (Phase 1), a new bullet c) indicating the possibility of using a Flying Machine or a Magic Portal to deploy an acrobat.
  • Adding an additional condition to Step 2B-2: Move the Wood (Phase 2), bullet a) indicating that the Phantom can be placed in this step if it was not used in the Step 2B-1: Move the Wood (Phase 1)

Looking forward to hearing form you on all this.  ;D

Cheers!

Offline tothederby

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Re: Wikicarpedia - Reference Pages Review - Order of Play
« Reply #8 on: March 13, 2019, 02:09:57 PM »
Hi again meepledrone.  Sorry if my earlier post is polluting this thread.  I have tried to access your order of play but on my PC it says it is "transmogrifying" and I can't access any content.  Is there a way to access it (is it something I am doing wrong)?

I do have two questions / comments relating to order of play based on CAR 7.4.  You may have addressed them on your web pages but I'd be very keen to get your views.

1. Princess & the knight.  The new rules use the word 'may' not 'must': "you may remove one knight of your choice (even your own)" and I have adopted this (I note the recent thread discussion on this).  From this, I consider this princess action becomes part of the 'Move the Wood' phase 1.  I don't believe there is need to insist the action is taken before making the extensive choice of other Move the Wood actions and indeed I think it needs to move into 'Move the Wood' phase 1.  Do you / others agree?

2. Scoring order of completed features: I’ve seen the reference to “Each player receiving points chooses the order in which features resolve.” for Step 6b in CAR7.4 Identify Completed Features.  I’ve struggled with this.  If more than one player is receiving points from a number of different features that have completed, who decides which feature is scored first etc.?  Shouldn't this be changed to "the order for scoring is decided only by the active player"?

Offline Meepledrone

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Re: Wikicarpedia - Reference Pages Review - Order of Play
« Reply #9 on: March 13, 2019, 05:45:26 PM »
Hi tothederby,

Thanks very much for WICA meepledrone - it has been a core source of info for me to better understand the game and I have so appreciated the work.

It is not just me in the WICA team. WICA was created by Maj.Frost back in September 2018, I joined the team the day Maj.Frost posted about the initiative. He's still regretting that moment.

I created a number of pages and many tile distributions, and should be doing translating into Spanish but, instead of that, I became the crazy dude in the team that started to tweak the MediaWiki engine and ended creating dynamic pages for the Reference Pages... or the weirdo who tried to make sense of the interactions with the odd tile geometries (Halflings and German Castles) with the help of the clarifications published later then May 2015 (when the CAR was last updated.) You can enjoy the set of "community rules" (to call them something) I put together to address the issues Halflings pose...

http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Halflings_(1st_edition)

Maybe nobody would ever read this stuff but, I will never regret the week I spent scratching my head while scanning all the clarifications available -and possible valid inferences from them- before I felt ready to produce such a carbuncle (but it is my darling carbuncle  ;D).

(@ Halfling you can express yourself here.)
 

I did have one question and one comment on it relating to market so Leipzig which I was puzzled by.  In footnote 2. you say: "This means also roads connected through other features, such as monasteries, fruit trees, etc. that are to be found in other expansions".  The question is: why did you include "monasteries" in this list - was there a particular reason?

I asked the editors of the page for some hints on this... I agree the original rules only consider villages.

My comment was, that it would be helpful to (exhaustively) define what does not break a road connection to Leipzig and what does.
- I had thought the following would NOT break the connection: small village, house, crossroads, road junction, trees or other incidental or minor feature (such as fruit trees, bazaar, bath house or festival).
- And the following would break the connection: cities, towers / tower foundations, lakes without a ferry connection, Bogatyr stone, Solovei Razboynik tree, acrobat spaces, circus spaces, crop circles, watch towers, shrines, abbeys, all types of monasteries, castles (German or expansion 8), German cathedrals, the city of Carcassonne, the Wheel of Fortune and the school do break the connection. 

Does this work?

What about labyrinths? Shall we consider it a sophisticated roundabout? ;)

All this is open to discussion as there will not be clarifications in the near future by HiG (ever?) regarding mini expansions. This seems a discussion closer to the movement of the wagon for C1... In C2 they made the rules more flexible - end of story.  >:D

You can stick to the basic rule and stretch it for fun.

I would stick to the basic rule. There is no ambiguity in its definition... As you mentioned earlier: small village, house, crossroads, road junction, trees. Beyond that point, it is pure speculation.

I would agree with any feature that shares similarities with "one or more minor buildings that may allow a road to go through without any obstacle blocking the way" and I would even add that "no figure or token can be placed on such a feature" (is all this too elaborate?) This would discard "any features with one ore more tiles where a structure or figure may stand in a way"

Following with your list:
  • Other incidental or minor feature (such as fruit trees, bazaar, bath house or festival).
    • Fruit trees: NO - tokens are placed and block the thoroughfare
    • Bazaars: YES - thoroughfare is not blocked, tents replace small houses
    • Bath houses: N/A - Bath houses are placed next to roads.
    • Festival: YES - thoroughfare is not blocked, tents replace small houses
  • The rest of the features:
    • Cities: NO - structure that blocks the way and where figures can be placed
    • Towers / tower foundations: NO - structures that block the way and where figures can be placed
    • Lakes without a ferry connection: NO - feature that interrupts the direct passage
    • Bogatyr stone:NO - feature that interrupts the direct passage
    • Solovei Razboynik tree: NO - feature that blocks the passage and may keep trapped meeples
    • Acrobat spaces: NO - feature where meeples can be placed
    • Circus spaces: NO - feature where a figure + tokens can be placed
    • Crop circles: NO - feature that blocks the passage
    • Watch towers: NO - feature that blocks the passage
    • Shrines: NO - feature that blocks the passage where meeples can be placed
    • Abbeys: NO - feature that blocks the passage where meeples can be placed
    • All types of monasteries: NO - feature that blocks the passage where meeples can be placed
    • Castles (German or expansion 8): NO - feature that blocks the passage where meeples can be placed
    • German cathedrals: NO - feature that blocks the passage where meeples can be placed
    • City of Carcassonne: NO - multi-tiled feature that blocks the passage where figures can be placed
    • The Wheel of Fortune: NO - multi-tiled feature that blocks the passage where figures can be placed
    • The School: NO - multi-tiled feature that blocks the passage where a figure can be placed

Let me know your thoughts.

Cheers!

Offline Meepledrone

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Re: Wikicarpedia - Reference Pages Review - Order of Play
« Reply #10 on: March 13, 2019, 05:54:20 PM »
Hi tothederby!

Hi again meepledrone.  Sorry if my earlier post is polluting this thread.  I have tried to access your order of play but on my PC it says it is "transmogrifying" and I can't access any content.  Is there a way to access it (is it something I am doing wrong)?

No problem, I polluted it back.  :o

Your browser cache is giving you a hard time. Try the action that suits your browser from the following list:
  • Firefox / Safari: Hold Shift while clicking Reload, or press either Ctrl-F5 or Ctrl-R (⌘-R on a Mac)
  • Google Chrome: Press Ctrl-Shift-R (⌘-Shift-R on a Mac)
  • Internet Explorer: Hold Ctrl while clicking Refresh, or press Ctrl-F5
  • Opera: Go to Menu → Settings (Opera → Preferences on a Mac) and then to Privacy & security → Clear browsing data → Cached images and files.
I will get back to your questions tomorrow.

Cheers!

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Re: Wikicarpedia - Reference Pages Review - Order of Play
« Reply #11 on: March 13, 2019, 06:00:20 PM »
You are a star - thank you.  Like you I will re-engage in the thread tomorrow (time for bed now) - so much to talk about...

Offline Meepledrone

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Re: Wikicarpedia - Reference Pages Review - Order of Play
« Reply #12 on: March 14, 2019, 04:14:46 PM »
Hi tothederby!

Let's pick it up where we left off yesterday...

I do have two questions / comments relating to order of play based on CAR 7.4.  You may have addressed them on your web pages but I'd be very keen to get your views.

1. Princess & the knight.  The new rules use the word 'may' not 'must': "you may remove one knight of your choice (even your own)" and I have adopted this (I note the recent thread discussion on this).  From this, I consider this princess action becomes part of the 'Move the Wood' phase 1.  I don't believe there is need to insist the action is taken before making the extensive choice of other Move the Wood actions and indeed I think it needs to move into 'Move the Wood' phase 1.  Do you / others agree?

I agree, for the time being. There is no expansion rule that may affect the outcome if you move the removal of a knight by the princess. Nevertheless this may be changed by a new expansion... For example, you can see I had to add Step 2A: Move the Wood (Prologue) because of The Barber-Surgeons. The problem I see is that if we move rules around, at a certain point we may lose their traceability of those changes and break something in the future as things are not in the same place or in the same order in the rules.

2. Scoring order of completed features: I’ve seen the reference to “Each player receiving points chooses the order in which features resolve.” for Step 6b in CAR7.4 Identify Completed Features.  I’ve struggled with this.  If more than one player is receiving points from a number of different features that have completed, who decides which feature is scored first etc.?  Shouldn't this be changed to "the order for scoring is decided only by the active player"?

I haven't found a place that provides a ruling for this. I would follow these rules - a mix of both options:

1. Each player receiving points chooses the order in which features resolve (as above), if no conflict arises
2. Otherwise, the active player decides (serves as a referee)

Normally this decision would affect the scoring order for messengers and robbers.

What do you think?

Cheers!

Offline tothederby

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Re: Wikicarpedia - Reference Pages Review - Order of Play
« Reply #13 on: March 15, 2019, 11:12:02 AM »
Hi Meepledrone
I was thinking about the princess and knight situation.

This may help our thinking process and perhaps go a bit deeper (or it may not help!)...

Situation 1: If "A" happens, then you must do "B" and if you do "B" you cannot do "C", "D" or "E"
OR
Situation 2: If "A" happens, then you may do "B" and if you do "B" you cannot do "C", "D" or "E"
AND
Situation 3: If "A" happens, then you may do "C" and if you do "C" you cannot do "B", "D" or "E"
Situation 4: If "A" happens, then you may do "D" and if you do "D" you cannot do "B", "C" or "E"

Situations 3 and 4 can be combined with either situation 1 OR situation2 (but not both - Situation 1 and 2 are mutually exclusive - either you must do "B" or you may do "B").

If you had situations 2, 3 and 4 available to you, how would you choose which one you would do first?  and what reasoning would you give (rhetorically)?  If you cannot choose, then they should all be offered together, effectively as one choice.

If you had situation 1 with either or both of situations 3 and 4, you can now choose an order.  Situation 1 has to happen first since it is a requirement for "B" to happen, then if any choice remains available (there won't be any in this case) you could choose between 3 & 4.

The output of this is to group together rules that have the same structure and conditionality and this drives the timing of when they need to happen and whether they are simultaneous.

The same applies to the acrobat problem you and Skull One were discussing.  I think I have the same outcome as you which is that scoring acrobats are one of the 19 choices that need to be decided simultaneously on phase 1 of move the wood.  Since another choice at this moment is to place a meeple on an acrobat pyramid, there is no conflict - you can only choose at most one or the other of these actions (page 9 of my condensed rules refer).

I think this is just the start of the conversation though - lots of other things spin off....

Hope we can continue the discussion
tothederby


 
 

 




Offline Meepledrone

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Re: Wikicarpedia - Reference Pages Review - Order of Play
« Reply #14 on: March 16, 2019, 01:28:26 PM »
Hi tothederby,

The Princess and the Knight issue could be simplified and sent to the Move Wood section but I tried to be as faithful as possible to the phases provided in the manuals so could related back to them if needed. The current issues are:

1. The dragon movement, happening in 3 different moments depending on the edition and the publisher (although I think the RGG version was a translation error as the Big Box manuals by RGG said something contradicting the Order of Play they provided in the same rules  :o)

2. All the additional actions in Step 4 grouping actions after Scoring present in several rules using different brownish colors and yellow (I picked yellow for the Order of Play to make this Step stand out visually). You'll find here anything related to Crop Circles and Bazaars, but also Escaping from Cities and the Catapult.

Bazaars and Double turns pose also a big challenge when mixed. English players are used to the Order of Play in the CAR but it is officially wrong (it was caused by a mistranslation) and even HiG has commented it in writing by they "allow" it. Everything spawns from a single concept:
  • HiG: Auction tiles are placed before a builder turn. The rationale: auction tiles should be placed closer to the placement of the tile that originated the auction. This approach requires the recursive nesting of the turns for the placement of the auction tiles before the builder-turn happens.
  • The CAR: Auction tiles are placed after a builder turn. It seems simpler since no turn nesting takes place and the active player finishes his/her double turn before any auction tile placement. Thus the auction placement turns are unwound and take place after the active player finishes his/her double turn.
Check my comments here about the interactions of Bazaars and the Builder. The grey FAQ box explains the HiG version while footnote #16 explains the CAR approach:

http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Bridges,_Castles_and_Bazaars#Bazaar_2

You can check also the thread on CarcF where all this was discussed.

https://www.carcassonne-forum.de/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=1183&hilit=baumeister+basar

It seemed specially interesting to me the following two posts:

1. From Kettlefish with the clarification given by HiG for a situation where a bazaar tile extends a road with the active player's builder:

===
--- (German original text)
Telefonat mit HiG - Georg Wild - 10 05 2013

Der aktive Spieler, welcher die Basarkarte gelegt hat und somit seine Straße (incl. GFM + Baumeister) verlängert hat, führt seinen Doppelzug nach der Basarrunde aus.
Anschließend ist der nächste Spieler an der Reihe.
--- (English translated text)
Phone call with HiG - Georg Wild - 10 05 2013

The active player, who has laid the bazaar tile and thus extended his road (incl. meeple + master builder), makes his double move after the bazaar round.
Then it's the turn of the next player.
===

2. The post by BigBoss with a letter from HiG that confirms the CAR version was based on a mistranslation of the clarification by HiG:

===
--- (English translated text)
Hello "name removed",

It is purely a matter of definition, whether you make the double move first or the bazaar round first. There are arguments for both procedures. Both variants work. The argumentation of Georg Wild was at that time: The bazaar round still belongs to the first tile created. Therefore the double move has to wait until the bazaar round is finished.

Christopher Ober actually made a translation mistake here. With over 300 pages, he is forgiven for that.

I understand from your questions that you find it more intuitive to complete the double move before starting the bazaar round. If you like, you can play Carcassonne this way too. That doesn't change much about the game. The rules here are not clear anyway.

Many greetings,

Michael Fronia

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator
===

In the same thread there are other interesting posts dealing with the nesting of builder turns in the placement of auctioned tiles. But the consequence of them all is already captures in the WICA BC&B pages as I mentioned earlier.

All your comments are welcome.

Cheers!
« Last Edit: March 17, 2019, 02:21:24 AM by Meepledrone »


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