Poll

How do you primarily use The Inns?

I use them to double my roads' values.
23 (95.8%)
I use them to sabotage other people's roads.
0 (0%)
I use them as a throw-away tile.
1 (4.2%)
I ignore The Inns rules when playing.
0 (0%)
I don't own Inns & Cathedrals (Expansion #1).
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 23

Voting closed: September 18, 2014, 09:03:16 PM

Author Topic: The Inns – Element of the Week #1  (Read 8341 times)

Offline whaleyland

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The Inns – Element of the Week #1
« on: September 11, 2014, 09:03:16 PM »
ELEMENT OF THE WEEK: THE INNS

As an attempt to keep this forum someone on topic, each week a specific expansion element is chosen from among the various expansions that have released over the years. This is an opportunity for you, Carcassonne's biggest English-language fans, to discuss techniques and problems you have encountered over the years regarding specific expansion elements. All forms of critique – from the most positive to the most resolutely negative – are encouraged.

This week's element is THE INNS from Inns & Cathedrals (Expansion #1). A Road with an Inn modifier beside it is worth twice the number of points when that Road is finally scored. But if the Road is incomplete by Final Scoring, the Road scores 0 points. Discuss your relationship with The Inns and your strategies for using this simple victory point modifier.

Next Week's Topic: The River

Linkback: http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=1050.0
« Last Edit: October 31, 2014, 03:06:47 AM by whaleyland »

Gerry

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Re: Element of the Week: The Inns
« Reply #1 on: September 11, 2014, 09:52:13 PM »
I like the Inns as they build naturally upon the basic fundamentals of the game.  The add variety without disrupting the flow of the game.  They work equally well for competitive play where people are trying to win and social play where people just want to spend a pleasant evening having fun by scoring points.

Offline Rosco

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Re: Element of the Week: The Inns
« Reply #2 on: September 11, 2014, 10:37:32 PM »
I really like the inns. I understand the story behind doubling the points when a road contains an inn but why is it worth nothing if not complete?  Would it not make more sense if it's worth nothing if it doesn't connect to another feature at both ends? I.e. a traveler travelling along the road from A to B has somewhere to stay but if there is no A and B, no-one would be travelling there.
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Offline MrNumbers

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Re: Element of the Week: The Inns
« Reply #3 on: September 11, 2014, 10:51:17 PM »
The advantages of Inns are quite obvious and were told above.
I want to tell about one little problem with Inns: there are inns not only in "Inns and Cathedrals" themselves, but also in another expansions (River II; Bridges, Castles and Bazaars), and we always argue: to use on not to use those inns, if we don't include "Inns and Cathedrals" in our game. I prefer strict game, exactly following the rules and usually don't allow to use inns in these cases (my opinion is weighty in my group), but sometimes, in "relaxing" games we still use them as inns.
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Offline Paul

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Re: Element of the Week: The Inns
« Reply #4 on: September 11, 2014, 11:25:52 PM »
This is inn-sane!  ^-^

I like the inns. Roads usually go unnoticed because of the low score and long completion time compared to cities. In a base game at least.
  With the inns you can easily miss someone working on a road and score more points than your 3-tiled city.

Those that know the game well will also have no trouble spotting a good score giver feature and will try to join in on the road and most likely to try to have it for themselves.

As to why it scores zero during final scoring, I think it's all good. It may seem harsh but I never felt it to be devastating when counting incomplete features.
  A good feature should have both good profit as well as some sort of failed attempt outcome, though it should not be negative like losing points.

Z-man version of Count, King and Robber there is a rule explanation of River II inn tile where it says that this is an inn expansion feature.
  I could not find anything on Bridges, Castles and Bazaar but we've always used the inns there as well.

 :meeple:
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Offline Tacita

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Re: Element of the Week: The Inns
« Reply #5 on: September 12, 2014, 12:39:24 AM »
It never made sense to me that roads had as much worth finished as unfinished. Inns changed that in a good way.
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Offline whaleyland

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Re: Element of the Week: The Inns
« Reply #6 on: September 12, 2014, 12:44:15 AM »
I really like the inns. I understand the story behind doubling the points when a road contains an inn but why is it worth nothing if not complete?  Would it not make more sense if it's worth nothing if it doesn't connect to another feature at both ends? I.e. a traveler travelling along the road from A to B has somewhere to stay but if there is no A and B, no-one would be travelling there.
I admit that having points at the end would make for a better thematic purpose for The Inns, but I think the rules would begin to get confusing and I don't even want to think about the problems that would crop up regarding what such a feature would include. I assume that roads ending in trees, farms, and villages wouldn't count since those are all unacknowledged features. The ends would have to be Cities, Cloisters, Shrines, Bazaars, Festivals (Catapult), etc. That could definitely become confusing, though very interesting. I think the branched roads included in other expansions could also cause problems with that.

I don't see a problem with the 0-point scoring, though. As Yellow said, at least it's not negative. That's where things start getting confusing and annoying. The trade off is worth it.

Regarding Inns appearing in other expansions, we actually take that to mean that the expansions are meant to be played together, so we mix them...at least if we remember to. Either way, since the Inn is such a small feature, we play with it regardless. It rarely makes or breaks the game.

It never made sense to me that roads had as much worth finished as unfinished. Inns changed that in a good way.
Agreed. Everything else has some sort of penalty, why not roads? Inns definitely fix the problem.

Offline danisthirty

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Re: Element of the Week: The Inns
« Reply #7 on: September 12, 2014, 01:06:50 AM »
I would have voted for the top two options as these are both equally valid in my games. Inns are great because they add to the game and change it subtly without causing too much disruption or complicating things.

A strategy I often use when Inns & Cathedrals is included is to start longish roads that don't seem too threatening to my opponent. Then I put an inn on them (all being well) and try to close them off as quickly as possible after that.

It never made sense to me that roads had as much worth finished as unfinished. Inns changed that in a good way.
Agreed. Everything else has some sort of penalty, why not roads? Inns definitely fix the problem.

What about cloisters? They're worth the same points before and after the last tile goes down.
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Offline whaleyland

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Re: Element of the Week: The Inns
« Reply #8 on: September 12, 2014, 01:39:45 AM »
What about cloisters? They're worth the same points before and after the last tile goes down.
Not technically. At the end of the game, they are worth one point per tile around it (plus itself), but a completely Cloister is worth 9 points. Period. But yes, the point loss is minimal. But the investment doesn't pay off if you get a Monk trapped on a Cloister for half a game or more. That's the other part of the trade off.

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Re: Element of the Week: The Inns
« Reply #9 on: September 12, 2014, 07:29:17 AM »
What about cloisters? They're worth the same points before and after the last tile goes down.
Not technically. At the end of the game, they are worth one point per tile around it (plus itself), but a completely Cloister is worth 9 points. Period. But yes, the point loss is minimal. But the investment doesn't pay off if you get a Monk trapped on a Cloister for half a game or more. That's the other part of the trade off.

Seems to me we need some feature that adds points to cloister so they score more points when the are completed.  How about adding something like a vineyard that gives 3 extra points when the priory is completed but none when the priory is incomplete. 

 ???  --  sheepish expression

Offline Paul

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Re: Element of the Week: The Inns
« Reply #10 on: September 12, 2014, 08:30:45 AM »
What about cloisters? They're worth the same points before and after the last tile goes down.
Not technically. At the end of the game, they are worth one point per tile around it (plus itself), but a completely Cloister is worth 9 points. Period. But yes, the point loss is minimal. But the investment doesn't pay off if you get a Monk trapped on a Cloister for half a game or more. That's the other part of the trade off.

Seems to me we need some feature that adds points to cloister so they score more points when the are completed.  How about adding something like a vineyard that gives 3 extra points when the priory is completed but none when the priory is incomplete. 

 ???  --  sheepish expression

Considering how many cloisters there are in the game, especially with the expansions, there should be an option to remove a follower from a cloister and score as it would endgame.

1. Place a tile
2. Instead of placing a follower, remove a follower from a cloister placed in previous round
3. Score as it would endgame (tile itself and it's adjacent ones)

This will give the player the option to reuse these followers again much earlier if running out of them in stack, which I think is far better than adjusting the scoring.

Gerry

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Re: Element of the Week: The Inns
« Reply #11 on: September 12, 2014, 08:54:18 AM »

Seems to me we need some feature that adds points to cloister so they score more points when the are completed.  How about adding something like a vineyard that gives 3 extra points when the priory is completed but none (i.e. no extra points) when the priory is incomplete. 



It just occurred to me that having a cloister score zero points in total if incomplete with a vineyard in Hills and Sheep (as opposed to not getting the 3 point bonus) would have been more consistent with the scoring in Inns and Cathedrals.

Offline danisthirty

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Re: Element of the Week: The Inns
« Reply #12 on: September 12, 2014, 09:26:23 AM »
This will give the player the option to reuse these followers again much earlier if running out of them in stack, which I think is far better than adjusting the scoring.

You're too soft!  :)

I think there are already plenty of ways to get followers back (Dragon, Tower, Plague, Festival, Crop Circles etc) albeit without scoring any points in the process. If you're abandoning a feature you previously decided to claim though, I don't think you deserve any points.

An important part of playing Carcassonne is managing your meeples and making careful decisions as to what you're going to claim. I suppose you could have a house-rule that allows you to take a monk back but I kind of like that if you're running low on meeples you make completing that cloister your priority (and usually everyone else tries to stop you)...

Offline Paul

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Re: Element of the Week: The Inns
« Reply #13 on: September 12, 2014, 09:40:05 AM »
This will give the player the option to reuse these followers again much earlier if running out of them in stack, which I think is far better than adjusting the scoring.

You're too soft!  :)

I think there are already plenty of ways to get followers back (Dragon, Tower, Plague, Festival, Crop Circles etc) albeit without scoring any points in the process. If you're abandoning a feature you previously decided to claim though, I don't think you deserve any points.

An important part of playing Carcassonne is managing your meeples and making careful decisions as to what you're going to claim. I suppose you could have a house-rule that allows you to take a monk back but I kind of like that if you're running low on meeples you make completing that cloister your priority (and usually everyone else tries to stop you)...

Lol! I am going to try this next time we play, just for fun. Return a follower of mine using the dragon.

Release the dragons!

(Something my friends shout at me when we play football. They know I'm a Fantasy fan.)

Offline Rosco

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Re: Element of the Week: The Inns
« Reply #14 on: September 12, 2014, 01:39:38 PM »
I think a few people missed my point earlier. I am not saying that it is bad that it is worth nothing end game if not complete, I am saying ' what's the story? ' why is it worth nothing?
With most features I like to think about the story behind it. Like a princess removing a knight is because she seduces him and no longer wants him to fight so he cannot be the knight of that city. And things like that.


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