Author Topic: Abbot / Mayor / Wagon and Tower  (Read 4962 times)

Offline obervet

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Abbot / Mayor / Wagon and Tower
« on: March 17, 2015, 06:18:06 AM »
As I commented on in a different thread, I am confused by the ruling that an abbot (the New Carcassonne version) can be placed on a tower. This contradicts the rules of New Carcassonne that the abbot can only be placed on a cloister or a garden. If I understand kettlefish’s explanation (and correct me if I’m wrong), the abbot can be placed on a tower because it is a follower. But the rules for The Tower don’t state that “any follower” or “all followers” can be placed on a tower piece. They only state that “a follower” can be placed there, and they explain what happens if a follower is placed on a tower.

An analogous situation: Somebody asks me who can play in the National Hockey League, and I respond “People can play in the NHL.” This means that wombats and blue whales need not apply, because they are not people. However, it does not mean that all people can play in the NHL. I’m not a very good skater, and my puck-handling skills are terrible (I’m not originally from Minnesota), so I could not play in the NHL, even though I am a person (as far as I know).

What’s my point? Abbots (and mayors, and wagons) shouldn’t go on the tower. Their inherent limitations for placement should be the most important consideration as to where they can or cannot go. The Tower rules explain what happens if a follower is on a tower, but these rules should not supersede the rules of those followers, especially as there is no comment that “all followers” can go on the tower.

If abbots are going to be allowed on towers, we have to accept that the limitation about cloisters and gardens only is a meaningless limitation. Right now, the following features all state that a follower can be placed there (ignoring the magic portal and flier, as followers really only use those features to end up somewhere else):

City
Field / farm
Road
Cloister / monastery / abbey / shrine
City of Carcassonne
Tower
Wheel of Fortune
Castle
Garden (abbot only … maybe)

If we are going to ignore the abbot’s limitations on the tower, then do we ignore those limitations for the Wheel of Fortune, too? And if those are legal, why not a city or road? Those features use the exact same language as the tower in stating that “a follower” can be placed there.

Finally, if we are going to re-configure the rules for the abbot, we’ll have to reconsider the mayor and wagon, too. Essentially we would need a big grid to tell us which feature type each follower (Standard / big / phantom, mayor, wagon, abbot) can go on.

Or we can just follow the rules as they are written. The abbot can only go on a cloister or a garden. The mayor can only go in a city. Period. End of story.

Linkback: http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=1620.0

Offline MrNumbers

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Re: Abbot / Mayor / Wagon and Tower
« Reply #1 on: March 17, 2015, 06:36:20 AM »
+1
That is why I initiated that discussion. I like logic and this "abbot in a tower" thing seems too illogical for me.
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Offline Fritz_Spinne

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Re: Abbot / Mayor / Wagon and Tower
« Reply #2 on: March 17, 2015, 07:06:00 AM »
I do think Abbots can be captured by a tower - but they should not be placed on the tower.

Offline DLloyd09

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Re: Abbot / Mayor / Wagon and Tower
« Reply #3 on: March 17, 2015, 07:21:04 AM »
Great hashing-out obervet. I completely agree with you here.

Offline obervet

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Re: Abbot / Mayor / Wagon and Tower
« Reply #4 on: March 17, 2015, 10:07:59 AM »
I do think Abbots can be captured by a tower - but they should not be placed on the tower.

I agree -- towers can capture followers, and abbots are followers, so they are fair game to be kidnapped.

Offline loki

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Re: Abbot / Mayor / Wagon and Tower
« Reply #5 on: March 22, 2015, 11:45:13 AM »
I completely agree with Obervet based on the existing rules and current published game range.

However with the river (3?) in the big box 5 now sprouting sheep and vineyards it is possible that, with the ruling that Abbots can go on towers, HiG may be tipping their hand and they in fact plan to produce tiles with gardens and tower foundations within the gardens  - the joys of what we may have to look forward to in Carcassonne 2.

Offline aenima

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Re: Abbot / Mayor / Wagon and Tower
« Reply #6 on: May 15, 2015, 12:13:12 PM »
well... I was making some correction to the RCA (the italian CAR) and I was remembering this post...
then I opened the last CAR searching for a fotnote in the paragraph "Deploy a follower to a tower" that explains who can be placed or not... there is nothing, neither something about Mayor, Wagon or I don't know...
I agree with this discussion about the "role" of some "follower", also for the impossibility of a perfect joint on a tower piece!
but I'd like to know where is the rule or the faq that allows Mayor and Wagon to be put on a tower piece...

Offline Carcking

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Re: Abbot / Mayor / Wagon and Tower
« Reply #7 on: May 16, 2015, 05:49:18 AM »
...
Or we can just follow the rules as they are written. The abbot can only go on a cloister or a garden. The mayor can only go in a city. Period. End of story.

Unfortunately, this position does not even solve the question of the Wagon. The rules for the Wagon only tell you where it cannot go (Fields).

Also, I wonder now what is the ruling for the Mayor and the City of Carcassonne. Can he go there if you follow the rules as written?
I just drew the perfect tile for my MonKnighThieFarmer!

Offline MrNumbers

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Re: Abbot / Mayor / Wagon and Tower
« Reply #8 on: May 16, 2015, 11:50:11 AM »
Also, I wonder now what is the ruling for the Mayor and the City of Carcassonne. Can he go there if you follow the rules as written?

Footnote 82:
Quote
The mayor and the wagon can be placed in the appropriate quarter of Carcassonne. The barn cannot be placed in the city of Carcassonne.

Offline obervet

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Re: Abbot / Mayor / Wagon and Tower
« Reply #9 on: May 20, 2015, 10:52:54 AM »
...
Or we can just follow the rules as they are written. The abbot can only go on a cloister or a garden. The mayor can only go in a city. Period. End of story.

Unfortunately, this position does not even solve the question of the Wagon. The rules for the Wagon only tell you where it cannot go (Fields).

Actually, the rules do state that the wagon CAN go on a road, city, or cloister. In the next sentence they state that the wagon CANNOT go on fields. Obviously this leads to the question of "what about everything else that wasn't mentioned?" However (and this is not official), I read the second sentence as a clarification of the first sentence. Thus, to me the first sentence is the primary rule, and I treat the wagon as only being able to go on those 3 types of feature.


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