Author Topic: Magic Portal to an unoccupied Monastery..?  (Read 3886 times)

Offline Bungalowbelf

  • Vagabond
  • *
  • Posts: 2
  • Merit: 0
  • I haven't updated my profile yet!
    • View Profile
Magic Portal to an unoccupied Monastery..?
« on: April 01, 2018, 06:11:03 AM »
Hello!

My partner have been playing Carcassonne for a few years now and are gradually integrating the expansions. We've just got The Princess & The Dragon, and got into an argument in our first game (typical) about the rules concerning Monasteries.

If not playing with The Abbott, it stands to reason that one can play a Magic Portal piece and warp to an unoccupied Monastery, and place a meeple on it. This is the situation we're currently in.

However, when we play with other expansions, it stands to reason that an incomplete/open Monastery could have had an Abbott on it already and have been scored upon. Is it therefore closed, or can a player warp to it via a Magic Portal piece and place a meeple on it?

This may seem to be a very specific scenario but had we been playing this game with the Abbott we'd already be upon it.

Thanks all

Martin



Linkback: http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=3905.0

Offline Thrawn

  • Labourer
  • **
  • Posts: 11
  • Merit: 0
  • WTB Russian Promos
    • View Profile
Re: Magic Portal to an unoccupied Monastery..?
« Reply #1 on: April 01, 2018, 08:35:06 AM »
Hi.

In my understanding you can warp to an unoccupied and incomplete feature but unscored is not mentioned in the rules as far as I know. So I would say warping in to an already scored but still unoccupied and incomplete monastery is a legit move.

Offline flipshot

  • Freeman
  • ****
  • Posts: 64
  • Merit: 4
  • Is it time to play or sleep?
    • View Profile
Re: Magic Portal to an unoccupied Monastery..?
« Reply #2 on: April 01, 2018, 09:50:37 AM »
Yes, the only criteria for the magic portal are that the feature is both unoccupied and incomplete when placing the tile. Whether it has been scored or not or otherwise previously occupied is irrelevant.

Offline Decar

  • Global Moderator
  • Chatelain Commandeur
  • *
  • Posts: 5607
  • Merit: 241
  • Shut up and take my money!
    • View Profile
    • tehill.net
Re: Magic Portal to an unoccupied Monastery..?
« Reply #3 on: April 01, 2018, 09:57:27 AM »
Welcome to CarcC  Bungalowbelf, what a great question.

First off, a standard meeple played onto a Monastery can be called "an Abbot", and the rule say it must stay there until the end of the game.  So it makes me wonder what the intention of playing an Abbot Meeple to the Monastery is.  I'm of the opinion the that all Abbots must abide by the rule that: Abbots can't be removed from Monasteries.

However if an Abbot can be removed and scored, I would refer to the original rules that the CAR references:

p47:
Quote
102  The original rules stated that a follower could not be deployed to a feature which had not yet been scored—leaving the possibility that a follower could use a magic portal to reach a feature which had been completed, but not scored. This was corrected in an FAQ, and now in these rules. The magic portal may not be used to reach a completed feature, whether it was scored or not.

So the intention was original to not be allowed to claim features that have been scored.
The new rule is:
Quote
The usual rules must be followed—for example, the follower may not be deployed to an already occupied or completed feature.


If the Dragon eats the Abbot - I would presume the Monastery is up for grabs again, because it's unoccupied and not scored, so a Portal can be used.

Offline Decar

  • Global Moderator
  • Chatelain Commandeur
  • *
  • Posts: 5607
  • Merit: 241
  • Shut up and take my money!
    • View Profile
    • tehill.net
Re: Magic Portal to an unoccupied Monastery..?
« Reply #4 on: April 01, 2018, 10:12:12 AM »
Having read your post again I realised that you probably meant cloister, rather than the Special Monastery tiles.

I've read up on the new Princess and Dragon rules from Zman, it's open ended:

Quote
For example, you may not place a meeple in an already occupied or completed feature

The tile has been "already occupied", it just to happens to not be now...Good Job HiG/Zman  :(y)

Offline wolnic

  • Baron
  • *****
  • Posts: 962
  • Merit: 131
  • Ummm and Ahhh! Can't decide!
    • View Profile
Re: Magic Portal to an unoccupied Monastery..?
« Reply #5 on: April 01, 2018, 10:13:35 AM »
But with CarcII and The Abbot meeple, he/she can be removed from the feature before it is complete and score the number of already laid tiles when removed (assuming no other wood activity in that turn). Mrs Wolnic and I always play that the Abbot meeple can be placed on either a Garden or Cloisters (and can be withdrawn early, as a quick grab for points) and were just pondering this same scenario last night. Since we don't play with the portals at this stage it's a moot point.

I would have thought that since the Cloisters, or garden for that matter, is not yet "complete", although scored, a regular meeple (as Abbot), or Abbot meeple, could sneak into the partially completed Cloisters (either meeple type) or Garden (Abbot meeple only) via a portal, or flying machine, so long as there is at least one tile to be placed.

However, I've not read the CAR specifically on this matter - but this is probably how we'd play it. It would just add to the gamble of removing The Abbot early, knowing someone else might sneak into the unoccupied feature later and get an easy score.
Complete: AutumnForest (C2), Catch Of The Day (C1/2/WD), Cliffs&W'falls (C1/2), Coast (C1/2), FishHuts (C2), Fluvium (C2), NewForest (C2), Harvest (C1/2), Stone Circles (C1/2), Wells (C2), Jordan River 2 (AotC)
Development: Sakura (C2), WinterEdge (C1), WinterCoast (WD/WE) and others

Offline Mikeagan

  • Duke
  • *
  • Posts: 150
  • Merit: 5
  • I am interested in any expansion for CARC2.
    • View Profile
Re: Magic Portal to an unoccupied Monastery..?
« Reply #6 on: April 01, 2018, 10:36:32 AM »
First off, a standard meeple played onto a Monastery can be called "an Abbot", and the rule say it must stay there until the end of the game.  So it makes me wonder what the intention of playing an Abbot Meeple to the Monastery is.  I'm of the opinion the that all Abbots must abide by the rule that: Abbots can't be removed from Monasteries.
These are Old Art Rules of Placing a Regular Meeple as an Abbot on a Monastery (from German Monasteries, Dutch Monasteries, Temples in Japan...) and have no bearings on the Abbot Meeple.

Here is a change in names (which I use in my games) that better distinguishes the three so as not to confuse all three different placements on Monasteries(Cloisters - Old Art Name).

1. A Regular Meeple on Monastery standing up is called a Monk and is scored with normal scoring by surrounding the Monastery to complete.

2. An Abbot Meeple on Monastery standing up is called an Abbot and is scored with normal scoring by surrounding the Monastery to complete. This Abbot Meeple has the special ability to be removed and thus scored early.

3. A Regular Meeple on Monastery laying down is called an Abbot (a Missionary) and is scored at the end of the game. At the end of the game, add up all the tiles that are vertical and horizontal to the Monastery including the Monastery tile itself and score one point per tile. I use the term Missionary because he is spreading his faith across the board throughout the game in a cross shape/pattern, it also distinguishes it as a separate entity from the Abbot Meeple so there is no confusion about what is being referred to at any moment during the game.
My CARC2 homemade expansions:
SUMMER GINGERBREAD MAN.

Offline Just a Bill

  • Marquis
  • ***
  • Posts: 474
  • Merit: 47
  • I'm still in beta.
    • View Profile
Re: Magic Portal to an unoccupied Monastery..?
« Reply #7 on: April 01, 2018, 10:40:42 AM »
I use the term Missionary because he is spreading his faith across the board ...

Reading the CAR's comments on the abbot leads me to think that prior could be a good substitute.

Anyway...

The reason to play an abbot figure (C-II) in an abbot role (C-I) would be to have the option to remove it early for a partial scoring of the monastery. I don't see any reason why the abbot figure wouldn't have the choice to deploy in either monk/cloister or abbot/monastery "mode" just like a normal follower does. It makes sense, it's good gameplay, and it works.

The rule that "the abbot remains on the tile during the game and does not return to the player" is really just for contrast vs. normal cloister gameplay in which monks often return to the supply before the game is over. The rule describes the general case for abbot/monastery gameplay, but it would not be an absolute restriction for all possible scenarios.

For example, I highly doubt we would consider that this sentence prevents early removal of an abbot from a cloister, shrine, abbey, garden, or monastery due to the dragon, a festival, tower capture, catapult knockout or seduction, or the messenger tile that allows removal and early scoring of any one follower. Nothing in the CAR states or implies that abbot-role followers are somehow different from all other followers for any of those effects above. Thus I can't see any logical reason why an abbot figure deployed in an abbot role should be prevented from removing itself early from the monastery to score partial points, just as it can from a cloister, abbey, shrine, or garden. (It's highly parallel to the previously mentioned messenger-tile scenario, and very logical.)

So I totally allow it.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2018, 10:44:57 AM by Just a Bill »
My stuff: The Caverns of Carcassonne | Wheel of Fortune versions | True North (wind roses) | Icon facelifts | Converting CII to CI | Signposts & the Château | The Vault | Riverboats & the Whirlpool | trade list

Offline Mikeagan

  • Duke
  • *
  • Posts: 150
  • Merit: 5
  • I am interested in any expansion for CARC2.
    • View Profile
Re: Magic Portal to an unoccupied Monastery..?
« Reply #8 on: April 01, 2018, 11:25:34 AM »
I use the term Missionary because he is spreading his faith across the board ...

Reading the CAR's comments on the abbot leads me to think that prior could be a good substitute. 

I would not be opposed to using the term Prior vs Missionary, I didn't even think of that name. I just came to the conclusion that the other form of placement needs a unique name to distinguish it from the Abbot Meeple(Figure).

Anyway...

The reason to play an abbot figure (C-II) in an abbot role (C-I) would be to have the option to remove it early for a partial scoring of the monastery. I don't see any reason why the abbot figure wouldn't have the choice to deploy in either monk/cloister or abbot/monastery "mode" just like a normal follower does. It makes sense, it's good gameplay, and it works.

The rule that "the abbot remains on the tile during the game and does not return to the player" is really just for contrast vs. normal cloister gameplay in which monks often return to the supply before the game is over. The rule describes the general case for abbot/monastery gameplay, but it would not be an absolute restriction for all possible scenarios.

For example, I highly doubt we would consider that this sentence prevents early removal of an abbot from a cloister, shrine, abbey, garden, or monastery due to the dragon, a festival, tower capture, catapult knockout or seduction, or the messenger tile that allows removal and early scoring of any one follower. Nothing in the CAR states or implies that abbot-role followers are somehow different from all other followers for any of those effects above. Thus I can't see any logical reason why an abbot figure deployed in an abbot role should be prevented from removing itself early from the monastery to score partial points, just as it can from a cloister, abbey, shrine, or garden. (It's highly parallel to the previously mentioned messenger-tile scenario, and very logical.)

So I totally allow it.
That seems logical to me... so then

1. A Regular Meeple on Monastery standing up is called a Monk and is scored with normal scoring by surrounding the Monastery to complete.

2. An Abbot Figure on Monastery standing up is called an Monk and is scored with normal scoring by surrounding the Monastery to complete. The Abbot Figure has the special ability to be removed and thus scored early.

3. A Regular Meeple on Monastery laying down is called a Prior and is scored at the end of the game. At the end of the game, add up all the tiles that are vertical and horizontal to the Monastery including the Monastery tile itself and score one point per tile.

4. An Abbot Figure on Monastery laying down is called a Prior and is scored at the end of the game. At the end of the game, add up all the tiles that are vertical and horizontal to the Monastery including the Monastery tile itself and score one point per tile. The Abbot Figure has the special ability to be removed and thus scored early.

Offline Rosco

  • Duke Chevalier
  • *
  • Posts: 1621
  • Merit: 41
  • Racing, and playing hard!
    • View Profile
Re: Magic Portal to an unoccupied Monastery..?
« Reply #9 on: April 02, 2018, 12:12:07 AM »
Using the names above - but an abbot figure cannot be used as a prior can it? And be removed mid game?? That could add some serious scoring potential if used with portals or the count or flyer.

Sent from my SM-A320FL using Tapatalk

Just lay the damn tile!

Offline Sinscerly

  • Viscount
  • ****
  • Posts: 706
  • Merit: 28
  • Loving to play.
    • View Profile
    • WikiCarpedia - Wiki-CAR
Re: Magic Portal to an unoccupied Monastery..?
« Reply #10 on: April 02, 2018, 01:36:33 AM »
Using the names above - but an abbot figure cannot be used as a prior can it? And be removed mid game?? That could add some serious scoring potential if used with portals or the count or flyer.

Sent from my SM-A320FL using Tapatalk
I think you cannot remove it then...
But is the abbot meeple aloud to be placed on that tile, as far I know only normal meeples right?
"What things can you find? Things that are hidden?
In for a new league?: 2020 New league?

Offline Just a Bill

  • Marquis
  • ***
  • Posts: 474
  • Merit: 47
  • I'm still in beta.
    • View Profile
Re: Magic Portal to an unoccupied Monastery..?
« Reply #11 on: April 02, 2018, 07:09:59 AM »
but an abbot figure cannot be used as a prior can it? And be removed mid game?? That could add some serious scoring potential if used with portals or the count or flyer.

Whether an abbot figure can or cannot be used in the abbot role is not explicitly addressed by the rules or the CAR, so we have to infer an interpretation. I'm pretty sure HiG will not even want to rule on this unless and until they publish monastery expansions for C-II. However, speaking with my rules-writer's hat on, I have to believe that if monasteries had existed in C-II prior to (or concurrent with) the abbot, HiG would have written the abbot restriction as deploying to a cloister, monastery, or garden. It only makes sense to go that route, since monasteries are basically cloister replacements. They're quite literally just fancy cloisters with a secondary scoring mode.

Consistent with that, the CAR does casually refer to monasteries as "cloisters" even when not talking about the specific cloister-style scoring option. Not that this is definitive, but it does provide a hint that the general feeling is "monasteries are cloisters with a little twist."

Personally I think it should be allowed, because it improves the game. And I bristle at the thought of a ruling that "an abbot cannot serve as an abbot, only a monk"; that's just daft. A ringmaster or a wagon can be an abbot, but an abbot can't be an abbot?

Regarding the concern about serious scoring potential with portals/count/flyer, I agree that there are some nice combos there — but I don't think they are out of line. For starters, the CAR points out that no figure (not even normal followers) can redeploy from the City of Carcassonne to a monastery in abbot mode. (That seems unnecessary to me, but it's official.) So don't worry about that one. As for portals and flyers, those are only going to come up rarely, and you have to be lucky: for the portal there needs to be an empty, unfinished monastery available, and for the flyer you have to get the right roll on the die.

Frankly, if an unoccupied, unfinished monastery has been left just lying around somewhere with a crapload of tiles spreading out in four directions for a big score, then I think somebody should find a way to land a figure on it and harvest those points!  :)

But is the abbot meeple aloud to be placed on that tile, as far I know only normal meeples right?

Monasteries are not limited to standard wooden meeple-shaped followers. They can hold any of the following:
  • standard follower
  • large follower
  • phantom
  • wagon
  • ringmaster
  • abbot (certainly as a monk; arguably also as an abbot)
« Last Edit: April 02, 2018, 07:12:39 AM by Just a Bill »

Offline Whaleyland

  • Great Khan
  • Authors
  • Marquis Chevalier
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 2581
  • Merit: 85
  • Toulouse: Carcassonne's insignificant neighbor.
    • View Profile
    • Derek R. Whaley | Historian & Writer
Re: Magic Portal to an unoccupied Monastery..?
« Reply #12 on: April 02, 2018, 03:44:01 PM »
I'm pretty sure HiG will not even want to rule on this unless and until they publish monastery expansions for C-II.
They have a Monstaries expansion for Carcassonne II. In fact, it was the very first CCII promo: Japanese Temples.

Offline Just a Bill

  • Marquis
  • ***
  • Posts: 474
  • Merit: 47
  • I'm still in beta.
    • View Profile
Re: Magic Portal to an unoccupied Monastery..?
« Reply #13 on: April 02, 2018, 06:59:59 PM »
... Japanese Temples.

D'oh! Quite right. How stupid of me to forget, considering I even own a copy of it....

Anybody know if they ever ruled on this? (Good question for kettlefish, prob'ly.)

Offline Bungalowbelf

  • Vagabond
  • *
  • Posts: 2
  • Merit: 0
  • I haven't updated my profile yet!
    • View Profile
Re: Magic Portal to an unoccupied Monastery..?
« Reply #14 on: April 02, 2018, 10:48:20 PM »
Hello all!

Wow, thank you for a comprehensive answer and interesting discussion!

Much appreciated!

Kind regards


Share via delicious Share via digg Share via facebook Share via furl Share via linkedin Share via myspace Share via reddit Share via stumble Share via technorati Share via twitter

  Subject / Started by Replies / Views Last post
xx
magic portal

Started by oldbonz

1 Replies
704 Views
Last post May 16, 2019, 07:36:50 AM
by Meepledrone
xx
magic portal

Started by davide

7 Replies
719 Views
Last post January 31, 2021, 10:57:24 AM
by Meepledrone
xx
Bug Report: Magic Portal

Started by rfielder

1 Replies
1286 Views
Last post May 24, 2015, 03:02:20 AM
by farin
xx
Magic portal and volcano

Started by Leven

4 Replies
85 Views
Last post February 19, 2021, 07:35:47 AM
by Leven
xx
Interaction of Magic portal and Fliers

Started by Snowmax

3 Replies
419 Views
Last post July 08, 2020, 02:47:30 PM
by Snowmax