Author Topic: CAR for Carcassonne v2  (Read 13970 times)

Offline Just a Bill

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Re: CAR for Carcassonne v2
« Reply #30 on: May 08, 2017, 08:37:47 PM »
I would like to volunteer to help with the next CAR update. I have professional experience as a game designer, rules writer, rulings guru, proofreader, technical editor, and expert word processor on such games as Cosmic Encounter, Chrononauts, and most of Decipher's CCGs/TCGs (for example, I wrote the majority of the enormous Second Edition Rulebook and Glossary for the Star Wars CCG). And of course I love Carcassonne.  :green-meeple:

As my résumé, I offer the 115,000-word Cosmodex, an encyclopedia for Cosmic Encounter. I've built the Cosmodex almost entirely by myself, and am solely responsible for the research, writing, organization, page layout, and conversion of the illustrations. For almost seven years now I've kept it up to date for each new expansion set.
My stuff: The Caverns of Carcassonne | Wheel of Fortune versions | True North (wind roses) | Icon facelifts | Converting CII to CI | Signposts & the Château | The Vault | Riverboats & the Whirlpool | trade list

Offline aenima

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Re: CAR for Carcassonne v2
« Reply #31 on: May 09, 2017, 12:52:34 AM »
yeeee this is a great news!!!

Offline danisthirty

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Re: CAR for Carcassonne v2
« Reply #32 on: May 09, 2017, 05:43:54 AM »
yeeee this is a great news!!!

^ what he said!

I'm very happy for you to proceed with the new version "Just a Bill". Is there anything you need/ want from the community to help you on your way or do you have enough to get started with it already?

Obervet was the member here who was responsible for maintenance of the original/ old artwork CAR. His templates/ tools/ images etc are available if you think these would be useful? Or would prefer to make a fresh start?

Thanks in advance for your efforts. Can't wait to see the end result...
Heroically snatching defeat from the jaws of victory since 2018

Offline Decar

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Re: CAR for Carcassonne v2
« Reply #33 on: May 09, 2017, 06:19:14 AM »
Don't think many here have a resumé as good as that. And those that do: don't have the time.

Good luck with your endeavour!

Offline Just a Bill

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Re: CAR for Carcassonne v2
« Reply #34 on: May 09, 2017, 08:42:12 AM »
Is there anything you need/ want from the community to help you on your way or do you have enough to get started with it already? ... Obervet was the member here who was responsible for maintenance of the original/ old artwork CAR. His templates/ tools/ images etc are available if you think these would be useful?

So here's what I'm thinking. Please tell me what does/doesn't make sense to you all; I'm the newcomer in the clubhouse and I want to be helpful without stepping on toes. I would wish/hope/expect that this would be a collaborative project, with the consensus of the key members of the community. I don't mind shouldering a lot of the grunt work, but when it comes to decisions about how something should be presented/interpreted/etc. then I expect those things to be collaborative. (Granted, there shouldn't be nearly as much of this for Carcassonne as there is for Cosmic Encounter, thank goodness.)

I am in awe of what Obervet (and those who helped him) have created. I started playing Carcassonne very shortly after it was published, but had not picked it up in several years until just recently. I had no idea how much I had missed, and the CAR has been a godsend for me in getting back up to speed. I really like the format, and the judicious use of footnoting was a stroke of genius for keeping the whole thing both readable and manageable. (Boy I wish I had footnoting capabilities for the Cosmodex.)

So I really have no desire to start from scratch. I don't see any "issues" with the CAR that I would recommend changing, other than the fact that it needs some updates for more recent expansions, and a few editorial nips and tucks here and there (which any document of this magnitude will always require). I very much would like to start with all the materials that are available, to minimize my workload (!) but more importantly to maximize continuity for all the users of the CAR. I think the best way to initially serve the community would be with a CAR 7.5 that "catches up" all the missing content that's relevant for Carcassonne v1.

And that brings us to the big caveat (and how I might be about to get myself fired). My thoughts have been focused mostly on the idea of "finishing" the v1 CAR, but I just noticed that the topic of this thread is actually a v2 CAR. I'm actually not a fan of v2 — not at all. The artwork change is something I view in a pretty negative light. I understand some of the reasons why it was done (better printing technology, freshen the brand, plan for the day when Doris is no longer available, etc.), but I still don't like how garish it looks, nor how the birth of v2 requires the death of v1. I don't think I can bring myself to mix the two styles, and I am for sure not going to shell out the pile of cash needed to re-buy everything. The one and only v2 tile I own is the Labyrinth, and that of course was not even intentional. ;)

So does this mean I'm unwilling to help with a v2 CAR? No, of course not. It's still Carcassonne, even if it's not the Carcassonne I want. (There's plenty of Cosmic Encounter material that I find low quality, but I do my duty and add it to the Cosmodex.) However, I'm not going to own the materials, and I won't have the same enthusiasm for v2 that I have for v1. So thinking back to when kettlefish mused whether anyone had asked Obervet if he wants to buy all the new stuff ... please understand that I do not want to buy all the new stuff. And more importantly, over time I expect that v2 will continue to experience rule changes; and that some of these rule changes may or may not be in the best interest of v1. (Obviously HiG has to do what's best for the product they are actually selling now.) So I want to be clear up front that if there continues to be a segment of the player community that wants to defend the best interests of v1, I will be sympathetic to that group. The more open-minded folks who embrace all the new stuff — the true, "Full Carcassonnians" — may find my dinosaur opinions irritating.

Personally, I think I'd prefer to see two distinct CARs, for a few reasons. First, there will be players who only own v1 and players who only own v2, and for all of those folks the "opposite" material would be additional bloat (in a document that is really already too big for most people to print, for v1 already and v2 later). Second, HiG is not going to keep making cross-version rulings, and so there will be a growing number of "holes" in the document where interactions between v1 and v2 content are undefined. This will lead to an increasing number of house rules and community-consensus rulings, which over time will erode the authenticity of the CAR (and could lead to fracturing of the player community as these rulings are argued upon). And third, as previously mentioned, there is the real possibility that new rule changes for v2 could come at the expense of v1. (Just look at the history of the HiG/RGG differences and the ensuing chaos.) So I would propose (as an idea for discussion) a CAR v1 and a CAR v2, along with a "compatibility guide" that offers recommendations for playing the two systems together. The compatibility guide could include the majority of the player-community consensus rulings.

I realize, however, that a lot of the serious, longtime players will find that unsatisfying. Those who are mixing the styles together perceive all of Carcassonne as one big game, and will probably want all their rules in one place. Thus a combined CAR may become inevitable. In that case, what I would propose would be that we first complete the v1 CAR and then "fork" off a combined v1+v2 CAR. Those players who have no intention of accumulating the new art can simply become hermits in v1 land and content themselves with their completed CAR 7.5 or 7.6 or whatever. (In fact, I would propose that the combined CAR begin its numbering at 8.0, to leave a few version numbers available for the last few minor updates to the "old" CAR before the community finally abandons it and gets fully assimilated by "Carcasstwwo.")

Offline reddalek

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Re: CAR for Carcassonne v2
« Reply #35 on: May 09, 2017, 08:54:13 AM »
+1 vote for a separate CAR for Carcassonne 2 from me. As a relatively new player of the game who's collecting only Carcassonne 2 tiles, I would (selfishly) prefer to have a CAR with exclusive artwork and rules. I own all of the Carcassonne 2 materials so would be happy to contribute here where it's helpful.

Offline danisthirty

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Re: CAR for Carcassonne v2
« Reply #36 on: May 09, 2017, 09:50:33 AM »
Is there anything you need/ want from the community to help you on your way or do you have enough to get started with it already? ... Obervet was the member here who was responsible for maintenance of the original/ old artwork CAR. His templates/ tools/ images etc are available if you think these would be useful?

{all loads of stuff}

I think I agree with pretty much everything you wrote. There are two distinct opportunities:

1) complete work on the v1 CAR up to the point that the old artwork finishes
2) start a new CAR for v2 and keep it up to date with new developments

I agree that the two artwork versions should have separate documents, and it makes sense in terms of readability too as a single CAR would not be coherent considering all the rules that already exist (and will come to exist) that vary between the two versions.

With regard to the decisions, I'm sure you will have the support and input of many members of CarcC in this project so feel free to ask for feedback/ guidance as necessary and I'm sure you'll get a good response.

Offline Just a Bill

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Re: CAR for Carcassonne v2
« Reply #37 on: May 09, 2017, 10:40:58 AM »
I agree that the two artwork versions should have separate documents, and it makes sense in terms of readability too as a single CAR would not be coherent considering all the rules that already exist (and will come to exist) that vary between the two versions.

I realized just after posting that the terminology differences alone would be a nightmare. "For example, a thief/highwayman525 of another colour can score a road which goes through a finished tunnel." "The player receives 2 points for each pennant/coat of arms450." Over and over and over ... yikes. And just imagine the unreadable mess of having to qualify when meeple means follower vs. when it means figure, hundreds of times throughout the document so that players of both versions can interpret all the rules correctly. :P

Then there's the next divisive question: which style of tiles to use for all the examples? Both? (Heaven forbid.)

Pretty sure all that would significantly downgrade the beauty and usability of Obervet's work.

With regard to the decisions, I'm sure you will have the support and input of many members of CarcC in this project so feel free to ask for feedback/ guidance as necessary and I'm sure you'll get a good response.

Excellent. And everyone please don't be shy about telling me when I'm ruffling feathers in the clubhouse ... I don't know all the unwritten rules yet.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2017, 10:44:20 AM by Just a Bill »

Offline ny1050220

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Re: CAR for Carcassonne v2
« Reply #38 on: May 09, 2017, 12:51:13 PM »
Then there's the next divisive question: which style of tiles to use for all the examples? Both? (Heaven forbid.)
If there are both version in one single file, we might consider alternating between the two when giving examples. Look at Canada!
Random example:

Offline chrismalenurse

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Re: CAR for Carcassonne v2
« Reply #39 on: May 09, 2017, 02:42:32 PM »
Am I missing  something?  Don't the new rules supersede the old rules? Even if you play with the old tiles shouldn't the newest rules be the rules in effect?



Why would you need 2 CARs?
« Last Edit: May 09, 2017, 02:46:12 PM by chrismalenurse, Reason: Autocorrect »

Online whaleyland

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Re: CAR for Carcassonne v2
« Reply #40 on: May 09, 2017, 03:14:24 PM »
Am I missing  something?  Don't the new rules supersede the old rules? Even if you play with the old tiles shouldn't the newest rules be the rules in effect?



Why would you need 2 CARs?
People will definitely disagree with you on that. The old rules had Farm rules as a core component while the new rules make Farms an optional component. That alone is a major shift.

While they are technically the same game and the version 2 rules are the official tournament rules, Hans im Glück has simplified everything somewhat and streamlined the rules. People who have been playing since the beginning may be put off by things like the Wagon (from Abbey & Mayor) suddenly operating differently. More rules changes may be coming in future expansions. We just don't know. And the rules regarding interactions between expansions have also changed, so there's that to consider as well.

Just A Bill, I also will support you in whatever way I can with your rules. I think 2 documents is the way to go. Excise from observet's version all the version 2 material and toss those into a new document. That way we can put an end, once and for all, to the old CAR rules and let it sit as a monument to our favourite past-time that it should be.

Offline DaFees

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Re: CAR for Carcassonne v2
« Reply #41 on: May 09, 2017, 06:03:34 PM »
I agree with a lot of what has been said recently. I think two separate documents will please the most people. It may not be the perfect solution but then again a perfect solution may not be possible. Regardless of all the Carcassonne v2 stuff that is or will be available I am greatly interested in seeing a complete Carcassonne v1 document. I own the German Castles and Haflings expansions but I've been hesitant on playing with them too much primarily because rules for them don't exist in the CAR and that there is a lot of questions surrounding those two.

One thing though I think we should keep in mind, going forward, is what the devs behind the iOS carcassonne app do. It is a very well done board game adaption and regarded as one of the best board game apps on iOS if not mobile in general. The thing is everything they do apparently has HiG's blessing. This means the rules for how expansions interact with each other all had to be approved by HiG or so I assume. This hasn't lead to anything we didn't already know, yet but it might. The thing is some people might play this digital version more so than the physical version and so when they play the physical version may rely on what they learned/know from the digital version to guide their playing of the physical version. The only real interesting thing to happen so far was the adding of the Abbot expansion. Granted it is easier for the devs to adapt this expansion to the game than it is for us playing it physically but still.

I guess my point is this what happens in the future if the devs add the new 10th expansion to the game or what happens when they add the Abbey & Mayor expansion to the game? What wagon rules will the use? v1, v2 or will they give players a choice? Also what would happen if we as a community make a rules decision around an expansion and then they later put that expansion in the digital version but the rules the use differ from what we decided. Would we as a community accept or reject this? I mean I am sure the devs have / had a lot of the same questions we do and I'm sure they check these forums for input but if HiG gives them final approval then who knows.

Granted the devs haven't added new content to the game in a while but they are working on new content. Either way it is something to think about.

Offline danisthirty

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Re: CAR for Carcassonne v2
« Reply #42 on: May 10, 2017, 12:48:55 AM »
While they are technically the same game and the version 2 rules are the official tournament rules...

I agree with the rest of your post whaleyland but am not 100% on this as I didn't see any Abbots at the world championships (not that I was taking part). We've never used them at the UK championships either, despite using the new artwork tiles.

@DaFees - rather than being aligned with the iOS app, we need to be aligned with HiG. If the iOS app is aligned with HiG then that is great, but if there is ever a difference we would probably seek "official" clarity from HiG. In the past, this has been achieved through one of our global moderators and key members of the forums here - kettlefish - who semi-works for HiG in that she is responsible for proof reading of rules for many of the new expansions that have been released. She meets annually with HiG (or at least she used to) to get a definitive answer to any rules questions that we can't resolve by ourselves. As long as this continues, I think the CAR v2 should follow their direct guidance...

Offline kettlefish

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Re: CAR for Carcassonne v2
« Reply #43 on: May 10, 2017, 02:16:09 AM »
While they are technically the same game and the version 2 rules are the official tournament rules...
I agree with the rest of your post whaleyland but am not 100% on this as I didn't see any Abbots at the world championships (not that I was taking part). We've never used them at the UK championships either, despite using the new artwork tiles.
The Carcassonne World Championship uses the tiles from the New Edition, and they play with the farmer. But they don't use the Abbot and also not the River.
http://carcassonne-meisterschaft.de/en/tournament.htm
In German we have the "Bauer" = farmer onto the "Wiese" = meadow - we never talk about a "Feld" = field.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2017, 02:19:46 AM by kettlefish »

Online whaleyland

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Re: CAR for Carcassonne v2
« Reply #44 on: May 10, 2017, 02:17:38 AM »
While they are technically the same game and the version 2 rules are the official tournament rules...

I agree with the rest of your post whaleyland but am not 100% on this as I didn't see any Abbots at the world championships (not that I was taking part). We've never used them at the UK championships either, despite using the new artwork tiles.
Well technically the Abbots are an "inspansion". What I mean to say is that if an official tournament were to use an expansion (which they usually do not), they would undoubtedly use the rules included in the new art. People around here are so ancient that they still play with the old Farm rules. Don't get me started!

Quote
@DaFees - rather than being aligned with the iOS app, we need to be aligned with HiG. If the iOS app is aligned with HiG then that is great, but if there is ever a difference we would probably seek "official" clarity from HiG. In the past, this has been achieved through one of our global moderators and key members of the forums here - kettlefish - who semi-works for HiG in that she is responsible for proof reading of rules for many of the new expansions that have been released. She meets annually with HiG (or at least she used to) to get a definitive answer to any rules questions that we can't resolve by ourselves. As long as this continues, I think the CAR v2 should follow their direct guidance...
Last I checked, Hans im Glück isn't making official rulings anymore except for those found in their rules booklets. That doesn't mean that problems present within a single rules booklet can't be asked, only that they will not answer questions relating to expansion cross-compatibility. At least that is what it sounds like from kettlefish.


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