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Messages - corinthiens13

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Are you open to discussing via PM or prefer the open forum?

PM is ok  ;)

Ok, so, to summarize :
  • For simple scorings, without robbers: We follow the rule's scoring order, but it has no influence, so we might as well not follow the scoring order
  • For simple scoring with robbers, we follow the scoring order
  • For complex scoring, we do not follow the scoring order but let the player chose

News and Events / Re: Announcement from Hans Im Gluck
« on: January 21, 2021, 12:12:54 PM »
HiG is very aware of people's financial burdens and the value for money that their games provide.

And that's why they don't risk and do the same as always. I understand the business mentality but we are talking about 20 years of carcassonne. Honestly with what is known about the edition:
Sincerely, do you think it's something that has completely surprised you? or is it not familiar to the above edited?
I understand that there are people who like to buy the same or very similar with little margin of variation over and over, but understand that there are people who expect something truly amazing when it comes to such important dates. If you think that everyone loves this new edition except me, I think you haven't read other comments...
Many people aren't going to buy it directly. In my case, I probably bought it for what these 20 years mean, rather than for the edition itself.

Too bad they didn't release golden tiles and sell them for free with a 20 euros order  ;D

Honestly, for me, having every tiles with a much more detailed design, easter eggs, a lot of small added details (like the ribbons on the walls, different scenes inside the tiles...etc), but still CII compatible is something truly amazing! And an awesome work!

Some may not like it, but that's not a reason for spending time to complain... After all, if we all complained about everything we do not like in this world, we'd never stop!
Enjoy and keep the fun in the things where we find it, and leave the rest, that makes a much happier life  ;)  :yellow-meeple:

And thanks HiG for your work and this amazing game that provided a lot of enjoyable family and friends time, congratulations for keeping the good work so long! (well, apart from cutting buildings at the tile's edges  ;D )

News and Events / Re: Announcement from Hans Im Gluck
« on: January 21, 2021, 08:40:05 AM »
20 years of carcassonne wasted in an edition that surely the box is very beautiful but the interior is not remarkable ... They have also released the festival 20 hahaha Everything completely predictable. Stickers for meeples again?
I still have some hope for the rest of the 20th anniversary stuff ... Will I have to wait for a really special 100th anniversary limited edition? Or will it remain the same with festival 100?

I have the impression that for some it smacks of disappointment

Admittedly I've only been playing Carcassonne since July 2012, but compared to most other special releases I've seen over that time I'd say that this one is actually quite remarkable if the contents list we've seen so far are as described. It would be unremarkable if it was just a special edition of the basic game with no additional content, or maybe a re-release of something we already knew about.

It might not meet some of the expectations that some people had, but most of those were never going to happen for various reasons that you can find if you explore back through some of the previous threads we've had here whenever anything new is released. With this in mind, I'm quite surprised that it includes a new version of the River ("River 4" or "River 1c"?) with extra tiles AND a new mini expansion. The special meeples are a bit of a novelty, maybe not worth much to those who are looking specifically for new content but a nice touch nonetheless. And the special finish on the tiles and hidden easter eggs? Hmm. I don't know. But I'm intrigued!

To say that it's 20 years of Carcassonne wasted is quite a big thing, and potentially quite hurtful to the people who have worked on bringing this new box to market. We all had/ have different expectations; just because yours weren't met doesn't mean it wasn't a worthwhile venture or something that the majority of fans might enjoy owning.

And we may like it or not, but apparently, the tiles have a really nice look with a lot of details !  :yellow-meeple:

News and Events / Re: Announcement from Hans Im Gluck
« on: January 21, 2021, 05:20:49 AM »
You were checking the same thing as me... Chopped buildings on the edges seems a trend now...

That's a shame...

But at least, this edition may be interesting and added to my wishlist, as it has new things:
  • 5 brand new river tiles.
  • anniversary-mini-expansion (consisting of 15 never-before-seen tiles)
  • Every tiles adorned with UV-print and detailed easter-eggs

Also meeple costumes and new rulebook, but I'm not interested in that...

And the fact that "all contents are completely compatible with the existing and future world of Carcassonne" tends to think they're not going to release CIII soon !  :D

News and Events / Re: Announcement from Hans Im Gluck
« on: January 21, 2021, 05:07:26 AM »
As I did already say here:

Wow, the new tiles are looking really good, but... AGAIN they did cut buildings at the edge of city tiles?  >:(

Those tiles looks really nice, but how did they forget how to make tiles without cutting the design?  :o

This quote is not just an my opinion. It is an official rule, from the printed rules.

I know, and there is similar rules for other expansions too, not only for the ringmaster.

Meepledrone's suggestion is to decouple evaluations (and to do them in a specific sequence following the rules) and scorings (and to do them in any order chosed by the players).
I have no opinion about wether this may be correct or not. I did only suggest scoring during turn sequence for if this way of scoring is applied.

Now I let the experts decide about the rules  ;)

"If the feature with your ringmaster becomes completed, first score points for the completed feature.

Then, for each Circus and Acrobat tile that your ringmaster is on or adjacent to, score 2 points."

Scoring During Turn Sequence is fine how it is.

If I understand correctly, in step 4, if I have a fairy attached to red ringmaster on a road, and blue having other features: the fairy could be scored, then one of blue's features, then red's road, then one of blue's feature, and then the ringmaster bonus? (here, there's no scoring order rule at all)

Or if you score red ringmaster's fairy, then red's road and ringmaster bonus still have to be scored one after another, before scoring something else ?

Any order can be applied. [...]
So any order can be applied. We follow some conventions to simplify the scoring process and we implicitly use a loop to represent the scoring sequence since we can only do one thing at a time. And iterating through the features to be scored is practical approach, but falls short to address some of the dependencies.

Seems like we all have a different opinion about wether we may score only in a specific sequence or in any order...

My suggestion of changing the scoring during turn sequence was IF we agree on the fact that we may score in any order, and work with a snapshot of the situation at the beginning of step 3 to evaluate points.
But IF we have to score in a specific sequence (meaning we restrict the player's option with robbers, a player can not decide to score a feature before its watchtower for example), then the scoring during turn sequence is perfect as it is, as it tends to interpret the rules that way.

If we are talking about the Scoring During Turn Sequence page, the scoring for each feature is fully unwound will all its bonuses.

On the other hand, you have Scoring During the Game, that specifies just the scoring per feature and bonuses are given as separate entries, except Markets of Leipzig for historical reasons, although they can also be moved to a separate entry.

Is the latter closer to what you have in mind although no bonuses are listed?

I do mostly use the scoring during turn sequence since it is really useful to have everything sorted by turn sequence.

Indeed, the scoring during the game has a way of listing items that is closer to what I meant and could be integrated to the scoring during turn sequence (only for Step 3B: Resolve Completed Features), by separating step 3b (still in scoring during turn sequence page) in two subsections:
  • Bonus scoring with a list of every bonus scoring (toll, fairy, ringmaster, watchtower...etc), listed without dependency to a feature (it'd already serve as a reminder as we'd have to go through it in order to reach the feature list)
  • Feature scoring with a list of every feature scoring (eventually, to serve as a reminder, with a single line at the beginning of each feature saying "don't forget to score bonuses, separately from the feature scoring: watchtowers, fairy, ringmaster bonus..." (listing here, without any details, the bonuses that may apply to the specific feature))

That would avoid us to thing "if this bonus is listed under the road scoring (prolog or epilog), it means that it has to be scored directly before/after the road (same with cities, monasteries...). And so prolog and epilog are removed.
And to be even more clear, a phrase at the beginning of step 3b could state "Every feature and bonuses listed below are scored in any order, choosed by the players, but according to the situation at the beginning of step 3b".

Something similar happens to the different components of the feature scoring... Inns/cathedrals is not commutative after the game and the Witch is never commutative. So everything is arranged to be consistent both during the game and after the game:
1. Basic points and modifiers affecting them (inns/catedrals last - so at the end of the game their x0 works perfectly)
2. Mage/Witch (because the Witch is always applied after inns and cathedrals)
3. Feature-related bonuses (because we know for certain that little buildings are applied at the end and then other bonuses affecting the final scoring of the feature like German castles should follow suit, as hinted in the existing clarifications).
The feature scoring is perfect and clear as it is  ;)

I just kept it that way as a reminder that the rules indicate the evaluation/scoring should happen before the feature itself by default. You can see I always list the figure-related bonus in the epilog in the same order for maintainability reasons. The order is not actually specified.
The bonuses are in separate blocks for the prolog and the epilog.
The points assigned to the road itself are marked with a yellow block on the right (core feature scoring = points from tiles), so castles, the teacher and robbers, see these points plus the feature-related bonuses as one scoring event. The other bonuses represent one scoring event each.
I know there is a lot much info encoded there.
I included the bonuses applicable to each feature so it may alse serve as a checklist. If you mix them all, then you may skip one by accident. I know it is too verbose but IMHO it serves a purpose.

It's good that it serves as a checklist, but as you say, there's a lot of info there. That's good for a Carcassonne master, but a random player, even an expert, would probably think (like I did) that if the bonuses are listed along with the feature, in a prologue and an epilogue, that means they have to be scored in this scoring order. After all, that's what prologue and epilogue means, it comes before, and after, so it implies an order, not a liberty of choice.

Maybe a way to make it easy to understand but keep the reminders would be to list :
  • every bonus scoring (toll, fairy, ringmaster, watchtower...etc), listed without dependency to a feature (it'd already serve as a reminder as we'd have to go through it in order to reach the feature list)
  • every feature scoring, with a single line at the beginning of every feature saying "don't forget to score bonuses, separately from the feature scoring: watchtowers, fairy, ringmaster bonus...(listing here, without any details, the bonuses that may apply to the specific feature"

What do you think?

Of course, that'd be a lot of work...  :-[

Anything Else / Re: Request for update of Profile Carcassonne games
« on: January 20, 2021, 01:25:37 PM »
Alright alright alright. Enough bullying! :P

I've been through your list and added all the new C2 expansions and the maps. I haven't added the spin-offs or spin-off expansions yet, but please test that you're happy with the new fields I have added, and that you can use them, and let me know if you run into any difficulties.

Thanks! :(y)

That's great, thanks !  :D

Maybe a line separating old art, new art, spinoffs and maps would make the list more pleasant to read and go through  ;)

Also remember that tolls are not turned over (if required) until the scoring is completed. There are no side effects caused by the order of scoring of the roads involved. The same toll is applied to any road involved.

You would turn over the tollhouse token if at least one of the roads scored had a group of travellers.

Here you are an excerpt of the rules when scoring roads with groups of travellers:

Toll changes with travellers

If you have scored at least one group of travellers with your tollhouse, you change its value. The small toll (1) becomes the large toll (2) or vice versa.

You change your toll only at the end of your turn. If you score more than one road with one toll within the same turn, its value is the same for all the roads.

I knew it, don't know why I forgot that !

And so, if we're working with a snapshot, removing meeples only after evaluating all of the points, the separation between Bonus scoring (prolog), Bonus scoring (epilog) and feature scoring can be removed, as they may be scored in any order (there's no prolog and epilog, only feature scoring and bonus scoring)?

In the "scoring during turn sequence", we could even list the bonus scoring separately from the feature scoring, to make it clear that they do not have to be scored together (currently, if we look at road scoring for example, toll bonus and watchtower bonus are listed inside the road scoring, this tends to think that they HAVE to be scored along with the road).

Instead, we could have in Step 3B: Resolve Completed Features:
  • A list of every bonus scoring (toll, fairy, ringmaster, watchtower...etc), listed without dependency to a feature
  • A list of every feature scoring (without the bonus listed above)
This would make it clear that there's no predetermined order of scoring, and it'd also make the list smaller, as the bonuses'd be listed only once, instead of multiple times with every kind of feature...

What about a yellow toll connected to two roads simultaneously completed, one with travelers, occupied by blue, one with a farm, occupied by blue too.
  • Blue choses the scoring order for the two roads for his meeples
  • Yellow choses the scoring order of the two roads for his toll, no matter the order blue choosed

Ok, thanks for your explanation. I thought the scoring order in WICA was more official  ;)

Simplifying it and using a snapshot instead of those loops would probably make it easier to understand and apply in a game.

Edit:And it'd avoid false scoring for watchtowers since no meeples'd be removed while evaluating the points...

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