Author Topic: Traders and Builders  (Read 12782 times)

Offline deepwoods

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Traders and Builders
« on: March 15, 2013, 06:12:31 PM »
3 Questions regarding Builders:

First question:

1st turn I place a follower.
2nd turn I place a builder, while at the same time completing the road or city. Therefore, the bulder is removed. As a result, I do not get my bonus turn on the next play.

Correct or incorrect?

Second question:

1st turn I place a knight in a city.
2nd turn I place another city tile with the builder.
3rd turn I place an additional city tile, but it's not directly connected to the city with the builder. I am placing it to extend the builder's city in an attempt to attach to an opponents city in a future move.

Do I get my bonus turn even though this 3rd tile placement does not yet attach to my existing city with the builder?

Third Question:

The annotated rules state - "If the road or city is not completed during the course of the double turn, the builder remains in play. The player may take double turns for as long as the road or city remains incomplete".

This sounds too bizarre. If I'm reading it correctly, I can choose not to complete my road or city with a builder and therefore, continue taking double-turns for the rest of the game. Does this mean I can take double turns anywhere I choose or are my double turns restricted to the road or city the builder is on? Up until now I always thought the builder permits only one additional bonus turn, but the above rule contradicts this.

Thank you everyone for your help


Linkback: http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=200.0

Offline Scott

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Re: Traders and Builders
« Reply #1 on: March 15, 2013, 07:52:45 PM »
1. Correct, if the builder is deployed AND removed during the same turn, you do not get a "bonus turn".
2. No, you may only get a "bonus turn" by extending the city containing the builder.
3. You have misunderstood. You only get a "double turn" by extending the city containing the builder. You can theoretically extend the city with the builder every turn without ever completing the city (though in practice you will not always draw a tile with a city segment).

Offline Carcking

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Re: Traders and Builders
« Reply #2 on: March 16, 2013, 08:48:23 AM »
First question:

1st turn I place a follower.
2nd turn I place a builder, while at the same time completing the road or city. Therefore, the bulder is removed. As a result, I do not get my bonus turn on the next play.

Correct or incorrect?

There is no value in placing the builder in a feature you are completing on that play. The builder would come right off after scoring and return to your supply. Since the feature the builder is in was not extended while the builder was there, but rather just prior to the builder being there, an extended turn is not generated.

Second question:

1st turn I place a knight in a city.
2nd turn I place another city tile with the builder.
3rd turn I place an additional city tile, but it's not directly connected to the city with the builder. I am placing it to extend the builder's city in an attempt to attach to an opponents city in a future move.

Do I get my bonus turn even though this 3rd tile placement does not yet attach to my existing city with the builder?

In your 2nd turn you may only place the builder into a feature that you already occupy. Hopefully, that is clear as a premise to your 3rd turn.

Your description of your 3rd turn may be somewhat puzzling. I think you are saying you are extending the city containing your builder without connecting to the actual tile the builder is on? Is that correct? If that is so, then yes, you do earn an extended turn. The builder grants the extended turn when the feature he is in (regardless of which tile) is extended by you on your turn. The proximity of the builder to the extending tile is not important, only that he already occupies the extended feature.

Third Question:

The annotated rules state - "If the road or city is not completed during the course of the double turn, the builder remains in play. The player may take double turns for as long as the road or city remains incomplete".

This sounds too bizarre. If I'm reading it correctly, I can choose not to complete my road or city with a builder and therefore, continue taking double-turns for the rest of the game. Does this mean I can take double turns anywhere I choose or are my double turns restricted to the road or city the builder is on? Up until now I always thought the builder permits only one additional bonus turn, but the above rule contradicts this.


IMO It should have been worded "The player may generate an extended turn on each of his turns that the feature containing the builder is incomplete." The extended turn is generated by extending the feature containing the builder. Keep in mind a chain reaction within a turn is not permitted. In other words, only one extended turn may be generated on any given turn.

So yes, you can have an extended turn each turn for the rest of the game if you are able to extend that feature each turn. There is no limit.
I just drew the perfect tile for my MonKnighThieFarmer!

Offline deepwoods

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Re: Traders and Builders
« Reply #3 on: March 19, 2013, 08:02:45 AM »
Thank you - Things are clearing up. One last question.

I read somewhere that builders can be placed elsewhere on bonus turns if one of my followers occupies that road or city. In other words, I have an unfinished city with a builder and on a "bonus turn only" I can remove the builder without finishing the city and place it into another road or city that I add a tile for, that currently has one of my followers.

Correct?

Thank you.

DW.

Offline Chuckles

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Re: Traders and Builders
« Reply #4 on: March 19, 2013, 08:26:32 AM »
Thank you - Things are clearing up. One last question.

I read somewhere that builders can be placed elsewhere on bonus turns if one of my followers occupies that road or city. In other words, I have an unfinished city with a builder and on a "bonus turn only" I can remove the builder without finishing the city and place it into another road or city that I add a tile for, that currently has one of my followers.

Correct?

Thank you.

DW.

This is incorrect. Once your builder is on a feature, he is stuck on that feature until it is completed. The only way you can move a builder on a bonus turn is if you complete the feature on your first turn, thereby returning the builder to you, and then on your bonus turn you add to a feature you already have and then play the builder on this feature.

Offline Carcking

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Re: Traders and Builders
« Reply #5 on: March 19, 2013, 09:57:36 AM »
Thank you - Things are clearing up. One last question.

I read somewhere that builders can be placed elsewhere on bonus turns if one of my followers occupies that road or city. In other words, I have an unfinished city with a builder and on a "bonus turn only" I can remove the builder without finishing the city and place it into another road or city that I add a tile for, that currently has one of my followers.

Correct?

Thank you.

DW.

This is incorrect. Once your builder is on a feature, he is stuck on that feature until it is completed. The only way you can move a builder on a bonus turn is if you complete the feature on your first turn, thereby returning the builder to you, and then on your bonus turn you add to a feature you already have and then play the builder on this feature.

This is correct. Nice work on the answer Chuckles, and welcome to the CC forum. I would add though that Festival would also allow you to remove a Builder, as the mechanic allows you to remove followers and figures.

Offline deepwoods

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Re: Traders and Builders
« Reply #6 on: March 19, 2013, 07:09:19 PM »
Thank you - that answers my question.

Cheers

DW

Offline danisthirty

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Re: Traders and Builders
« Reply #7 on: May 16, 2013, 09:19:40 AM »
Just as an aside, could someone please confirm whether a bonus turn is allowed when a feature containing a builder is completed? For example, if I have a city with a builder in it and place a tile that completes the city, would I still get the bonus turn that would normally follow if I’d extended the city without completing it? Technically the city has been extended so it seems logical that the bonus turn should be allowed, but I know players who would say that no bonus turn is given if the city (or road) containing the builder is completed on the first turn.

Many thanks!
Dan
Heroically snatching defeat from the jaws of victory since 2018

Offline Carcking

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Re: Traders and Builders
« Reply #8 on: May 16, 2013, 01:40:47 PM »
Just as an aside, could someone please confirm whether a bonus turn is allowed when a feature containing a builder is completed? For example, if I have a city with a builder in it and place a tile that completes the city, would I still get the bonus turn that would normally follow if I’d extended the city without completing it? Technically the city has been extended so it seems logical that the bonus turn should be allowed

Welcome to the CC Forum danisthirty! Glad to have you along with a nice thought provoking question.

Here is the answer. Yes - with these clarifications.
It must be on your turn.
The completing of the feature must extend it also. Keep in mind that an Abbey can complete a feature without extending it.

With that said, you said something in your last sentence which leads me to believe you may not have the sequencing down right.

but I know players who would say that no bonus turn is given if the city (or road) containing the builder is completed on the first turn.

Getting an extended builder play is actually a three step process.
First step - you must occupy the feature (a wood move from a previous turn).
Second step - on a subsequent wood move you may deploy your builder to a feature you already occupy if you play a tile that extends that very feature.
Third step - the next time you play a tile that extends that feature you earn the extended turn.

Technically, you can deploy the builder on the tile that completes the feature (the second step) but you will not earn the extra turn because you did not make it to the third step - the builder was not already there when you played the tile. Given this, you are not able to complete a feature containing the builder on the "first turn" as you indicated in your post.

Offline danisthirty

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Re: Traders and Builders
« Reply #9 on: May 17, 2013, 05:28:12 AM »
Thanks for the welcome Carcking, and for your helpful response!

You have answered my question, even though I didn't phrase it in the most clear of ways. When I mentioned "on the first turn" in the part of my question you quoted I was referring to the first turn as opposed to an extended/ bonus turn and was assuming that the incomplete city with knight and builder was already in play. In essence, I just wanted to know whether the extended turn was granted if the turn that *might* grant it completes the city that the follower is already in. It sounds like it does!

Thanks again,
Dan

Offline obervet

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Re: Traders and Builders
« Reply #10 on: May 17, 2013, 05:36:20 AM »

The annotated rules state - "If the road or city is not completed during the course of the double turn, the builder remains in play. The player may take double turns for as long as the road or city remains incomplete".

IMO It should have been worded "The player may generate an extended turn on each of his turns that the feature containing the builder is incomplete." The extended turn is generated by extending the feature containing the builder. Keep in mind a chain reaction within a turn is not permitted. In other words, only one extended turn may be generated on any given turn.


I'm a little late to this discussion, but I agree, the wording in the current CAR isn't the best. I have adjusted the sentence in the upcoming version of the CAR so that it doesn't sound like a chain reaction anymore.

Offline Carcking

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Re: Traders and Builders
« Reply #11 on: May 17, 2013, 06:17:18 AM »
In general, I think the practice of calling it a "double" turn is inaccurate and misleading. There are certain mechanics that clearly do not make it a true double turn. IMO the more accurate term is "extended". The builder generates an "extended" turn.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2013, 07:06:24 AM by Carcking »

Offline Scott

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Re: Traders and Builders
« Reply #12 on: May 17, 2013, 06:58:26 AM »
I agree with Carcking.

Offline obervet

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Re: Traders and Builders
« Reply #13 on: May 17, 2013, 10:07:28 AM »
In general, I think the practice of calling it a "double" turn is inaccurate and misleading. There are certain mechanics that clearly do not make it a true double turn. IMO the more accurate term is "extended". The builder generates an "extended" turn.

I wholeheartedly agree. Unfortunately, ZMG calls it a double turn, and RGG referred to it as both a double turn and a second turn (which is even worse!), so we've gone with the flow. As I recall, and kettlefish can correct me if I'm wrong, the German term that HiG uses is truly best translated "double turn," so we can't even blame a bad translation.

However, the point of the CAR is to try to produce clarity, so I'm thinking about changing the phrase to "extended turn" in future versions. I'll footnote the change, but I feel like the term "double turn" brings too much confusion when other expansions are in play.

Offline kettlefish

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Re: Traders and Builders
« Reply #14 on: May 17, 2013, 10:14:38 AM »
We German say "Doppelzug" - why is the translation "double turn" not correct?


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