Author Topic: The Status of La Porxada  (Read 3148 times)

Offline Decar

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The Status of La Porxada
« on: June 30, 2017, 03:22:10 AM »
La Porxada is an unofficial expansion.  It was not sanctioned by the the Carcassonne publisher and license owner Hans Im Glueck. 
Only 72-stickers were produced and given out at the Jugarxjugar 2010 fair.

I'd like to lobby BoardGameGeek to consider re-list this tile because I believe it's current status is driving illegitimate tiles to be produced and sold for a black-market.
It's essentially impossible to tell if a produced tile is real or not, because they were only produced as stickers, on what appears to be a home-printer.
Artwork contained on these tiles belongs to the Publisher and it is illegal to produce and sell them.
As I said, I think the BGG is misleading to less-experienced Carcassonne collectors and the mythical status of this tile is driving a black-market.

The question is what should it be listed as.  Currently, only fan-expansions must be listed as such. BGG States that the tiles were designed by Klaus-Jürgen Wrede, though this is not cited anywhere, so I believe the expansion is not a fan-expansion even though it is unofficial.

I currently feel the term:  'authorised-expansion' would be the most suitable.  Quite literally: it's sanctioned by the author and not the publisher.


As I mentioned earlier, there are several other tiles which are also mythical in status.  If BGG feels the author's sanctioning is enough to list it as an official expansion; I believe the alternative is to list Dan's Advent Calendar Quiz Tile should also be listed on BGG:  It has been signed by the Author, and it's a sticker and not offcially recognised by the publisher.

Some of your thoughts on this would be appreciated!

Linkback: http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=3447.0

Offline dirk2112

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Re: The Status of La Porxada
« Reply #1 on: June 30, 2017, 04:16:44 AM »
I don't think it matters how you classify it, people are going to want it.   

If publishers truly have no desire to ever print La Porxada, Darmstadt, and a few other tiles (Corn Circles I) ever again, it would be nice if they would declare it abandoned intellectual property.  That way it would be legal for someone to reproduce them and fans could complete their collections.  I don't know why publishers hold on to things that have no value to them. 

Think of all the records and movies that never made the transition to new formats. 

Offline Decar

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Re: The Status of La Porxada
« Reply #2 on: June 30, 2017, 04:30:46 AM »
I think the desire is driven by the mislabelling though:

Darmstadt and Corn Circles I - were printed and published by HiG they are of a totally different status, which I'm not considering here.
It doesn't make sense for them to abandon La Porxada... It never existed to them.

Check out this fan-expansion for 7 Wonders attached - I don't see many people creating nock-offs of these because they're labelled correctly.

Offline Squiffything

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Re: The Status of La Porxada
« Reply #3 on: June 30, 2017, 05:00:24 AM »


Check out this fan-expansion for 7 Wonders attached - I don't see many people creating nock-offs of these because they're labelled correctly.

 :-X :-X :-X   ::) ::) ::)

I'm saying nothing :)
Oooo, look at all the meeples

Offline Decar

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Re: The Status of La Porxada
« Reply #4 on: June 30, 2017, 05:02:28 AM »
Sorry I should have been clearer:  "Creating knock-offs to SELL"

Offline Squiffything

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Re: The Status of La Porxada
« Reply #5 on: June 30, 2017, 05:12:38 AM »
 ;D ;D ;D

Offline Just a Bill

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Re: The Status of La Porxada
« Reply #6 on: June 30, 2017, 05:30:58 AM »
I don't know why publishers hold on to things that have no value to them. 

Because they can't be sure it will never have value for them in the future. They can see that there is no tangible value to them in abandoning the IP, but there just might be future value in holding onto it.

Frankly most content publishers don't give a crap how satisfied we are with the completion status of our obsessive collections. They are concerned with protecting and expanding their future income possibilities. (And that's perfectly rational.) When we want something that we don't yet have, that equals potential food on their table.

The irony is, they want to satisfy our wants, but they never really want to fully satisfy our wants or they're out of business.
My stuff: The Caverns of Carcassonne | Wheel of Fortune versions | True North (wind roses) | Icon facelifts | Converting CII to CI | Signposts & the Château | The Vault | Riverboats & the Whirlpool | trade list

Offline Yashin-n

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Re: The Status of La Porxada
« Reply #7 on: June 30, 2017, 05:36:00 AM »
In my opionion only the person vested with author's rights can claim about their violation. If You are not an official representative of KJW, HIG or other publisher You can't claim copyright infringement because this case does not affect You  (Your rights are not violated).This is a legal approach to the matter.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2017, 05:37:46 AM by Yashin-n »

Offline danisthirty

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Re: The Status of La Porxada
« Reply #8 on: June 30, 2017, 06:18:34 AM »
In my opionion only the person vested with author's rights can claim about their violation. If You are not an official representative of KJW, HIG or other publisher You can't claim copyright infringement because this case does not affect You  (Your rights are not violated).This is a legal approach to the matter.

I'm not sure I follow. Are you suggesting that only HiG/ KJW and/ or their legal representatives are allowed to call people out on copyright infringement because they're the ones affected by it? I'm no expert by any stretch of the imagination but I'm pretty sure that that's not how it works. On the contrary, as fans of the game we are supporting those who make it and should feel obliged to help look out for stuff like this. Nobody wins if we all let it go and the publishers go out of business because of it...
Heroically snatching defeat from the jaws of victory since 2018

Offline Yashin-n

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Re: The Status of La Porxada
« Reply #9 on: June 30, 2017, 07:38:21 AM »
I agree with you that we should support official publishers and Author/Designers of the game. We can inform them about the facts of illegal distribution of unofficial  tiles/expansions. And they (and not we) have to decide whether these people violate THEIR (not our) copyrights or not (maybe KJW  is happy that La Porxada is sold on BGG ).
 And  I believe that the best way to deal with illegal sellers -  don't buy their product. It is good personal decision of each of us.

In my opionion only the person vested with author's rights can claim about their violation. If You are not an official representative of KJW, HIG or other publisher You can't claim copyright infringement because this case does not affect You  (Your rights are not violated).This is a legal approach to the matter.

I'm not sure I follow. Are you suggesting that only HiG/ KJW and/ or their legal representatives are allowed to call people out on copyright infringement because they're the ones affected by it? I'm no expert by any stretch of the imagination but I'm pretty sure that that's not how it works. On the contrary, as fans of the game we are supporting those who make it and should feel obliged to help look out for stuff like this. Nobody wins if we all let it go and the publishers go out of business because of it...

Offline Decar

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Re: The Status of La Porxada
« Reply #10 on: June 30, 2017, 07:40:28 AM »
Thank you all for the input so far.

Personal decisions are based on the information that person has available to them.  I think the information on BGG is currently inaccurate.  I think it should be adjusted to reflect the status of the expansion.

Offline Yashin-n

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Re: The Status of La Porxada
« Reply #11 on: June 30, 2017, 09:35:51 AM »
Sorry, Decar! But what status of La Porxada do you mean? Site BGG call it unofficial expansion, publisher and designers are listed. What's wrong?

Offline Decar

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Re: The Status of La Porxada
« Reply #12 on: June 30, 2017, 09:38:45 AM »
I'd like to lobby BoardGameGeek to consider re-list this tile because I believe it's current status is driving illegitimate tiles to be produced and sold for a black-market.

The question is what should it be listed as.  Currently, only fan-expansions must be listed as such. BGG States that the tiles were designed by Klaus-Jürgen Wrede, though this is not cited anywhere, so I believe the expansion is not a fan-expansion even though it is unofficial.

.....

I currently feel the term:  'authorised-expansion' would be the most suitable.  Quite literally: it's sanctioned by the author and not the publisher.

Offline Yashin-n

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Re: The Status of La Porxada
« Reply #13 on: June 30, 2017, 10:32:36 AM »
Designer (Oriol Comas) is  listed, artist - too,   so it is clear that there is copyright for the mini expansion. Distribution of copyright is defined by agreement (oral or written) between KJW and Oriol Comas (and maybe HiG and Devir).
Where do you want to insert "authorised " in the site of BGG? Instead of designer, publisher or someone else?
« Last Edit: June 30, 2017, 10:37:48 AM by Yashin-n »

Offline Just a Bill

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Re: The Status of La Porxada
« Reply #14 on: June 30, 2017, 10:40:51 AM »
I currently feel the term:  'authorised-expansion' would be the most suitable.  Quite literally: it's sanctioned by the author and not the publisher.

This makes sense to me.

As an aside:
All this discussion has led me to read the rules for this tile again, and I have to say that they are pretty leaky (poorly defined). Users on BGG asked some (unanswered) questions, and I have others. Unfortunately, the English text in CAR 7.4 is more of a loose paraphrase than an actual translation of the original La Porxada rulesheet (I can read Spanish). For example, "any player who had a knight in the city containing La Porxada may score all unfinished cities containing his or her followers as if they were finished" does not have the same implications as the original, which translates as "all the cities not completed by the player or players who have knights in the city where La Porxada exists [do] count as if they were finished." There are multiple significant differences there: optional vs. mandatory, certain players vs. everyone, counts for scoring only itself vs. counts for scoring anything (or any other purposes). So I'm adding this to my list of things to revisit/discuss for the CAR update.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2017, 01:18:12 PM by Just a Bill »


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