Author Topic: New Expansion: Die Badehäuser  (Read 2614 times)

Offline danisthirty

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Re: New Expansion: Die Badehäuser
« Reply #45 on: November 19, 2018, 08:00:22 AM »
can we imagine making a petition to HIG? I'm serious! we could also involve the German forum ...

What would the desired outcome be? I don't think we can influence them over what any "official" rulings should be, and from what I've seen of previous attempts to help in this respect, they don't seem especially keen to have anyone help them either.

I think our best bet in this regard is with the wiki project that Maj. Frost and his violent gang of hooligans are working on. I haven't been particularly close to this, but I think the aim is to provide official clarifications where known, and other "home rulings" where helpful...
Heroically snatching defeat from the jaws of victory since 2018

Offline MeepleFan

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Re: New Expansion: Die Badehäuser
« Reply #46 on: November 19, 2018, 09:50:47 AM »
Quote
I think that's correct. At least I understand rules like you

... I find it fascinating that, what appears to be a simple concept, has so many nuances ...

I think this is the trouble for HiG with a game that has so many expansions now. Clarifying all the interactions between expansions without breaking what's already known becomes almost impossible, hence their disclaimer that we've seen on a few of the more recent expansions explaining that that expansion is designed to be played with the basic game only and any other expansions included are played "at your own risk"! :o

can we imagine making a petition to HIG? I'm serious! we could also involve the German forum ...

I agree! It would be very complicated but could worth it.

Offline Willem

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Re: New Expansion: Die Badehäuser
« Reply #47 on: November 19, 2018, 11:28:42 AM »
I agree with Dan, and don't think it would be worth it reaching out to HiG.
In the past, they have answered many, many of these questions regarding combining expansions, many of which Kettlefish has relayed to them.
From how I would see it, to answer all these questions, or to simply get rid of them, they have started putting the disclaimer on the new expansions. I highly doubt that they have it worked out how each combination of expansions work together, so in answering these questions, I think it depends on who answers and in what mood they are. So similarly to this forum, only when someone from HiG does it, it is 'official'.
I might be completely wrong, but this is the feel I get from seeing the many questions that HiG has answered in the past and the disclaimer on the recent releases.

Offline aenima

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Re: New Expansion: Die Badehäuser
« Reply #48 on: November 20, 2018, 12:42:36 AM »
it's been months since I've asked Kettle to talk to Hig about the clarifications. aApparently, at least so it seems from the results of the last fanmeeting, Kettle and Hig have spent 3 hours talking about it ... so I imagine that a bit of collaboration on their part there was! But Kettle disappeared. I also tried to write them but he never replied to me ... Anyway, the problem remains: many questions without answers. I have the italian Carcopedia to update and you others the wiki page (and I apologize for my lack of participation in the project, but it would mean to translate everything again and I do not have enough time). So... What do we do? we dedicate a paragraph to each expansion calling it "unofficial interactions but that should be corrected because elaborated by forum users"?
I have no problem with this, but if we do so we have to create a new chapter in the forum and work on it.

Offline Decar

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Re: New Expansion: Die Badehäuser
« Reply #49 on: November 20, 2018, 01:12:11 AM »
I agree! It would be very complicated but could worth it.

Not to HiG: 
Fans:  FIX the Rules
HiG: How much will it cost?
Fans: Probably 20 hours a quarter to fix up the rules. 
HiG: What will you do if we don't do it?
Fans: Continue buying your expansions?
HiG: So we game the same money if we don't waste time trying to fix things?

it's been months since I've asked Kettle to talk to Hig about the clarifications. aApparently, at least so it seems from the results of the last fanmeeting, Kettle and Hig have spent 3 hours talking about it ... so I imagine that a bit of collaboration on their part there was! But Kettle disappeared. I also tried to write them but he never replied to me ... Anyway, the problem remains: many questions without answers. I have the italian Carcopedia to update and you others the wiki page (and I apologize for my lack of participation in the project, but it would mean to translate everything again and I do not have enough time). So... What do we do? we dedicate a paragraph to each expansion calling it "unofficial interactions but that should be corrected because elaborated by forum users"?
I have no problem with this, but if we do so we have to create a new chapter in the forum and work on it.

Kettlefish is a she!

Offline aenima

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Re: New Expansion: Die Badehäuser
« Reply #50 on: November 20, 2018, 01:20:19 AM »
I see your point Decar, but you are always so negative about that... Have we (like a great comunity) evere try to do something about that? I think never...

ps. Yes, I know, she is a she! :D ...you know... my bad english

pps. have you read my messages?

Offline Decar

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Re: New Expansion: Die Badehäuser
« Reply #51 on: November 20, 2018, 01:37:37 AM »
Yes, I thought I replied to your last one, but perhaps I missed it!
I've not had much time to frequent here recently.
I get frustrated that the community think HiG must perform this action and perhaps that is why it comes across negatively.

In terms of HiG's clarifications, I think they have been very clear.
They will support the interaction of major expansions with other major expansions.
Mini-expansions will work with the basegame and may work with other expansions, but no rule clarifications will come from HiG, the user must accept this as a risk.

I've not had a response regarding the few questions we've had about issues within expansions.

Offline aenima

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Re: New Expansion: Die Badehäuser
« Reply #52 on: November 20, 2018, 02:51:01 AM »
I do not understand why you should feel frustrated about this.
We all know very well that it is specifically written that there will be no official rules regarding the interactions of the new mini-expansions with everything else... it is well written in the official rules. So far it is clear.
But ... this is not a valid reason for not pushing someone to change their mind.
A law is a law, but it is also true that if a law is not good for the people, the people could not "strike" to change their feelings about that law.
now ... we're talking about a game, it's true. it's not a catastrophe!
but listen to my point of view ...
I, and I believe many players, love when things are written and regulated: I do not speak only of Carcassonne: how many times, when we play any game, there is a situation where we are forced to say: "ok, this thing is not written by no part! what do we do? do we do in this way or do it in another way? "... Then, in a future game, the same situation happens and we say:" ah, this thing has already happened to us! I do not remember ... we could do it like this or so... no, it was not like that! Oh well, then let's pretend this time that... ".
For me, the frustration lies in not having everything clear, not in having to necessarily ask for clarification.
Specifically speaking about the mini-expansions of Carcassonne: all of us love to change our games and put different expansions every time. This happens from the old edition. Over time the clarifications arrived and we were all happy every time they arrived. And that's exactly what kept us pushing and buying.
I think we could focus on this to be able to get what we want so much ... when I insisted, Kettle managed to get some results, but then it all vanished.
Now ... it's been a while now that I ask and ask about the clarifications ... I feel a bit alone in this, because Kettle is gone, you (Decar) you seem happy with the official rule that there will be no official rules . It seems that even Dan is more and more negative regard the strategies of the HIG and sees an excellent resource on the wiki page ... You are the pillars of this community! If you give up, all collapse!
Or we take the situation in hand: either we insist with HIG or we regulate ourselves in an "official" manner as "experts and old Carcassonne players".

anyway ... everything I've said is constructive. I have always had great respect for this community and for you moderators and always I will have, because you are my playmates and virtual friends who have always proved to be very good people. We "know each other" for many years now ... I love this forum, the game and all of you.  :-*
It is absolutely not my intention to argue and criticize anyone. If my tones seem strong, it's because I really care about this thing.  :)

ps. no Decar I recived no answer from you  ;)

pps. WOW... long post! I think I have never written so much here!  ;D

Offline Decar

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Re: New Expansion: Die Badehäuser
« Reply #53 on: November 20, 2018, 03:06:25 AM »
Oh that one PM - I see it now - incoming reply!

I do understand the frustration, but HiG have been very explicit.  They are a small company, with less than 10 full time employees.  If you want one of them spending time clarifying rules we will have less new expansions.  What would you rather and what would bring HiG and their licensed partners more money?

If I asked you to take 3 weeks off work to clarify some rules, would you wish to be reimbursed?
What if you couldn't take 3 weeks off work because you had no holiday?
What if you lost your real job because you spent too long clarifying rules?
These are the hard decisions HiG have to face.
The value of their product is not in their rule interactions.

As Carcassonne fans, you can strike! You can not purchase any more expansions until HiG fix their old ones.
But I know the majority of people won't do this.  This is the only way I see to financially insensitivize HiG to fix their rules.

HiG will not be providing clarifications outside of major expansions. It's up to the greater community to clarify these interactions.
HiG will have no part in it.

Offline Decar

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Re: New Expansion: Die Badehäuser
« Reply #54 on: November 20, 2018, 03:14:48 AM »
It just dawned on me that an alternative to striking is to find another drug dealer and instigate a turf war between the two rival gangs.

Offline aenima

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Re: New Expansion: Die Badehäuser
« Reply #55 on: November 20, 2018, 03:24:20 AM »
It just dawned on me that an alternative to striking is to find another drug dealer and instigate a turf war between the two rival gangs.

 ;D Right!

you're definitely right about everything! time is money! but it is also true that we have arrived at this point because now the expansions without explanations are many. If they had done each time a check for each previous expansion, I'm sure that in addition to the time to design, produce and print the product, they would have spent only 2 or 3 hours (maybe intensive) more work ... hours, these , which should be automatically monetized in the sale of a job well done.

you have another PM
« Last Edit: November 20, 2018, 03:28:37 AM by aenima »

Offline aenima

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Re: New Expansion: Die Badehäuser
« Reply #56 on: November 20, 2018, 03:37:05 AM »
I, and I believe many players, love when things are written and regulated: I do not speak only of Carcassonne: how many times, when we play any game, there is a situation where we are forced to say: "ok, this thing is not written by no part! what do we do? do we do in this way or do it in another way? "... Then, in a future game, the same situation happens and we say:" ah, this thing has already happened to us! I do not remember ... we could do it like this or so... no, it was not like that! Oh well, then let's pretend this time that... ".
For me, the frustration lies in not having everything clear, not in having to necessarily ask for clarification.

I have only a last think to say:
When what I have written happens, people usually contact the game producers. this is how the official FAQs are obtained. These are made by the producers of the game and enter or in later versions of the game or as a material to download for free. This is all free work but that is rewarded by the happiness of the fans that remain tied to that game... How long have we not got official FAQs?

Offline Decar

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Re: New Expansion: Die Badehäuser
« Reply #57 on: November 20, 2018, 03:43:24 AM »
Maybe!
I think the thing I find frustrating is people waiting for HiG to answer the questions.
For the most the community can (and does) draw out the points of contention without their input.
Things like the WICA and Carcopedia should just make those decisions clear and let players determine, how they want to proceed.

I'm pretty sure the CAR started by filling in the gaps, then seeking HiG to confirm, rather than waiting for HiG to simply answer them.

So long as the boundaries are clear the majority of players using them should be happy.

Every expansions means you have to look at the interactions of it with every other combination of expansions.
That's n! amount of work for each new release, it's not sustainable!

Offline aenima

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Re: New Expansion: Die Badehäuser
« Reply #58 on: November 20, 2018, 03:55:42 AM »
ok, so... can we open an official new tread in the forum menu like: "unofficial interaction rules for new expansions" ?
One side where we speack about them and another where the clear idea are well written.

It's just to fix them, then we put them clear in the Carcopedia, Wiki or CAR or...
« Last Edit: November 20, 2018, 04:03:43 AM by aenima »

Offline Decar

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Re: New Expansion: Die Badehäuser
« Reply #59 on: November 20, 2018, 04:38:46 AM »
There is a whole board devoted to unofficial variants:

http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?board=22.0

We'll need Dan to create a subforum is necessary.


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