Author Topic: The Dragon and the Builder  (Read 4696 times)

Offline DLloyd09

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The Dragon and the Builder
« on: January 11, 2015, 07:04:53 PM »
Hey guys,

I have a question that I think I know the answer to, but would love some other folks' takes. I scanned the CAR, but couldn't find the answer. Apologies if I missed it.

Today, during a playthrough of Carc + T&B + P&D, I ( :green-meeple: ) drew a dragon tile and elected to place it as indicated, to extend and complete the small city. This was my first tile of the turn. Though the attached image is taken slightly before I did so, I did move the fairy down one tile to protect my follower (and also score three bonus points, when the movement was over), before moving the dragon.

Then, as the first person to move the dragon, I elected to move it up and away from my builder. But my question is:

Had the builder been removed from the city (such as by the dragon) I just extended and completed before the city was scored, would I still have been entitled to the builder-turn?

My guess is yes. Obviously had that not been a dragon tile, the city would have been scored, the builder and follower returned to my supply, and then I would have proceeded with my builder-turn as normal. But I feel that removing the builder first before scoring changes things a bit and gives me some pause, so I wanted to see what you all thought!

Linkback: http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=1437.0
« Last Edit: January 11, 2015, 07:08:44 PM by DLloyd09 »

Offline jungleboy

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Re: The Dragon and the Builder
« Reply #1 on: January 11, 2015, 11:12:31 PM »
I would say yes too, but that's a guess. I think that the second turn should be confirmed as soon as you place a tile that extends your city/road with a builder. If your builder is removed after tile placement, then you should still get your second turn.

Offline Rosco

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Re: The Dragon and the Builder
« Reply #2 on: January 12, 2015, 12:18:01 AM »
I have to say I disagree. The builder effect is at the end of the turn. Therefore after the Dragon.  In my opinion.
Just lay the damn tile!

Offline jungleboy

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Re: The Dragon and the Builder
« Reply #3 on: January 12, 2015, 12:52:02 AM »
For me, this is the relevant section of the CAR (p.33):

Quote
Whenever the player places a tile that extends the road or city which includes their builder, they may take a double turn.

That seems to support what I said above, i.e. that the second turn is generated with the tile placement, regardless of what happens between that placement and the drawing of the next tile.

Offline danisthirty

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Re: The Dragon and the Builder
« Reply #4 on: January 12, 2015, 02:19:16 AM »
I don't know for sure either way but I could happily agree with either case...

jungleboy's interpretation of the CAR seems correct, but it feels as though a clarification ought to be sought here as Rosco's feelings seem equally justified.

Although this doesn't necessarily reflect the rules and is therefore worthless in terms of helping to answer the question, thinking about the builder, it seems to me that he should still be present in the city after the dragon has been moved in order for the bonus turn to take place. If the knight had been removed by the dragon the city would be worthless to green, and I would be left questioning how the bonus turn was taking place. But that's just me!  ;)

Offline Rosco

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Re: The Dragon and the Builder
« Reply #5 on: January 12, 2015, 03:05:24 AM »
I am with you dan!

Offline DLloyd09

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Re: The Dragon and the Builder
« Reply #6 on: January 12, 2015, 06:46:59 AM »
I would say yes too, but that's a guess. I think that the second turn should be confirmed as soon as you place a tile that extends your city/road with a builder. If your builder is removed after tile placement, then you should still get your second turn.

I have to say I disagree. The builder effect is at the end of the turn. Therefore after the Dragon.  In my opinion.

This is the exact conflict I'm having. Other than a situation where the first tile completes a feature and thus is scored (a situation explicitly covered by the third bullet point, p. 37 of CAR 7.3), it seems strange to award the builder-turn if the builder is no longer on the board.

The relevant line of the CAR, as folks have noted, is: Whenever the player places a tile that extends the road or city which includes their builder, they may take a double turn. So I guess the question really is: At what time do we make the judgment about whether the road or city "includes" the builder? Immediately upon placing the tile or after the "Resolve Move the Wood" phase? Or some other time?

I initially believed  :green-meeple: should still get the builder-turn had the builder been removed, but the more I think about it, and thanks to these comments, my opinion is starting to change. Might this be worth seeking an official clarification?

Offline jungleboy

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Re: The Dragon and the Builder
« Reply #7 on: January 12, 2015, 08:29:08 AM »
I am just playing devil's advocate here; I don't really mind either way.

You asked this question:

At what time do we make the judgment about whether the road or city "includes" the builder? Immediately upon placing the tile or after the "Resolve Move the Wood" phase? Or some other time?

And I see the answer in the CAR that you quoted from the line before:

The relevant line of the CAR, as folks have noted, is: Whenever the player places a tile that extends the road or city which includes their builder, they may take a double turn.

So, when the first tile is placed. So to me it seems pretty clear that this is the rule. Whether or not it should be the rule is another question altogether.

Might this be worth seeking an official clarification?

Probably a good idea :)

Offline Carcking

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Re: The Dragon and the Builder
« Reply #8 on: January 12, 2015, 09:10:31 AM »
The Builder rule is straight forward. When you place a tile that extends a feature containing your Builder, you earn the extended Builder turn. That is the moment of judgment; "When you...". There is nothing that requires the builder to remain for any length of time nor through the scoring phase. What if you didn't complete it and don't score it? Do you then have to determine how long the Builder should stay there before you earn the extended turn?

In your example DL, all the conditions had been met in order for you to earn the extended turn. No reason to make it any more complicated.
I just drew the perfect tile for my MonKnighThieFarmer!

Offline DLloyd09

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Re: The Dragon and the Builder
« Reply #9 on: January 12, 2015, 09:32:43 AM »
What if you didn't complete it and don't score it? Do you then have to determine how long the Builder should stay there before you earn the extended turn?

In your example DL, all the conditions had been met in order for you to earn the extended turn. No reason to make it any more complicated.

No, obviously not. But I would argue that's not really the same thing, because in that case all of the phases of the first part of the turn will be completed (and the builder will still be in the feature) before the builder-turn takes place. My argument is about if something happens to the builder between placement of the tile and scoring (if any). The same situation would occur if (and I don't know why anyone would ever do this), someone placed a princess tile in the city and took their only follower out, thus requiring the builder to come out as well. Should they still get a second turn then, too?

Maybe I am over-complicating it, but I hope you'll forgive that. I've been bouncing around with my opinion on this one all day. If it really is as straightforward as you say, it does seem there is some disagreement about whether the effect of that rule is a good thing.

Offline Carcking

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Re: The Dragon and the Builder
« Reply #10 on: January 12, 2015, 11:46:16 AM »
...The same situation would occur if (and I don't know why anyone would ever do this), someone placed a princess tile in the city and took their only follower out, thus requiring the builder to come out as well. Should they still get a second turn then, too?

Yes, conditions met. Extended turn is earned. There is nothing indicating that the Builder has to stay for any period, only that it be there when the tile is placed which extends the feature.

Someone would do just what you describe if they were in a Cathedral city that could not be closed. It would be worth zero points.

Offline obervet

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Re: The Dragon and the Builder
« Reply #11 on: January 15, 2015, 02:04:25 PM »
Technically speaking, even if the builder is not removed because of the effects of the dragon, it still won't be on the board when the time for the builder turn rolls around. Since the city is complete, scoring will occur, and the follower and builder will be removed. THEN the builder turn will happen. Thus, it is obviously not a requirement for the builder to be on the board at the end of the turn to trigger the builder turn; he only has to be present at the time the feature is extended.


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