Author Topic: CC II - Carcassonne New Edition - Differences in Rules  (Read 1055 times)

Offline kettlefish

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Re: CC II - Carcassonne New Edition - Differences in Rules
« Reply #15 on: May 15, 2018, 02:33:41 PM »
The next example is from the BigBox 6 rule: the mini Messengers - page 16 - the differences between English and German.

We have 2 scoring figures: a scoring meeple and a woman meeple/ the messenger. In the German rules the messenger (woman meeple) has the same rights like the normal scoring meeple, even in the last scoring phase at the end of the game.

You can get more often points - not only when a finished feature is scored.



« Last Edit: May 15, 2018, 02:54:21 PM by kettlefish »

Offline Just a Bill

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Re: CC II - Carcassonne New Edition - Differences in Rules
« Reply #16 on: May 15, 2018, 02:59:39 PM »
This is a bit confusing ... it seems like the English and German are saying the same thing for messenger tile #4, unless the German is saying that you get to deploy an additional figure (i.e., two figures on that extra tile). But I don't think that would be the case, would it? So I must not be understanding some subtlety of expression in the German version.

Also, the graphic you have for messenger tile #8 is different from the BB6 PDF rulebook that I downloaded from the German forums. That PDF file looks like this:



In other words, the following sentence does not exist in my German BB6 PDF file:

Du darfst auch einen Meeple zurücknehmen, für den du keine Punkte bekommst.

I am translating this as "You may also take back a Meeple for which you receive no points" under the assumption that what it is trying to say is, you can take back a meeple whether you DO or DO NOT have the majority. If you have the majority you score, if you don't have the majority then you do not score.

If I am correct about that, then the English seems to have mistranslated all of this as "you get the points even if you DON'T have the majority, unless you are ridiculous and decide you don't want the points; then you don't have to score anything but this is your choice." What a mess!
« Last Edit: May 15, 2018, 03:08:26 PM by Just a Bill »
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Offline kettlefish

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Re: CC II - Carcassonne New Edition - Differences in Rules
« Reply #17 on: May 15, 2018, 03:08:20 PM »
We have found a newer version of the rules - the really printed rules. When I've started this topic I found some differences between the version from the Carcassonne-Forum and the printed version from my BigBox at home.

We found the final-2 version from HiG and I hope that Maik has uploaded the newest version.

Here is the link to HiG with the newest version final-2:
https://www.hans-im-glueck.de/spiele/carcassonne-bigbox.html

But the printed version would be final-3 or so...


Offline Just a Bill

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Re: CC II - Carcassonne New Edition - Differences in Rules
« Reply #18 on: May 15, 2018, 03:12:03 PM »
But the printed version would be final-3 or so...

So even this final-2 file is not really correct?

Offline kettlefish

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Re: CC II - Carcassonne New Edition - Differences in Rules
« Reply #19 on: May 15, 2018, 03:15:25 PM »
The message 4 says:
You draw a landscape tile, place it and you can also deploy a figure on that tile like the regular rules. - That is all what the text says.

When there were the text: draw and place a tile - then the people were asking if it is allowed to place a figure on that tile.


Offline kettlefish

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Re: CC II - Carcassonne New Edition - Differences in Rules
« Reply #20 on: May 15, 2018, 03:17:55 PM »
But the printed version would be final-3 or so...

So even this final-2 file is not really correct?

Yes - I found it here with the messengers - almost at the end of page 16

the printed version of the BigBox: "Depeschen 6, 7: Der Große Meeple ist nur 1 Ritter und nur 1 Bauer."
the final-2 version of the BigBox: "Depeschen 5, 6: Der Große Meeple ist nur 1 Ritter und nur 1 Bauer."


Offline kettlefish

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Re: CC II - Carcassonne New Edition - Differences in Rules
« Reply #21 on: May 15, 2018, 03:21:40 PM »
messenge #4:

"eine weitere Figur setzen" - that means: the placement of a figure: not only the meeple or a special figure - also the neutral figure like the fairy, or a tower piece...
« Last Edit: May 15, 2018, 03:23:25 PM by kettlefish »

Offline kettlefish

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Re: CC II - Carcassonne New Edition - Differences in Rules
« Reply #22 on: May 15, 2018, 03:43:24 PM »
This is a bit confusing ... it seems like the English and German are saying the same thing for messenger tile #4, unless the German is saying that you get to deploy an additional figure (i.e., two figures on that extra tile). But I don't think that would be the case, would it? So I must not be understanding some subtlety of expression in the German version.

Also, the graphic you have for messenger tile #8 is different from the BB6 PDF rulebook that I downloaded from the German forums. That PDF file looks like this:



In other words, the following sentence does not exist in my German BB6 PDF file:

Du darfst auch einen Meeple zurücknehmen, für den du keine Punkte bekommst.

I am translating this as "You may also take back a Meeple for which you receive no points" under the assumption that what it is trying to say is, you can take back a meeple whether you DO or DO NOT have the majority. If you have the majority you score, if you don't have the majority then you do not score.

If I am correct about that, then the English seems to have mistranslated all of this as "you get the points even if you DON'T have the majority, unless you are ridiculous and decide you don't want the points; then you don't have to score anything but this is your choice." What a mess!

Messege #8
- you need the mayority of the feature -
- a feature with no points will be with game play with the 1st expansion - see almost of the end of page 16

Offline Just a Bill

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Re: CC II - Carcassonne New Edition - Differences in Rules
« Reply #23 on: May 15, 2018, 07:15:27 PM »
Messege #8
- you need the mayority of the feature -

Are you sure about that? It appears to me that both the English and the German rules do not require a majority to simply take back a follower. Majority is needed if you want to score points (in the German — the English is translated incorrectly here), but the text does not seem to require a majority when selecting a figure. But perhaps my translation is wrong, so I will break it down in case I have made a mistake...

Du wählst einen deiner Meeple auf dem Spielfeld.
You choose one of your followers on the gameboard.

There are no requirements here, so this would seem to mean any of your followers. Then the second sentence tells you whether or not you get to score.

Besitzt du dort, wo dieser Meeple steht, die Mehrheit, so wertest du das Gebiet, entsprechend der Wertung am Spielende (wobei nur du selbst Punkte bekommst).
If you have the majority where this figure stands, you score the feature according to its score at the end of the game (with only you getting points).

Since the "if" comes in the scoring sentence, it seems that you don't have to have a majority if you don't want to score. (And this seems consistent with the CAR.) Then the last sentence ...

Du darfst auch einen Meeple zurücknehmen, für den du keine Punkte bekommst.
You may also take back a follower for which you will not get any points.

... reinforces this, and seems to cover quite a few different possibilities. I can think of several ways that your figure would score no points:
  • thief on road with an inn
  • knight in city with a cathedral, or besieged
  • farmer in field with no completed cities
  • mayor in city with no pennants, or mayor on castle token
  • lord/lady on castle token
  • follower on tower
  • any feature where you don't have the majority
But have I translated anything incorrectly?

Offline kettlefish

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Re: CC II - Carcassonne New Edition - Differences in Rules
« Reply #24 on: May 16, 2018, 02:24:17 PM »
Just a Bill,
I think that is correct what you have posted.

But I still don't understand the published English rule for the message #8.
-----------------------------------------------------
And what is with the rule text next to CAUTION? What does zman games mean with that rule?
When I read the German rule and than the English rule - I am thinking that are two different rules.

free translation of the German rule:
Attention: You can only get a message during your own turn. If you score points and one of your scoring figures lands on a dark field during the turn of an other player, you can't get a message.

see the attachment in this posting from me:
http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=3950.msg58421#msg58421
« Last Edit: May 16, 2018, 02:59:35 PM by kettlefish »

Offline Just a Bill

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Re: CC II - Carcassonne New Edition - Differences in Rules
« Reply #25 on: May 16, 2018, 05:24:39 PM »
And what is with the rule text next to CAUTION? What does zman games mean with that rule?
...
free translation of the German rule:
Attention: You can only get a message during your own turn. If you score points and one of your scoring figures lands on a dark field during the turn of an other player, you can't get a message.

Wow, that translation is seriously bad! My guess is, Z-Man just runs the German text through translation software and then tries to make sense of whatever it spits out without actual German-speaking assistance. For example, if you use the PROMT online translator you will get the following: "You can receive only telegrammes if you yourself are in the train. If one of your countable figures lands in the train of another player through an evaluation on a dark field, you get no telegramme." Assuming that ZMG used a translation result similar to this, it's not hard to imagine that they could have assumed that "the train of another player" meant the scoring space of another player and just went with that. (Zug can indeed mean "train," but in the context of game rules it more often means move, action, or turn.)

This is a constant danger since English and German don't always sequence phrases in the same order. If they had realized that they needed to resequence the phrases as "lands on a dark field in the train of another player through an evaluation on a dark field," then maybe they could have guessed what "train" really represented.

Regarding that other weird Z-Man example, PROMT translates the second sentence for message #8 this way: "If you own where this Meeple stands, the majority, you evaluate the area, according to the evaluation in the playing and only you yourself get points." Here I can imagine (again assuming that they started with a translation along these lines) that they didn't know what to do with the orphaned phrase "the majority" so they mostly ignored it, and thus they interpreted "own where this Meeple stands" to mean simply "occupy the feature" — instead of understanding that they should have re-ordered the phrases as "if you own the majority where this Meeple stands...."

It's a shame they don't feel the need to seek out competent human translation to resolve things that appear questionable, or at least run their results back by HiG for confirmation. After seeing these examples, I've lost faith in the English rules; who knows how many other places there are where they just "took a wild guess" at the meaning and called it a day.

Or, maybe they have hired a human translator but the person is misrepresenting his or her skills and secretly uses machine translation! Who knows....
« Last Edit: May 16, 2018, 05:41:52 PM by Just a Bill »

Offline kettlefish

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Re: CC II - Carcassonne New Edition - Differences in Rules
« Reply #26 on: May 17, 2018, 04:46:28 AM »
To make a good translation of rules, you need to know the game Carcassonne and its expansions. Than it is really good if the person who do the translation can read and speak both languages.

My English is not perfect, but I can see the wrong rule text from zman games.

In the next days I will forward with the differences in rules for the BigBox6 - the minis.
--------------------------------------
I am still wondering why the English speaking people don't have the choice between the scoring meeple and the messenger.
They can only use the scoring meeple for the final score.

The Germans have the choice to use the scoring meeple or the woman meeple (messenger).

Offline Just a Bill

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Re: CC II - Carcassonne New Edition - Differences in Rules
« Reply #27 on: May 17, 2018, 11:16:16 AM »
I am still wondering why the English speaking people don't have the choice between the scoring meeple and the messenger ... for the final score.

Since it does not matter which figure is used, my guess would be that Z-Man thought it would help reinforce the rule that no messages are received during the final scoring if there were only regular meeples on the scoreboard and not any messengers. (In fact, if that had been the rule from the start, then we wouldn't even need the "exception" rule that messages cannot happen during the final scoring; the lack of messengers would make that happen automatically.) Z-Man may have also thought it was weird to have a rule giving the player a "choice" that has absolutely no effect on gameplay. Rules without a gameplay purpose can lead players to be concerned that they are misunderstanding something, and to ask questions of the publisher, so they may have wanted to avoid those potential issues by having simple, definitive procedure — especially there is no effect on the score either way. (I realize there could be cultural differences that make this less of an issue for a German-speaking audience; I am only speaking from an English/American perspective and my own experiences as a designer/rules writer/FAQ answerer.)

If it made any difference for gameplay, then I would be bothered by this slight change. But since the change actually has better logic with the rules and it eliminates confusion/questions, I don't have a problem with it.


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