Author Topic: Carcassonne II terminology  (Read 1135 times)

Offline kettlefish

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Re: Carcassonne II terminology
« Reply #15 on: May 06, 2018, 06:25:43 AM »
Shepherd:
The Shepherd is a special figure - see the rule for the 9th expansion (German rule - page 1 last sentence).

Offline Just a Bill

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Re: Carcassonne II terminology
« Reply #16 on: May 06, 2018, 06:27:29 AM »
I think that the HiG publisher gaves the rules for translation to Z-man before we corrected that sentence in the German rules.

Thank you; that could explain why this and other things are not defined clearly in the English rules.

The German rule stays clear that a pig can be placed onto a farm/field (German: Wiese=meadow) when there is still an own meeple onto that farm. That means that a meeple as a farmer was placed in a previous turn of that player.

My point was that the English rules (at least) do not actually state when this can happen. Nowhere do they say that the pig must be placed instead of deploying a meeple (i.e., as a move-wood action), and they also do not use the word "deploy." They simply say that you place the pig onto a field occupied by your farmer (the Englush rules actually do not require that the farmer had to be placed on a previous turn). This could easily lead new players to think you can deploy a farmer and then place your pig with it. Of course, those of us who have played the game with the benefit of the CC-I rules know what the intention is, but the Englush rulebook for CC-II does not actually define this. This information is missing.

That's all I was trying to point out.

You can find the definition which figures are neutral figures  in the BigBoxes CC I.
...
You can find the definition of figures like the dragon, barn and the shepherd iin the BigBoxes CC I.

I understand how all these things are defined from the CC-I rules. My comments in this thread have been focused on how the CC-II rules have subtly changed how gameplay is defined. These changes may have been intentional or and/unintentional, and it sounds like at least one of them is a consequence of corrections not being given to Z-Man, but my focus has been to discuss the final result of the English rules that were actually published.
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Offline kettlefish

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Re: Carcassonne II terminology
« Reply #17 on: May 06, 2018, 06:33:35 AM »
The rule for the 2nd expansion is not perfect in the original rule shet of the box.

We did the correction reading for the BigBox 6 (published in 2017), and there you will find the correct rule for the builder and the pig.

Offline kettlefish

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Re: Carcassonne II terminology
« Reply #18 on: May 06, 2018, 06:49:39 AM »
The author is German, the first publisher HiG is from Germany. The english rule are from publishers who have only a license from HiG.

The CAR (CC I) based onto the original rules from the German publisher. In the footnotes are the differences what the English version have also the information about the rule change during all the years of Carcassonne also the clarification of rules.

How can I help with clarification of rules if you don't use the correct function of all the figures?
« Last Edit: May 06, 2018, 10:33:24 AM by kettlefish »

Offline Just a Bill

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Re: Carcassonne II terminology
« Reply #19 on: May 06, 2018, 11:50:38 AM »
How can I help with clarification of rules if you don't use the correct function of all the figures?

I think we are having two different conversations here. Thank you for your help.

-Bill

Offline Decar

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Re: Carcassonne II terminology
« Reply #20 on: May 10, 2018, 01:41:15 AM »
There are so many wooden bits; I treat each as their own.

Offline Just a Bill

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Re: Carcassonne II terminology
« Reply #21 on: May 10, 2018, 06:19:48 AM »
So reading through the English and German rules for Big Box 6 does indeed paint a better picture of the intended terminology for C-II than the earlier rulebooks did. It's good that HiG finally cleared some of these things up last year.

Unfortunately the English rules have additional mistakes and differences vs. the German. Some of these are just weird translation choices, like rendering Mistgabel as "rake" when it clearly means (and clearly looks like) a pitchfork. Two completely different tools, as any farmer or gardener will know.

Others are more gameplay-affecting, such as the rule on page 13 that you can only place your builder in a feature where you have a "normal meeple." Normal meeple is a game term consistently used to mean only the 7 pieces of wood you get from the base game; it purposely excludes the other meeples in the expansion sets, and is used in contexts where only an original base-game meeple applies. The German rules do not make this mistake (rough translation: "one of your own meeples must be located"), so according to BB6.DE you can place your builder next to a mayor, wagon, large follower, etc., but according to BB6.EN — as written, anyway — you cannot.

I would guess that either this is another case of corrections not being given to Z-Man, or else somebody at Z-Man thought they were making things more clear when in reality they were making them incorrect (I've seen this happen too many times over the years; non-editors trying to "improve" rules without proper editorial review).

However, there is a problem in both languages on page 24: They forbid the Abbot from using the Flying Machine, when we know it can, both from how the individual rules for the abbot and the flying machine are defined and also from the specific ruling on this point issued in 2015 (CAR footnote 384). Kettlefish, do you know if this was an intentional rules change in Big Box 6, or just an error?
« Last Edit: May 10, 2018, 08:07:46 AM by Just a Bill »

Offline kettlefish

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Re: Carcassonne II terminology
« Reply #22 on: May 10, 2018, 07:38:33 AM »
I have opened a new topic in the official rules section here at CarcC.

Here is the link to the topic: "CC II - Carcassonne New Edition - Differences in Rules"
http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=3950.0

It is interesting, because there I have also find the wrong English BigBox rule with the builder.

I've looked into my handwritten sheeds from last year - I am missing the Abbot meeple there... - That was the base for my information to HiG.
But I have an Excel list (which I gave also HiG) - I have there the Abbot can go flying with the flying machine.
I will translate the excel list and make an update (it is from 2016).
There are all the players figures (players colours).

In the BigBox6 we remembered HiG to put the Abbot into the first row, but forgot to put the Abbot also in the second row (with the flying machines). The Abbot can only land onto a monastery/cloister and onto a garden (CAR footnote 385, from 03/2015).
« Last Edit: May 10, 2018, 09:55:33 AM by kettlefish »


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