Author Topic: The Goldminers: Gold Removal Question  (Read 11148 times)

Offline danisthirty

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The Goldminers: Gold Removal Question
« on: May 30, 2013, 03:43:53 AM »
Hello all.

I have a somewhat fiddly question regarding The Goldminers and what order gold should be removed from the board if two features are completed at the same time. I’ve done my best to describe the potential situation below but please let me know if it isn’t clear.

I place a tile that completes both a road and a city. The road is shared equally with another player whereas the city is entirely mine. Aside from the tile I’ve just placed, there is one other tile which forms part of both the completed road and the completed city and this has a gold bar on it. An adjacent road tile has another gold bar on it.

Once the road and the city have been scored, I can collect the gold from the two features. My question relates to which feature (the road or the city) should have its gold removed first in light of the following:

If I were to take the gold for the city first then I would take two gold bars i.e. one bar for the city followed by one bar the road. The player I shared the road with would have been entitled to a bar but there wouldn’t have been any left to share with him as I took the gold for the city first so there was only one bar left on the road (which I then took).

If I were to take the gold for the road first then I would take one gold bar and the player I share the road with would take the other. When I then come to take the gold for the city there would be none left.

Has anybody ever been in this situation (or one similar to it)? If so, how did you resolve it? I would guess that it’s up to the player to decide so in this case I’d take the gold from the city followed by the road in order to get both bits. I wasn’t sure if there was any kind of recommended ruling on this though so wanted to check with anyone else who may have been here before.

Thanks!


Linkback: http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=279.0
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Offline BT

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Re: The Goldminers: Gold Removal Question
« Reply #1 on: May 30, 2013, 04:13:11 AM »
According to the CAR:
"When more than one player has the majority in a finished structure when gold is to be claimed, or when several structures with a claim to gold are completed at the same time, the gold pieces are distributed among those claiming players. Distribution proceeds clockwise, starting with the active player, until all of the corresponding gold pieces have been awarded."

My interpretation is that you would score the city first and then the road, as the scoring for the city doesn't need majority established. If there was a gold piece remaining for the road, then the distribution starts with the active player, but as the gold piece has already been distributed it doesn't matter.

My vote would be that the active player should get all the gold pieces in your scenario.

Offline danisthirty

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Re: The Goldminers: Gold Removal Question
« Reply #2 on: May 30, 2013, 05:35:42 AM »
Thanks for the response BT.

I've read the CAR quite carefully several times and am familiar with the part you mentioned, but don't quite see that it addresses this question directly. I'm inclined to agree with you though that it should be left to the player to decide which feature they take the gold from first. But if I was the player sharing the road I might disagree as this would mean that I'm missing out on a gold bar!

Offline Fritz_Spinne

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Re: The Goldminers: Gold Removal Question
« Reply #3 on: May 30, 2013, 07:00:27 AM »
German rules say:

Quote
Ausgehend vom aktiven Spieler nehmen sich alle beteiligten Spieler in
Spielerreihenfolge je ein Goldstück, auf das sie Anrecht haben. Das geht
so lange, bis alle betroffenen Goldstücke genommen wurden.

That is: The active player takes one gold he has the right to take, then next player takes one he has the right to take and so on.
If the first player takes the only gold, both players have the right to take, the first player will get all gold.

Offline harvster

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Re: The Goldminers: Gold Removal Question
« Reply #4 on: May 30, 2013, 07:44:31 AM »
Interesting question that I had to deal with recently as well.  I took a different approach, please let me know what you think.  :-)

My attempt at interpreting this rule (as previously quoted from the CAR) is that the first sentence is only used to determine who is eligible.  The second sentence is then used to determine the means of distribution.  For me the distribution sentence does not specifically state how the number of features a player has determines the number of gold they can take in any one turn.  The number of features is only stated in the eligibility sentence, and seemingly only for the purpose of eligibility.  Also the distribution sentence only states the order that the players must take and says nothing about the order that the features must have their gold allocated.  Nor is the order of completed features addressed in the eligibility sentence, only that a player needs to have a completed feature(s) to be eligible to grab the gold from that completed feature(s).

Does any of that make sense?!  I'm hoping that my attempt at trying to be clear hasn't made things worse!  :-)

So in the given example the active player gets one gold (taken from either feature), while the second player can only take from the road feature.  The smart move by the active player is to take the gold from the road first, leaving the second player with no gold to claim, after which the active player can then take from the city.  In any case, in either interpretation, the second player will miss out!  :-)

Also note - if the city and road were both completed by a tile that finishes the road at the wall of the city then both players are eligible to take any gold that is then placed on that tile (if it has a "gold" icon on it).  In this instance the difference between our two interpretations will result in a different distribution (the active player getting both gold compared to both players getting one gold each).  At the moment it's the only situation I can think of when the results would be different!  :-)

Offline harvster

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Re: The Goldminers: Gold Removal Question
« Reply #5 on: May 30, 2013, 07:46:23 AM »
German rules say:

Quote
Ausgehend vom aktiven Spieler nehmen sich alle beteiligten Spieler in
Spielerreihenfolge je ein Goldstück, auf das sie Anrecht haben. Das geht
so lange, bis alle betroffenen Goldstücke genommen wurden.

That is: The active player takes one gold he has the right to take, then next player takes one he has the right to take and so on.
If the first player takes the only gold, both players have the right to take, the first player will get all gold.


Here I am carrying on for ages and Fritz manages to say the same thing but much more succinctly!  :-)

Offline Carcking

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Re: The Goldminers: Gold Removal Question
« Reply #6 on: May 30, 2013, 12:38:56 PM »
I would say there is technically no sequence in scoring the features. All the completed features are "scored" simultaneously upon completion of the corresponding features, while not losing their individual value (for purposes of the Robber, Messenger, etc.). Otherwise, the order in which the scores are resolved on the scoreboard is irrelevant.

What we know is that players involved in scoring features where gold resides are eligible to collect gold, if it's available. Starting with the current player the opportunity to collect gold passes to the left. If there is no gold left on the feature which granted the player his eligibility, he will collect no gold.

Here are a couple new questions though:
1. If a player scores a castle is he eligible to collect any gold that is on the feature that triggered the castle score, even if not in the vicinity of the castle? Let's say gold exists on a relevant road on the 6th and 7th tiles away from the castle.

2. If there is gold in the vicinity of his castle is he elegible to collect it when his castle scores, even if they are not on the feature that triggered the castle score?

« Last Edit: May 30, 2013, 02:26:55 PM by kettlefish, Reason: changed colour in "question for HiG" blue »
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Offline harvster

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Re: The Goldminers: Gold Removal Question
« Reply #7 on: May 31, 2013, 09:15:28 AM »
1.  No.  The player must have the majority on any of the completed features that the gold resides on.
"When several players tie with the majority in a completed feature with gold bars or several features with gold bars are completed at the same time, the distribution is managed as follows: starting with the active player and continuing in player order, all players who score completed features with gold bars take one gold bar for each feature they score and that has gold bars."
So although this player may have their city completed at the same time as the road, there is nothing for them to collect because no gold resides on their city.
If however the player had a monastery that was completed at the same time as the road, and the gold that lay on the road was also on any of the nine tiles that make up a completed monastery (ie the monastery tile and its eight adjacent tiles) then that player becomes eligible to collect a gold bar for their completed feature after the active player collects their gold first.  In this case a smart move by the active player would be to start collecting any gold that lies on the road with the scope of the monastery first and then collect any gold outside it (but still on the completed road).  The player with the monastery can collect any gold that falls within its completed area, regardless of whether it's on the completed road or not.

2.  All features that are completed by the placement of a tile must now have any gold that resides on them collected.
"When a feature is completed and the tiles of the completed feature have one or more gold bars, these gold bars are distributed."
So a tile that completes a city (regardless of whether that tile has any gold on it or not) means the city can now have any gold that is on it is now collected by the player with the majority on that feature.  Any gold in the vicinity, but not actually on the city, cannot be collected.

Phew!  How's all that?  :-)

Offline Carcking

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Re: The Goldminers: Gold Removal Question
« Reply #8 on: May 31, 2013, 11:11:00 AM »
harvster - are these intended to be answers to the castle questions?  ???

Offline kettlefish

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Re: The Goldminers: Gold Removal Question
« Reply #9 on: May 31, 2013, 11:30:17 AM »
Carcking,
I think it could be helpful if we have a picture for your examples...

Offline Carcking

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Re: The Goldminers: Gold Removal Question
« Reply #10 on: May 31, 2013, 12:02:07 PM »
Carcking,
I think it could be helpful if we have a picture for your examples...

I'll try this weekend to make the scenarios.

Offline kettlefish

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Re: The Goldminers: Gold Removal Question
« Reply #11 on: May 31, 2013, 12:22:14 PM »
Hi Carcking,
I think I have a picture for your 2nd question.

Quote
2. If there is gold in the vicinity of his castle is he elegible to collect it when his castle scores, even if they are not on the feature that triggered the castle score?

(the just placed tile has a red line around)

The castle scores 4 Points for the first finished feature: the city. In that city was no follower.

The picture: "Burg und Goldmine2":

There is one gold piece at one of the 6 tiles around the castle. It doesn't matter that the feature (that triggered the castle score) is not on the same tile like the gold piece. RED receives this gold piece.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2013, 04:56:17 PM by kettlefish, Reason: Result of the answer from Christof Tisch - HiG »

Offline kettlefish

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Re: The Goldminers: Gold Removal Question
« Reply #12 on: May 31, 2013, 12:32:50 PM »
Carcking,
And here comes an example perhaps for your 1st question.
(But it is a city - not a road - sorry)

Quote
1. If a player scores a castle is he eligible to collect any gold that is on the feature that triggered the castle score, even if not in the vicinity of the castle? Let's say gold exists on a relevant road on the 6th and 7th tiles away from the castle.

(the just placed tile has a red line around)

RED: The castle scores 20 points for the first finished feature: the city.
BLUE: The city scores 20 points.

The picture: "Burg und Goldmine1":

Situation 1: BLUE is the active player who places the tile. BLUE is the first who can take a gold piece. BLUE decided to take first the gold piece from the left side of the blue follower (= right below the castle). Then RED takes the gold piece above right diagonally from the castle. Then BLUE takes the gold piece at the button from the city.

BLUE gets 2 gold pieces and RED gets one gold piece.



Situation 2: RED is the active player who places the tile. RED is the first who can take a gold piece. RED decided to take first the gold piece from the left side of the blue follower (= right below the castle). Then BLUE takes the gold piece at the button from the city. Then RED takes the gold piece above right diagonally from the castle.

BLUE gets 1 gold piece and RED gets 2 gold pieces.

------------------------------------------------------------

The picture: "Burg und Goldmine3":

The two gold pieces are not at the 6 tiles around the castle. RED doesn't receive any gold piece. BLUE receives 2 gold pieces.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2013, 04:24:50 PM by kettlefish, Reason: Result of the answer from Christof Tisch - HiG »

Offline Carcking

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Re: The Goldminers: Gold Removal Question
« Reply #13 on: May 31, 2013, 12:44:13 PM »
Hi Carcking,
I think I have a picture for your 2nd question.

Quote
2. If there is gold in the vicinity of his castle is he elegible to collect it when his castle scores, even if they are not on the feature that triggered the castle score?

(the just placed tile has a red line around)

The castle scores 4 Points for the city.

Yes, exactly. Does Red collect the gold in the vicinity of his castle since it is scoring? I would think yes.

Offline kettlefish

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Re: The Goldminers: Gold Removal Question
« Reply #14 on: May 31, 2013, 12:48:36 PM »
Hi Carcking,
I think I have a picture for your 2nd question.

Quote
2. If there is gold in the vicinity of his castle is he elegible to collect it when his castle scores, even if they are not on the feature that triggered the castle score?

(the just placed tile has a red line around)

The castle scores 4 Points for the city.

Yes, exactly. Does Red collect the gold in the vicinity of his castle since it is scoring? I would think yes.
I think also yes.


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