Author Topic: CC II - Carcassonne New Edition - Differences in Rules  (Read 2311 times)

Offline kettlefish

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CC II - Carcassonne New Edition - Differences in Rules
« on: May 10, 2018, 06:58:20 AM »
I am starting here a new topic with some examples with differences in rules of the Carcassonne - New Edition (short: CC II).

I am looking between the differences of the German and English rules also the differences form the rule in the original box (base game and the expansions) and the rules of the BigBox6.

Linkback: http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=3950.0

Offline kettlefish

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Re: CC II - Carcassonne New Edition - Differences in Rules
« Reply #1 on: May 10, 2018, 07:05:34 AM »
Here is my first part.

The placement of the special figures pig and builder.
You can see in the attachments the copy of the rules (English and German).

I have marked the differences in the section for the BigBox6 rule in yellow.

I didn't make much comments in that attachments, this will be a part for discussion if you like.
Now I will show you the lists.

Offline TheSteveAllen

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Re: CC II - Carcassonne New Edition - Differences in Rules
« Reply #2 on: May 10, 2018, 07:19:22 AM »
This is a good idea Kettlefish. I have a feeling that this thread will become very useful indeed.

 :(y)

Offline Just a Bill

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Re: CC II - Carcassonne New Edition - Differences in Rules
« Reply #3 on: May 10, 2018, 08:34:39 AM »
Indeed, this is a good idea. Merit for you.

Wow, that Z-man translation on the pig paragraph is pretty bad!

German BB6
Falls dein Schwein durch Entfernen von Bauern (was durch manche Erweiterungen möglich ist) im Spielverlauf auf einer Wiese steht, auf der keiner deiner Bauern mehr liegt, nimmst du es in deinen Vorrat zurück.

Bill/Google translation (trying to be reasonably close to literal)
If your pig, due to removal of farmers (which is possible with some expansions), is left standing during the game in a field where none of your farmers are left, return it to your supply.

Z-man BB6
If your pig is removed from the field, return it to your supply.

The Z-man rule is basically useless. It only tells us what we already know, and fails to define the rule by which the pig would be removed in the first place. ::)
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Offline cletus81

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Re: CC II - Carcassonne New Edition - Differences in Rules
« Reply #4 on: May 10, 2018, 08:37:08 AM »
There is a huge difference among German and English Big Box 6 rules concerning the mini expansion 6 "the Robbers".

To my knowledge, the same difference already existed in the Big Box 4 for the Old Edition.

Offline Just a Bill

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Re: CC II - Carcassonne New Edition - Differences in Rules
« Reply #5 on: May 10, 2018, 08:50:29 AM »
There is a huge difference among German and English Big Box 6 rules concerning the mini expansion 6 "the Robbers".

Wow, yes there are two differences: (1) German explicitly allows the robber to go on the same scoring space as a messenger/woman follower; English does not. (2) German makes placing robbers optional; English makes it mandatory.

This all reminds me of the old RGG days where Jay Tummelson would just take his best shot and often get things wrong, sometimes even stating them literally backwards from the original rules.

EDIT: Hmm, I just checked the CAR and there also is (and was) some uncertainty about whether the German rules allow all players to place their robbers, or just the active player and then the one player on his left. The latter doesn't really make sense, of course, but that does seem to be what the German rules are saying and it is how the CAR presents the rule, with a footnote that Z-Man changed it to allow everyone to go.

I think I would have to agree with the CAR: in German, the references to the next player are singular, not plural, and I don't see anything that would translate as "each/every," "and so on," or "etc.", so there doesn't seem to be any indication that the remaining players get to place their robbers. That's pretty weird.

I've owned this game for 18 years and now I'm wondering if I actually play it correctly. :D
« Last Edit: May 10, 2018, 09:02:27 AM by Just a Bill »

Offline cletus81

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Re: CC II - Carcassonne New Edition - Differences in Rules
« Reply #6 on: May 10, 2018, 09:05:53 AM »
EDIT: Hmm, I just checked the CAR and there also is (and was) some uncertainty about whether the German rules allow all players to place their robbers, or just the active player and then the one player on his left. The latter doesn't really make sense, of course, but that does seem to be what the German rules are saying. The references to the next player are singular, not plural, and I don't see anything that would translate as "each/every," "and so on," or "etc.", so there doesn't seem to be any indication that the remaining players get to place their robbers. That's pretty weird.

There is no uncertainty, the example clarifies that only the active player and the next player (singular) whose robber is still in his own supply may place the robber. Thus only two players may place their robbers for each tile of this expansion. This is the huge difference comparing to English rules!!!

Offline Just a Bill

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Re: CC II - Carcassonne New Edition - Differences in Rules
« Reply #7 on: May 10, 2018, 09:28:30 AM »
Ah yes, I misread it. You are correct, the German rules are clear and the English rules are (apparently) different on purpose.

So under the German rules, it is very possible that some players could never get to use their robbers. Interesting....

Offline kettlefish

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Re: CC II - Carcassonne New Edition - Differences in Rules
« Reply #8 on: May 10, 2018, 02:03:02 PM »
The next exemple is the rule for the score of a field with pig and farmer.

The 2 pictures on top are from the box of the 2nd expansion.
The rules in the original 2nd expansion are not clear enough in both languages.

The 2 pictures on the bottom are from the BigBox6.
IThe rules are very clear in the German rule, but in the English rule, I don't understand what they like to explain.

The Enlish rule says about the pig oppupies the farm. In my opinion the meeple
as a farmer oppupies (owns) a farm. The pig helps only the farmer to get more points.
In the German rule is the farm named "Schweinewiese"- That is in my opinion not the best word. It is still a farm with a pig "Wiese mit Schwein".
What I find interesting that zman games says that the cities which a field touches would get 4 points with pig.
But what is with cities who lays in the middle of a field?

I didn't mark here - It would be more marker than you can read the text.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2018, 02:53:39 PM by kettlefish »

Offline Christianmocking

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Re: CC II - Carcassonne New Edition - Differences in Rules
« Reply #9 on: May 11, 2018, 05:17:02 AM »
Maybe also good to know if there are differences in tiles from different countries/publishers.

Offline aenima

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Re: CC II - Carcassonne New Edition - Differences in Rules
« Reply #10 on: May 11, 2018, 09:18:08 AM »
For the robber dilemma...
I think both editions are bad written... I think in the past it was well explained and written in the CAR... So, where is the problem?

Offline Sinscerly

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Re: CC II - Carcassonne New Edition - Differences in Rules
« Reply #11 on: May 11, 2018, 02:19:19 PM »
The problem is that we need to decide what is the correct implementation. It is a shame that they cannot write good rules
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Offline aenima

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Re: CC II - Carcassonne New Edition - Differences in Rules
« Reply #12 on: May 11, 2018, 11:51:57 PM »
The correct one is that from the CAR, that was made with the help of carcassonne's creators

Offline Halfling

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Re: CC II - Carcassonne New Edition - Differences in Rules
« Reply #13 on: May 12, 2018, 08:20:01 AM »
The German robber rules are so much better than what I have been playing. UK rules mean all get to use the robber giving no advantage to active player. Thanks for pointing this out Kettlefish.
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Offline Just a Bill

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Re: CC II - Carcassonne New Edition - Differences in Rules
« Reply #14 on: May 12, 2018, 08:45:56 AM »
The German robber rules are so much better than what I have been playing. UK rules mean all get to use the robber giving no advantage to active player.

Actually the unique advantage to the active player (under either ruleset) is that he alone gets to move his robber if it is already on the scoring track.

The other side of the coin with the German rules is that some players could never get to use their robber at all; this seems to favor the luck of the draw too much.

In addition, this mechanism does not scale at all between two-player and multi-player environments. With two, "everyone" gets their robber onto the scoring track. But the more players you have, the greater the likelihood of not getting to use the robber at all, and/or some players getting to re-use their robber a disproportionate number of times based purely on the luck of the draw and the luck of which chair they sat down in. The more players you have, and the more tiles you're using in the game, the worse this gets. (More tiles means a greater chance that the previously used robbers have already returned to the supply, decreasing the likelihood that the players who were "left behind" last time will be close enough to the left of the active player next time to get their chance at robbing.)

Frankly, the higher luck factor and the asymmetry combine to make this seem like a weak design to me. Or at least not a very polished design that fits the Carcassonne ethos especially well. High luck and asymmetry can work well in games designed for them, but I was actually pretty surprised to learn (after I re-read the rules and understood them) that they actually intended this mini-expansion to work that way.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2018, 09:05:28 AM by Just a Bill »


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