Author Topic: A maze of rules  (Read 30501 times)

Offline Scott

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Re: A maze of rules
« Reply #60 on: January 28, 2015, 07:10:43 AM »
While I'm in favor of trying different things, I'm feeling a bit concerned about having another rules document out in the wild. I recommend putting a statement towards the beginning to the effect that, if there are any discrepancies between the SAR and the CAR, the CAR takes precedence.

Offline Paul

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Re: A maze of rules
« Reply #61 on: January 28, 2015, 07:24:29 AM »
While I'm in favor of trying different things, I'm feeling a bit concerned about having another rules document out in the wild. I recommend putting a statement towards the beginning to the effect that, if there are any discrepancies between the SAR and the CAR, the CAR takes precedence.

Agreed. Before posting it, make sure to test things first, see if it's viable.
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Offline Carcking

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Re: A maze of rules
« Reply #62 on: January 28, 2015, 07:34:24 AM »
Maybe I've lost the original notion, but why are we talking about (and considering?) the creation of a new rules document?
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Offline jungleboy

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Re: A maze of rules
« Reply #63 on: January 28, 2015, 08:03:12 AM »
Maybe I've lost the original notion, but why are we talking about (and considering?) the creation of a new rules document?

I've been waiting for someone to say this just to be sure that I wasn't the only one confused by the existence of this thread.

Personally, I think the CAR is perfectly fine the way it is.

Offline DLloyd09

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Re: A maze of rules
« Reply #64 on: January 28, 2015, 03:44:10 PM »
Maybe I've lost the original notion, but why are we talking about (and considering?) the creation of a new rules document?

I've been waiting for someone to say this just to be sure that I wasn't the only one confused by the existence of this thread.

Personally, I think the CAR is perfectly fine the way it is.
I agree with this as well. Concern about players not knowing which expansion certain elements belong to is covered by the reference on pages 5-6 of the CAR.

The one thing I would like to see is some sort of online version of the CAR on something like a wiki. I think that might be nice and would also take care of the other major concern about easy accessibility on tablets. They aren't too intensive to set up, and if a CC admin were able to set up a wiki tied to the site, I would be happy to spearhead the project of creating an online version there. Or I could try to set up an offsite wiki that would be linked to from here. But I'll wait and see what other folks think before going crazy on that.  :)

Online Whaleyland

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Re: A maze of rules
« Reply #65 on: January 28, 2015, 04:57:25 PM »
I love wikis and have been editing Wikipedia, Wookiepedia, the Lord of the Rings wiki, and others for years. That being said, I'd argue against an open-access wiki site and strongly suggest an in-house wiki that can only be edited by administrators. This level of access doesn't seem to be allowed on servers like Wikia, which runs both of the fan sites above. I think the idea of a wiki is a good one, though, and it could easily be expanded to include things like fan expansions, strategy, and general game information. It just can't be open to the public for editing. Perhaps someone could find out what the comically restricted http://www.conservapedia.com/Main_Page uses. Is it ironic that a "conservative" site locks its user access? I think yes.

 :(y) :(y) :(y)

Also, I haven't had any problem accessing and using the CAR from my iPad 2. The size is right and everything feels about right. Turning it into a different type of document designed specifically for an iPad or other tablet would require a lot more work because of all the images. I know, because I have been writing a 300+ history ebook for the past year and I can't distribute it on the App Store or Amazon because it doesn't lend itself to their store formats. If someone wants to try converting it, I'd suggest get the iBooks Author app (it's free!) and tinker with that some. Otherwise, I think a .pdf is the best way to go forward, though the page dimensions could be reduced in size for better use on smaller screens.

Offline DLloyd09

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Re: A maze of rules
« Reply #66 on: January 28, 2015, 06:02:11 PM »
I love wikis and have been editing Wikipedia, Wookiepedia, the Lord of the Rings wiki, and others for years. That being said, I'd argue against an open-access wiki site and strongly suggest an in-house wiki that can only be edited by administrators. This level of access doesn't seem to be allowed on servers like Wikia, which runs both of the fan sites above. I think the idea of a wiki is a good one, though, and it could easily be expanded to include things like fan expansions, strategy, and general game information. It just can't be open to the public for editing.

:(y) :(y) :(y)

Totally agree on this, and should have made that clear. I think it should be a restricted wiki for sure; open only to registered users or a subset thereof for editing and open to the public for viewing. MediaWiki has a good slate of access controls.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2015, 06:04:47 PM by DLloyd09 »

Offline Scott

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Re: A maze of rules
« Reply #67 on: January 28, 2015, 06:27:31 PM »
I'm not seeing what advantage the wiki offers other than being a web site rather than a PDF file. The CAR works fine in iBooks, Adobe Reader, or whatever app you want to use for PDF files. The analogy of having a hammer and everything looking like a nail is coming to my mind right now. I'm going to tell you guys the same thing I tell my co-workers: let's discuss the problems and determine the correct solution from that.

Online Whaleyland

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    • Derek R. Whaley | Historian & Writer
Re: A maze of rules
« Reply #68 on: January 28, 2015, 06:35:51 PM »
One advantage of a wiki I can think of right off the top of my head is that it will increase visibility dramatically. Most wikis get indexed by Google and each individual page gets its own indexed entry, so if somebody looks up "Inns & Cathedrals" they would get Board Game Geek, a few stores, and potentially our wiki. Right now, I don't see that being the case. Having the guide spread out in such a manner will provide an extremely easy to search database that is quick to update, doesn't require intense formatting, and extremely accessible. I think these are all positives for a Carcassonne wiki. Granted, I tried making one for Catan years ago and it is still languishing, but part of the reason for that is that I lost heart in its design. Initially, the wiki needs to have dedicated people willing to dissect the CAR and format it consistently throughout the week in an extremely small period of time.

Offline DLloyd09

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Re: A maze of rules
« Reply #69 on: January 28, 2015, 07:54:08 PM »
+1 to whaleyland's comments. From a convenience perspective, a wiki makes it really easy to jump around to various sections without having to scroll through or jumping back to the table of contents to find the page you need and then jumping forward again. If the internal links are set up well, I think that a wiki could be very easy for new and veteran players to navigate. And at 300+ pages, I think the major drawback of the CAR is indeed that it is very cumbersome.

Another huge advantage? The CAR can be updated constantly as we learn of new clarifications and make minor changes to the text, without the need to wait for enough content to bulk up for a major release. I've seen a few posts from obervet recently where he's remarked on changing the language of a sentence or adding a new clarification in the next version of the CAR. Why wait for S-CAR 7.4? Post it now on the wiki, and then have the regular PDF releases with more bulk updates for the folks who prefer a "hard copy".

I don't think this should be structured as an either/or thing, and I sort of feel from your comments Scott that that's how you might be interpreting it? I don't at all think a wiki should replace the PDF version of the CAR, but rather act as a companion document more tailored to people who prefer that style of navigation. For example, if I was playing at a friend's house and needed a rules clarification, I'd have a much happier and easier time navigating through a wiki than trying to scroll through a 300+ page document on my tiny cell phone.

Offline Scott

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Re: A maze of rules
« Reply #70 on: January 28, 2015, 08:23:38 PM »
The thought hadn't really crossed my mind that this was an either/or thing. I see it as a companion, and because of that we need to think through how the process of keeping the two of them synchronized is going to work. What I'm thinking right now, based on your latest comments, is that the wiki would probably need to become the authoritative "document", as it would be kept up-to-date constantly. The PDF releases would continue to occur on a regular cycle, which could then be printed and inserted into a binder, or saved to your tablet for situations where you don't have Internet access.

As such, I think it would be best to pull together a small group of 2-4 people to initially load up the wiki, get some people to proofread and offer feedback, and then Obervet would become solely in charge of editing, so that he can keep track of what needs to be changed in the next PDF release. I don't want to make his life difficult by having multiple people editing the wiki. If there was a way to have separate permissions for the Talk pages, that might be helpful for keeping track of questions and answers with the publisher.

Offline kettlefish

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Re: A maze of rules
« Reply #71 on: January 28, 2015, 09:58:21 PM »
I don't help here with the Wiki. I have enough work to do with the CAR and the projects from HiG.

The CAR is our Carcassonne "bible". Even HiG accepted this document. For the document of the CAR we are allowed to use the original graphics of landscape tiles.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2015, 10:01:31 PM by kettlefish »

Online Whaleyland

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    • Derek R. Whaley | Historian & Writer
Re: A maze of rules
« Reply #72 on: January 28, 2015, 11:20:03 PM »
That is a good point, kettlefish. The wiki may not at least initially be able to use the images from the printed rules. Perhaps that's not a bad thing, though. In-house graphics could end up being better in the long run. I've never personally been impressed with some of the Carcassonne rules graphics. Combined with the captions, they are not always easy to understand.

Offline DLloyd09

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Re: A maze of rules
« Reply #73 on: January 29, 2015, 08:08:12 AM »
What I'm thinking right now, based on your latest comments, is that the wiki would probably need to become the authoritative "document", as it would be kept up-to-date constantly. The PDF releases would continue to occur on a regular cycle, which could then be printed and inserted into a binder, or saved to your tablet for situations where you don't have Internet access.

As such, I think it would be best to pull together a small group of 2-4 people to initially load up the wiki, get some people to proofread and offer feedback, and then Obervet would become solely in charge of editing, so that he can keep track of what needs to be changed in the next PDF release. I don't want to make his life difficult by having multiple people editing the wiki. If there was a way to have separate permissions for the Talk pages, that might be helpful for keeping track of questions and answers with the publisher.

I suppose that is my train of thought, yes. I know I'd be more than happy to help with a migration to the wiki. As for the updating, I'd certainly want to get obervet's opinion on all of this before asking him to take on any additional work. I'm sure it's plenty of work just managing the CAR as it is. With respect to permissions, I think all registered users should have the edit permission (so they can make talk edits), but the main article pages should be protected, so that only the designated individuals can edit them. I know that MediaWiki allows for permissions like that.

That is a good point, kettlefish. The wiki may not at least initially be able to use the images from the printed rules. Perhaps that's not a bad thing, though. In-house graphics could end up being better in the long run. I've never personally been impressed with some of the Carcassonne rules graphics. Combined with the captions, they are not always easy to understand.

While I think there's a lot of value in the originals, I think updated images prepared in-house would be excellent, if we don't get permission to use them. I'd of course recommend water-marking any in-house images, but that's many steps down a still-hypothetical road.

Offline obervet

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Re: A maze of rules
« Reply #74 on: January 29, 2015, 08:25:13 AM »
Remember that the copyright for the artwork on all of the tiles still belongs to HiG. Thus, even if we make our own example pictures, ultimately the publisher has to be on board with it.

Likewise for publication of the rules. They own the copyright to the rules text, so we can't go copy-pasting any of that onto a website/wiki/blog without the okay of HiG.


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