Author Topic: Fruit-bearing trees  (Read 1064 times)

Offline Maurice Poucave

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Fruit-bearing trees
« on: December 29, 2018, 01:33:08 AM »
Hello,

I'm currently testing the Fruit bearing trees, and I have some issues with the rules. (My english may seem a bit rusty, sorry about that...)

1. If I understand them well, no previously placed meeple can harvest from a tree, no matter the distance between them. Correct?

2. There's still a doubt with a later-placed meeple which is one tile away from two or more trees. We have to decide if it can harvest from one or more trees. Correct?

3. Assuming a meeple can legitimately harvest one tree, it can harvest one fruit per turn until the tree is exhausted. Correct?

4. (Barber surgeon interaction) Just my interpretation here. A meeple stuck on a barber tile, taking some good time, won't be able to harvest anything.

5. (Abbey and phantom interaction) They both can harvest from trees.

Thanks for attention!



Linkback: http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=4179.0

Offline Decar

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Re: Fruit-bearing trees
« Reply #1 on: December 29, 2018, 07:02:08 AM »
Hi Maurice, welcome to the forum - thanks for posting the questions.
Memebers of the forum are hard putting together:
http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/The_Fruit-Bearing_Trees ;)

Which may answer some of your questions - here are my thoughts:

Hello,

I'm currently testing the Fruit bearing trees, and I have some issues with the rules. (My english may seem a bit rusty, sorry about that...)

1. If I understand them well, no previously placed meeple can harvest from a tree, no matter the distance between them. Correct?
This is not correct, When placing a tile with a meeple on it, you can harvest a tree or sell fruit.  Those actions are only available when placing the tile.
Quote
2. There's still a doubt with a later-placed meeple which is one tile away from two or more trees. We have to decide if it can harvest from one or more trees. Correct?
This is open for clarification with the publisher.  I believe you may interact with all the trees, in any chosen order when you place a tile next to them.
Quote
3. Assuming a meeple can legitimately harvest one tree, it can harvest one fruit per turn until the tree is exhausted. Correct?
Nope - As described, the meeple isn't harvesting the tree, the player is, but only when they place a tile next to a tree with a meeple on it.
Likewise, you can harvest or sell at a tree if you place a tree tile.  But not on subsequent turns.
Quote
4. (Barber surgeon interaction) Just my interpretation here. A meeple stuck on a barber tile, taking some good time, won't be able to harvest anything.
I've not had chance to play bath houses yet, but I would assert they can when the bath house tile is placed.
Quote
5. (Abbey and phantom interaction) They both can harvest from trees.
Given The publisher has no intention of supporting the interactions of expansions with their mini-expansions, we can only assume.
I would assert it's reasonable to interact with the tree when placing one of your followers (or wooden pieces) on a tile.
Quote
Thanks for attention!

HTH

Offline Maurice Poucave

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Re: Fruit-bearing trees
« Reply #2 on: December 29, 2018, 10:20:12 AM »
Many thanks for all these explanations. I've read again the rules and the Wikicarpedia article.

To make things completely clear, if I put a tile with a fruit-bearing tree and place a meeple on it, I won't be able to harvest from this tree on this turn.
But later, if I put a tile next to it and place a meeple on it, I will be able to harvest from it one time.

Then, in order to sell my harvested fruits, I will have to put another tile next to a tree and place a meeple on it.
I will then have to choose between harvesting one new fruit or selling previously harvested ones.

I can't sell just by having one meeple next to tree tile. I have to put a new tile next to a tree, place a meeple on it, and sacrifice my only occasion to harvest in order to sell one fruits set.

Is everything correct ?

Offline Decar

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Re: Fruit-bearing trees
« Reply #3 on: December 29, 2018, 12:16:06 PM »
Yes I think you're correct.  But, You can harvest or sell fruit, when you place a tree tile with a meeple on it.  I don't think the Wikicarpedia is clear on this, but the HiG rulesheet is:

Quote
When you have deployed a meeple, you may carry out one of the two actions explained below.
If a player places a land tile next to the tree tile and deploys a meeple on this land tile, they may, carry out one of the following actions:
... Harvest, Sell ....

So you're correct, later, on another turn, you can place another tile, with a meeple on it next to a tree, then you can harvest or sell.

It's HARVEST or SELL, not both.

You can't just keep using the meeple next to the tree, I guess they're busy scoring points on that feature, being a farmer etc.

I would add that if you place a tree next with a meeple, next to another tree, (so by 2 trees) then you can invoke the action on both trees.
But that's not confirmed by the publisher, it's just we proposed during a meeting last year.  It seems to work quite well.  So in that case you could harvest from one and sell on another.

Offline Maurice Poucave

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Re: Fruit-bearing trees
« Reply #4 on: December 29, 2018, 02:10:14 PM »
Many thanks. You are clearly right.  :(y) I took a closer look at the rule sheet and read:
Quote
When you have placed a meeple, you may carry out one of the two actions explained below.
If a player places a land tile next to the tree tile in another turn [...] and places a meeple on this land tile, he may, as well, carry out one of the following actions[...]
It's now clear for me that the player who places the tree tile with a meeple on it can harvest from the aforementioned tree.


Offline Just a Bill

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Re: Fruit-bearing trees
« Reply #5 on: April 20, 2019, 08:04:02 AM »
I would add that if you place a tree next with a meeple, next to another tree, (so by 2 trees) then you can invoke the action on both trees.
Wouldn't this encourage the players (in general) to cluster the trees together on the map? That doesn't seem like a good goal.
My stuff: The Caverns of Carcassonne | Wheel of Fortune versions | True North (wind roses) | Icon facelifts | Converting CII to CI | Signposts & the Château | The Vault | Riverboats & the Whirlpool | trade list

Offline Decar

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Re: Fruit-bearing trees
« Reply #6 on: April 20, 2019, 08:20:16 AM »
Was discussed at the meetup and was validated. As the rules stand it's possible to invoke two or more tree actions. Perhaps fruit bearing trees perform well in patches of soil.

Offline Just a Bill

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Re: Fruit-bearing trees
« Reply #7 on: April 20, 2019, 09:00:54 AM »
Was discussed at the meetup and was validated. As the rules stand it's possible to invoke two or more tree actions.

Can you cite the source? I just reviewed the rules, and nowhere is it stated or implied that you get to peform one fruit action per tree. In fact, the rules (twice) associate the fruit action with deploying a meeple and they (twice) say you can perform one fruit action.


Carrying out a ‚fruit action‘
When you have deployed a meeple, you may carry out one of the two actions explained below. If a player places a land tile next to the tree tile in another turn (vertically, horizontally or diagonally) and deploys a meeple on this land tile, he may, as well, carry out one of the following actions.


The only way I can see to legally perform a second fruit action is to deploy a second figure (e.g., your phantom).

Where was it "validated" that you perform one action per tree? If this comes from HiG, where is the official explanation/errata?

Offline Dungeonmasterjoe

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Re: Fruit-bearing trees
« Reply #8 on: April 20, 2019, 09:08:19 AM »
Could you place a wagon with the tile, perform a fruit tree action, score the wagon, then move the wagon to a different road/city segment on the same tile, then perform another fruit tree action (in the same turn)?

What if the wagon moved to a different tile adjacent to the fruit tree? (in the same turn)

What if the wagon was scored and moved (to either tile) on a later turn?

Offline Meepledrone

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Re: Fruit-bearing trees
« Reply #9 on: April 20, 2019, 04:53:03 PM »
Hi Dungeonmasterjoe,

Could you place a wagon with the tile, perform a fruit tree action, score the wagon, then move the wagon to a different road/city segment on the same tile, then perform another fruit tree action (in the same turn)?

What if the wagon moved to a different tile adjacent to the fruit tree? (in the same turn)

What if the wagon was scored and moved (to either tile) on a later turn?

The turn sequence would as follows during a turn:
1. Place tile:
- Place a new tile adjacent to a fuit-bearing tree tile (the tile completes an unoccupied feature)
2. Place a Meeple
- Place the wagon on the tile claiming the just completed, unoccupied feature
- Perform fruit action
3. Score a feature
- Score the completed feature
- Move the wagon to a neighboring feature (on the same or on a different tile)

So going back to your questions:
1. Can you perform another fruit tree action after moving the wagon to another feature on the same tile (in the same turn)?
NO. The movement of the wagon happens in phase 3 of the turn (3. Score a feature), and the fruit action in phase 2 (2. Place a Meeple), so you cannot do it as you cannot go back in time and perform actions from earlier phases.

2. What if the wagon moved to a different tile adjacent to the fruit tree (in the same turn)?
NO. The reason is the same as for question #1 plus the tile you move the wagon to is not a newly placed tile during the current turn, so it cannot trigger any fruit actions. Remember that, in order to trigger a fruit action, two conditions have to be met:
 i) You have to place a new tile adjacent to a fruit-bearing tree tile; and
 ii) You have to place a meeple on any feature on the newly placed tile.
Therefore, in this case the turn sequence doesn't not allow you to trigger a fruit action again in the same turn. Moreover conditions (i) and (ii) are not met either as we are taliking about moving the wagon to a previously placed tile.

3. What if the wagon was scored and moved (to either tile) on a later turn?
NO. The fruit action cannot be triggered in a later turn as the wagon is moved to a tile that was placed in a previous turn so conditions (i) and (ii) cannot be met either.

Hope this clarified your questions.

Offline Decar

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Re: Fruit-bearing trees
« Reply #10 on: April 21, 2019, 06:23:37 AM »
As I said it was discussed, there was no tribunal.  Mind you a lot of clarifications over the years have not been through tribunals either.

I documented the games played on my write up last year.
It wasn't my intention to seek formal clarifications while on holiday; though others were using the time to do this.

The reasons I believe you can action more than a single tree per turn is as follows:
  • The Place a Meeple section includes two clauses, not simply one:
    • 'When', which I believe corresponds to the eventuality of placing a meeple on a tree tile.
    • 'If', which corresponds to a later turn, when you place a meeple on another tile.
  • The second clause refers to 'the tree', not 'a tree'. I believe this means that the if clause applies to each tree on future turns.
    • I think the 'one of the following action' is to limit you buying OR selling for each tree, not to limit each meeple.
    • I think when you play a tree tile with a meeple on it, next to an existing tree; you meet both clauses.  Thus, A player can take the one of the following actions twice.

Counter to your interpretation:
  • Carcassonne, doesn't deal with the niceties of the landscape:
    • For example, it's already strategically beneficial for players to creates areas of landscape players are unable to finish; even though this doesn't seem like a good goal.
    • Plays can choose to cluster some existing features, namely cloisters from the base game, to maximize their worth.
  • It still requires players to place a meeple to invoke the actions; an expensive task.
  • It takes too many turns to collect and sell fruit when you compare to scoring points traditionally; so combinations make the investment worthwhile.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2019, 06:28:19 AM by Decar, Reason: list tags messed »

Offline Just a Bill

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Re: Fruit-bearing trees
« Reply #11 on: April 21, 2019, 12:04:42 PM »
Thank you for clarifying that your word "validated" was not meant to imply some kind of player community consensus, or an official answer.

I think we can agree that the rules are poorly written. On the German forums, I found that they have additional questions about this expansion beyond the one we are discussing here.

  • The second clause refers to 'the tree', not 'a tree'. I believe this means that the if clause applies to each tree on future turns.

On the contrary, "the" tree implies that there is only one tree, or that only one tree is relevant; whereas "a" tree would be more in keeping with the concept of each. So even this argues more for concluding that they did not really intend for the active player to get up to 8 or 10 fruit actions all in the same turn.

  • It takes too many turns to collect and sell fruit when you compare to scoring points traditionally; so combinations make the investment worthwhile.

That may be true, but weak game mechanics are nothing new. Sometimes they are downright ridiculous, like the Wind Roses, and on the German forums, I saw the Fruit Trees being referred to as "a laugh" (after translation) more than serious gameplay. We already know that HiG puts only minimal rules effort into these mini-expansions, and the regulars on the German forums have confirmed that The Fruit Trees was not even allowed the usual proofreading by kettlefish or any other knowledgeable players. In any case, the strength/weakness of the mechanic does not change what the rules say (and don't say).

The bottom line is that I can't find anything in the rules that suggests they intended for getting large numbers of fruit actions in the same turn. We would naturally (and reasonably) expect that if this were the case, they would simply have said "If any other fruit trees are adjacent to the meeple, you get one fruit action for each tree." But there's nothing of the kind.

So let's see an example of how assuming unlimited fruit actions lets things get out of hand.


First, Blue placed the Apricot tree and took 1 fruit action; then, Green placed the Cherry tree and took 2 fruit actions. (Green puts his follower on the city segment, hoping to join in to Blue's city later on.)


Now Red places the Apple tree and, using his phantom, takes six fruit actions. If he spends them all grabbing fruit discs, that's an average of 21 points, compared to Blue's paltry average of 3.5 points for his Apricot disc. Of course Red will get a bunch more points when he sells the discs later, and he didn't even have to risk stranding his phantom. He gets it back immediately, since the road is completed. This will be quite easy to do in many cases, since the fruit trees tiles have so many easily-completed city and road elements (5 terminal city sections and 10 terminal road sections.

If somebody comes along later and plugs the hole with another fruit tree (the Elderberry would do nicely) and his own Phantom, that player will then get eight fruit actions.

I simply cannot imagine that HiG — if they were asked the question in a way that fully explained this potential — would say "yeah, sure, as many fruit actions as you like. That's what we were going for." I guess it's possible, but as a game designer I would be disappointed to see such a lopsided and undisciplined design approach.

Then again, it is one of their throw-away mini-expansions, and they probably just don't really care. So I guess I should prepare for disappointment. :))

Offline Dungeonmasterjoe

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Re: Fruit-bearing trees
« Reply #12 on: April 22, 2019, 08:48:51 PM »
Thank you Meepledrone.

So it is the combination of placing a tile and a meeple on it that triggers the fruit action.

Since "and places a meeple" was in bold and "place a Land tile" was not, it seemed the wagon could carry out multiple fruit actions in one turn. Silly misread.

Offline Meepledrone

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Re: Fruit-bearing trees
« Reply #13 on: April 23, 2019, 02:03:35 PM »
Hi Dungeonmasterjoe and Just a Bill,

@Dungeonmasterjoe --> I'm glad if I helped you.

Reading the rules and capture their meaning sometimes is not that straightforward. From time to time I'm surprised by the many nuances you can find in a simple sentence and all the ramifications spawning from it.

This is why the forum is so great. It works like a hive mind of sorts...  ;D

---

@Just a Bill --> I was reviewing your cool examples with Fruit-bearing Trees and I noticed that you are placing a meeple on the tree tiles just placed and performing a fruit action in the same turn but the rules state that fruit actions may only happen in later turns after placing the tree tile. I include a excerpt of the rules just in case (highlighted in red the turn-related restriction):

===
The main actions, associated with this expansion, and subsequent scoring, apply on later turns in the game and apply when any player places a tile next to one of the Tree tiles.

Carrying out a "fruit action"

If a player places a Land tile next to the Tree tile in a later turn (vertically, horizontally or diagonally) and places a meeple on any feature on this Land tile they may, as well, carry out one of the following actions:
* Harvesting
* Selling
===
 

Offline Just a Bill

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Re: Fruit-bearing trees
« Reply #14 on: April 23, 2019, 06:28:50 PM »
but the rules state that fruit actions may only happen in later turns after placing the tree tile.

Actually, they state the opposite. In your initial claim you have added the word "only," which is not present in the actual rules. And in your excerpt, you have added an entire paragraph that I cannot find in the rules document, and you have also deleted the triggering rule that allows the active player to perform a fruit action on the same turn the tree is placed.

One thing I believe you are overlooking in the rules are the words "as well," meaning "in addition" or "also." You may use a fruit tree on later turns as well as the turn on which it is placed on the map. (EDIT: I went back to the German and this word should really be translated as likewise.)

Note that the two separate modes of tree use are further reinforced by the use of two different player-perspectives with correspondingly different pronouns: you and he. If you place a meeple on the just-placed tile, you may perform a fruit action; as well, if any player places a meeple on an adjacent tile on a later turn, he may perform a fruit action.

I will quote the English rules with clarifying context added {in curly braces}.


Carrying out a ‚fruit action‘
When you have deployed a meeple {as just stated above, on the tree tile}, you may carry out one of the two actions explained below.

If a player places a land tile next to the tree tile in another turn (vertically, horizontally or diagonally) and deploys a meeple on this land tile, he may, as well, carry out one of the following actions.


If we look at the original German rules, the points above become even more clear. Unfortunately the "official" English translation is not a very good representation of the original intent (probably another consequence of HiG not letting kettlefish or anyone else from the player-community proofread the rules), in at least three ways that are germane to this discussion.

First, the German employs an implied "if" rather than a "when" and it uses the word nun ("now") to link the same-turn "you may" rule directly back to the previous paragraph about deploying a meeple on the fruit tree tile that was just placed.

Second, if you look closely at the line breaks and the inter-paragraph spacing in the German PDF, you'll see that the two rules (one rule using "you" to allow you a fruit action on this turn and another rule using "he" to allow any player to do so on later turns) are in fact two separate paragraphs. In the English, they are inappropriately combined into a single paragraph, which can imply that the second sentence is a restriction on the first, rather than a second (permissive and separate) rule as is clear in the German.

Third, I think the German ebenfalls more naturally translates in this context as "likewise," further making the original intent more clear.


German
Hast du einen Meeple eingesetzt, darfst du nun eine der beiden gleich folgenden Aktionen ausführen.

Legt ein Spieler in einem späteren Zug ein Landschaftsplättchen angrenzend (senkrecht, waagerecht oder diagonal) an ein Baumplättchen an und setzt einen Meeple auf das Plättchen ein, darf er ebenfalls eine der beiden folgenden Aktionen ausführen.


Literal translation
Have you a meeple deployed, may you now one of the two following actions perform.

Places a player in a later turn a tile adjacent (vertically, horizontally or diagonally) to a tree tile and places a meeple on the tile,
may he likewise one of the two following actions perform.

Smoother translation
If you have deployed a meeple, you may now perform either one of the following two actions.

If a player in a later turn places a tile adjacent (vertically, horizontally or diagonally) to a tree tile and places a meeple on the tile,
he may likewise perform one of the following two actions.


Finally, if I'm not mistaken, this interpretation was confirmed somewhere on the German forums (carcassonne-forum.de).
« Last Edit: April 23, 2019, 06:43:32 PM by Just a Bill »


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