Author Topic: Flier, Halflings and German Castles interactions  (Read 5176 times)

Offline cidervampire

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Flier, Halflings and German Castles interactions
« on: April 16, 2016, 07:20:54 PM »
If a flyer moves diagonally down the diagonal split of two adjoining halfling tiles does it count it as two tiles (if so where would it land if it only moved one space) one tile or no tiles (it sneaks down the split!)

Linkback: http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=2631.0

Offline ARabidMeerkat

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Re: Flier, Halflings and German Castles interactions
« Reply #1 on: April 17, 2016, 02:55:43 AM »
I totally agree with Christopher on the rules especially if we already have set rules in place for the BC&B castle pieces for things like fliers, towers etc.

The barn placement makes perfect sense in that the long edge already provides 'two corners' if we treat the GC as two tiles.

A other way to think of the barn is to look at how we treat it with the WoF and City starter tiles. Do they count as one or as 9/12 respectively?

The answer to that and how we treat the castles in BC&B with many features should give us the answer to this original question about builders and their interaction with the component
If only I had another Halfling.....

Offline Hounk

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Re: Flier, Halflings and German Castles interactions
« Reply #2 on: April 17, 2016, 03:35:59 AM »
WoF and Count are a completely different thing. First, they count as seperate tiles. Count in it's common form, are even seperate tiles, while in WoF the borders are drawn onto it. The more important issue, nevertheless, is, that the "double tile" is placed upfront. You have to lay the "third" tile and therefore open potential barn options for other players. Or leave the spot like it was, and nobody can place the barn on next turn. (Unless doing some combo with builder, which is first not that easy to pull off, and second depending on the luck of drawing a fitting second tile.) You could even place your castle right next to the City or WoF on your first turn, possibly as well connected to the pig tile from River II, if the "long edge applies as 2 corners" rule is taken.

Offline asparagus

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Re: Flier, Halflings and German Castles interactions
« Reply #3 on: April 17, 2016, 03:42:19 AM »
My interpretation of German castles would have been that they are two tiles. That said I think the one tile rule has some merit. It makes the German castles more interesting tactically. It follows that this rule applies ONLY to German castles. Therefore two matching halfling tiles should be treated as a single tile. The 12-tile city of Carcassonne should be treated as 4x3 (even if it is a tableau) and so on.

My understanding is that with Carc II they missed an opportunity. They should have hired a rules lawyer to rewrite the base rules so that how expansions are interpreted is clear and to have a  system of noting stepping on canon name-space.

Offline ARabidMeerkat

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Re: Flier, Halflings and German Castles interactions
« Reply #4 on: April 17, 2016, 05:00:53 AM »
My understanding is that with Carc II they missed an opportunity. They should have hired a rules lawyer to rewrite the base rules so that how expansions are interpreted is clear and to have a  system of noting stepping on canon name-space.

Surely this is what makes the game of Carcassonne one of the best and most versatile! Since the rules aren't always clear, it brings people togetger from all ovrr the worlf to have these discussions.

If the rules were as clear as day, I don't really think many forums would have much going for them beyond sharing experiences, expansion/variant creations or organising games

Offline Hounk

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Re: Flier, Halflings and German Castles interactions
« Reply #5 on: April 17, 2016, 05:01:51 AM »
The 12-tile city of Carcassonne should be treated as 4x3 (even if it is a tableau) and so on.
There is no doubt about that. It is still the same expansion, just a "special edition", which the same rules aply to as ever. Furthermore, there is not a single feature on the tile, which would count as "2 tiles". The only rule, where it makes a difference is with cloisters and similar features. But if you place a cloister for putting a monk on, you normally look out for spots, where there are at least 4 tiles already connecting, anyway. So, it would make no sense, regarding an edge, denying the 3 points, which could be made by a connection to this big starting tile, and reducing it to just one point. But like I wrote before: it makes the whole difference, when you place a big tile during the game, even more so, when it's a tile from your supply, not a randomly drawn one.

Offline Decar

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Re: Flier, Halflings and German Castles interactions
« Reply #6 on: April 17, 2016, 08:07:15 AM »
If a flyer moves diagonally down the diagonal split of two adjoining halfling tiles does it count it as two tiles (if so where would it land if it only moved one space) one tile or no tiles (it sneaks down the split!)

To answer Cidervampire's question, at the moment it is undefined. The easy bit is, if it falls into a void, it's returned to the player's hand.  This is covered in the CAR (we'll see later).

Kettlefish has been kind enough to explain that tiles whether regular, German Castles or Halflings are one-tile regardless of their physical dimensions.  She confirmed this last year, but there are many specific examples left unexplained.

Halflings introduce the problem of continuity into the landscape and decide if the small edge of the Halfling tile connected to the edge of a normal tile produces a continuous landscape.  You also have to decide if Flyers can fly over null-space:

First, I'll describe what I mean by a continuous landscape.  If you zoom infinitely close to the edge of a halfling and a normal tile.  Do you think the features are connected?



I'll now describe null-space.  It's basically a gap in the landscape.  Can a flyer fly over this gap in the landscape?



Let's check the CAR - It's not particularly clear.  But I think the assumption is 'Yes' it can because, the CAR says:

Quote
If the follower cannot be placed (because only completed structures and field segments are present, or because there is not a landscape tile at the location of the flight’s end), the follower is taken back by the player and placed in his stock.

So that leaves us to think about two things:

If you think the halfling and regular tiles ARE connected, it seems reasonable that you can ignore the gap:

It looks like this:



But, If you accept this, then I think you also have to accept that this shows one continuous farm:


This doesn't feel right to me, because it also means these farms are all connected:

And interestingly can you put a Barn on that?

So the alternative, is to assume that the space isn't connected and the flyer must count out the spaces following the 'one-tile' rule:



Which I think answers the question using our current understanding;  I believe kettlefish also did an example similar to this for Dragon Movement.


Interestingly this leads to a really interesting null-space/1-tile problem, that also needs to be clarified:

If Flyers can fly over nullspace and a German Castle takes the space of one-tile: then it follows that a flyer can use the dimensions of a German Castle when flying over null-space:


Offline Yashin-n

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Re: Flier, Halflings and German Castles interactions
« Reply #7 on: April 17, 2016, 10:38:50 AM »
I think Flier can move over the gaps, but of course cann't be placed on a gap. The distance that the Flier will fly should be mesuared in common tile lehgth.
 "If the small edge of the Halfling tile connected to the edge of a normal tile produces a continuous landscape?" In my opinion there is no  a continuous landscape in such junction.


Offline asparagus

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Re: Flier, Halflings and German Castles interactions
« Reply #8 on: April 17, 2016, 12:22:29 PM »
If a Carc II abbot is on a monastery with neighbouring vineyards, and the abbot is removed early, do the vineyards score? I would assume that little houses do as they score at the end anyway.

Offline cidervampire

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Re: Flier, Halflings and German Castles interactions
« Reply #9 on: April 17, 2016, 01:30:27 PM »
Hi Decar, thanks for the diagrams. In the example with the flyers going over the half tiles, what would happen if the flyer tile was above the one in your example and the angle of flight was diagonally down to the right? If you roll a 1, which half tile would you land on?

I think in the case of a void you would have to count it as one space per missing regular tile rather than play Schrodingers Tile and philosophise as to the whether there may be a castle or halflings there! ???  8) ::)
« Last Edit: April 17, 2016, 01:34:21 PM by cidervampire »

Offline Decar

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Re: Flier, Halflings and German Castles interactions
« Reply #10 on: April 17, 2016, 02:09:21 PM »
Seems that the regular size of the tile is best, unless it's a German Castle then.  But the Flyer is able to an 'exact number of tiles' in a given direction, so it may fly 1 German Castle Tile if necessary.

There's a few options with diagonals:

Let's get the easy one out of the way.  We talked about null-space before and how flyers can traverse null-space:



Although a Flyer has to fly a 'number of tiles'.  So, if halflings are 1 tile, and 2 are two then this seems logical:



However, if the diagonal was the other way and the tiles were connected this would make sense.  Each halfling is 1 tile away and they're connected continuously through the other tile:



This leaves me wondering if this seems reasonable:



One of the halfling tiles is 2 tiles away, not one tile way, but perhaps it should be this:



What if neither are continuously connected, are they still 1 tile away then?



But before you start saying that null-space is size one and only one, don't forget this cloister is worth:



17 points, because each Halfling is only one tile.

Offline asparagus

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Re: Flier, Halflings and German Castles interactions
« Reply #11 on: April 17, 2016, 02:23:28 PM »
But before you start saying that null-space is size one and only one, don't forget this cloister is worth:



17 points, because each Halfling is only one tile.

The CAR says: "If there are 2 triangular tiles in the same square “space”, they still only count as 1 point (together) for scoring a cloister."

Offline Decar

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Re: Flier, Halflings and German Castles interactions
« Reply #12 on: April 17, 2016, 02:24:12 PM »
The CAR has not been updated since Kettlefish spoke with Georg Wild last Essen

Offline asparagus

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Re: Flier, Halflings and German Castles interactions
« Reply #13 on: April 17, 2016, 02:26:02 PM »
The CAR has not been updated since Kettlefish spoke with Georg Wild last Essen

Well I am currently lost.

Offline Decar

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Re: Flier, Halflings and German Castles interactions
« Reply #14 on: April 17, 2016, 02:28:35 PM »
It's earlier in this thread, here's a link:

http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=2125.msg29727#msg29727

I conjectured this a bit higher up when coming to terms with the 'one-tile' rule.


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