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Carc Central Community => Official Rules => Topic started by: asred37 on June 16, 2014, 03:35:22 PM

Title: Expansion#6 The Count, The King and The Robber
Post by: asred37 on June 16, 2014, 03:35:22 PM
Ok people i just bought this expansion last week. I haven't for the life of everything holy, been able to understand how to play the count of Carcassonne part. Literally i have searched for a week straight with no success. Can someone please explain how this expansion works!!!  I understand that there are 4 sections in the city which coordinate with roads, cites and so on. I understand you can put someone in the city if you help someone get points and receive none on that turn. a also understand that the count stops people from moving out of carcassonne. I dont understand when the count is moved  where and why you are taking people of of the city .  IM SO CONFUSED!!
Title: Re: Expansion#6 The Count, The King and The Robber
Post by: asparagus on June 16, 2014, 03:56:12 PM
You are correct in everything you have understood so far. I would forget about the count for a second. The basic idea is as follows:

1.) You get followers into the city (as you described).
2.) You move followers from the city to a feature just before it is scored. That way you hope to share in its points or even get  its points all to yourself.

So first obviously there are rules that clarify what order people move from the city to the scored feature.
A more serious twist is that when you place a follower in the City (step 1), you have to decide what sort of feature the follower will end up in. So you have the mapping:
blacksmith -> road
Cathedral -> monastery
castle -> city
market -> farm

The final serious twist is that you can block one of those four mappings. You get the chance to block one mapping as you place your follower in the City of Carcassonne, It is this blocking that the Count marks.

I hope that helps.

 
Title: Re: Expansion#6 The Count, The King and The Robber
Post by: asred37 on June 16, 2014, 04:12:46 PM
Ok that helps a lot. so when do you move your follower out of carcassonne?
Title: Re: Expansion#6 The Count, The King and The Robber
Post by: asparagus on June 16, 2014, 04:16:20 PM
Ok that helps a lot. so when do you move your follower out of carcassonne?

Supposing you put your follower in the Castle, made sure the Count was not in the Castle, and supposing noone has moved the Count back to the Castle, you wait until you see a nice big juicy city that you would like a share of and you move your follower there after the city has been completed but before it has been scored.
Title: Re: Expansion#6 The Count, The King and The Robber
Post by: asred37 on June 16, 2014, 04:27:07 PM
What really? so you can just do it whenever someone is about to score points for something?
Title: Re: Expansion#6 The Count, The King and The Robber
Post by: asparagus on June 16, 2014, 04:31:53 PM
What really? so you can just do it whenever someone is about to score points for something?

Well a qualified yes. There are two restrictions meaning you have to predict ahead of time what is valuable and that other people get a chance to block you.

1.) You need to have put your follower in the correct place to get the best scores.
2.) Other people have a chance to block you using the Count.
3,) Other people also have a chance to counteract by having their own followers in the City of Carcassonne.
Title: Expansion#6 The Count, The King and The Robber
Post by: asred37 on June 16, 2014, 05:53:42 PM
Ok people i just bought this expansion last week. I haven't for the life of everything holy, been able to understand how to play the count of Carcassonne part. Literally i have searched for a week straight with no success. Can someone please explain how this expansion works!!!  I understand that there are 4 sections in the city which coordinate with roads, cites and so on. I understand you can put someone in the city if you help someone get points and receive none on that turn. a also understand that the count stops people from moving out of carcassonne. I dont understand when the count is moved  where and why you are taking people of of the city .  IM SO CONFUSED!!
Title: Re: Expansion#6 The Count, The King and The Robber
Post by: whaleyland on June 16, 2014, 08:49:12 PM
The Count is my least favorite expansion, but some people love it. It lets you move into features that are being scored, possibly by other players. When a feature is completed, but before it is scored, players, in clockwise order, may place any/all Followers from that feature's quadrant (Castle for City tiles, Cathedral for Cloisters, etc.) onto the just-completed feature. The majority of Followers is only determined after everyone has moved anything they want from the City. Followers in the City after final scoring score no points.

The Count keeps Followers locked in a specific quadrant until it moves away and he also locks players out of placing new Followers into that quadrant. The Count is moved optionally when a player places a Follower into the City.

I hope that helps some.
Title: Re: Expansion#6 The Count, The King and The Robber
Post by: MrNumbers on June 16, 2014, 10:40:25 PM
he also locks players out of placing new Followers into that quadrant.

It's worth to add that this rule is seen only in RGG Big Box 2 edition of the rules (see footnote 98).
Title: Re: Expansion#6 The Count, The King and The Robber
Post by: whaleyland on June 16, 2014, 11:29:35 PM
And the new Zman rules, which is where I read it from.
Title: Re: Expansion#6 The Count, The King and The Robber
Post by: Carcking on June 17, 2014, 03:24:14 AM
...
Cathedral -> monastery
...

We should be careful with the use of the word "monastery" as it now has become its own feature, separate from the "cloister". The more accurate statement here would be:

Cathedral -> cloister (or monastery that has been employed as a cloister).

Now, after I wrote this, I am curious if the Abbey has ever been clarified with regard to the City of Carcassonne...

Title: Re: Expansion#6 The Count, The King and The Robber
Post by: jungleboy on June 17, 2014, 06:31:31 AM
This seems like as good a thread as any to discuss the Count in general. I was really looking forward to getting it a year or so ago, but I've only played it a couple of times. I like the tiles (and the look of Carcassonne is very important to me!) but I haven't found the gameplay to be very good, playing with only two players and without other expansions.

My impression is that it would be better with 3-4 players and with more expansions (i.e. more tiles and a longer game) which would give more opportunities for the Count/City to play itself out. I suppose Traders and Builders would go particularly well with the Count because they both give you a potential advantage for finishing other people's features.

Does anyone have any other tips for enjoying the Count?
Title: Re: Expansion#6 The Count, The King and The Robber
Post by: obervet on June 17, 2014, 06:42:45 AM
...
Cathedral -> monastery
...

We should be careful with the use of the word "monastery" as it now has become its own feature, separate from the "cloister". The more accurate statement here would be:

Cathedral -> cloister (or monastery that has been employed as a cloister).

Now, after I wrote this, I am curious if the Abbey has ever been clarified with regard to the City of Carcassonne...

I don't think there is a specific footnote regarding the Abbey in reference to the City. However, there are multiple other clarifications stating that an Abbey has all of the characteristics of a cloister (e.g. footnote 217, p. 73, CAR 7.0), so this would hold true for moving followers from the City as well.
Title: Re: Expansion#6 The Count, The King and The Robber
Post by: obervet on June 17, 2014, 06:58:22 AM
And the new Zman rules, which is where I read it from.

Where do the ZMG rules say about blocking the placement of followers into the quadrant? They mention multiple times that followers can't be removed from the Count's area, but I didn't see anything about blocking placement into an area.
Title: Re: Expansion#6 The Count, The King and The Robber
Post by: whaleyland on June 17, 2014, 07:20:10 AM
For those following along: http://zmangames.com/rulebooks/Carcassonne_Exp6.pdf (http://zmangames.com/rulebooks/Carcassonne_Exp6.pdf)

And it appears you are correct, obervet. I just re-read it and realize that it is talking about moving out, not in. Since they had already stated that earlier, my brain just drew an incorrect conclusion.
Title: Re: Expansion#6 The Count, The King and The Robber
Post by: Carcking on June 17, 2014, 07:23:28 AM
...
Cathedral -> monastery
...

We should be careful with the use of the word "monastery" as it now has become its own feature, separate from the "cloister". The more accurate statement here would be:

Cathedral -> cloister (or monastery that has been employed as a cloister).

Now, after I wrote this, I am curious if the Abbey has ever been clarified with regard to the City of Carcassonne...

I don't think there is a specific footnote regarding the Abbey in reference to the City. However, there are multiple other clarifications stating that an Abbey has all of the characteristics of a cloister (e.g. footnote 217, p. 73, CAR 7.0), so this would hold true for moving followers from the City as well.

There would have to be an assumption made that "has all of the characteristics of a cloister" would also explicitly mean it takes the name "cloister" as well, for the rules of the City to be applied as common knowledge. Otherwise we assume that the reader knows that features that go by names other than Road, City, Cloister and Farm are able to be entered from the City simply because they exhibit even all the characteristics of those features.

The Abbey and the Monastery may be the only examples we have to go by now but there may be others in the future. Perhaps the Shepherd's field is the next closest feature example we have. It has characteristics of the Farm but that does not grant the player the ability to enter it from the City...even if it somehow had all the characteristics of a Farm it is still a different feature than a Farm. Perhaps another good example is the Barn Farm.

Am I making sense? I'm trying to draw a distinction between "has all of the characteristics" and "actually IS the feature or takes the feature's name". I don't think it's safe to assume the "has all of the characteristics" feature can be entered from the City...therefore a clarification is warranted.
Title: Re: Expansion#6 The Count, The King and The Robber
Post by: obervet on June 17, 2014, 08:27:55 AM
There would have to be an assumption made that "has all of the characteristics of a cloister" would also explicitly mean it takes the name "cloister" as well, for the rules of the City to be applied as common knowledge. Otherwise we assume that the reader knows that features that go by names other than Road, City, Cloister and Farm are able to be entered from the City simply because they exhibit even all the characteristics of those features.

The Abbey and the Monastery may be the only examples we have to go by now but there may be others in the future. Perhaps the Shepherd's field is the next closest feature example we have. It has characteristics of the Farm but that does not grant the player the ability to enter it from the City...even if it somehow had all the characteristics of a Farm it is still a different feature than a Farm. Perhaps another good example is the Barn Farm.

Am I making sense? I'm trying to draw a distinction between "has all of the characteristics" and "actually IS the feature or takes the feature's name". I don't think it's safe to assume the "has all of the characteristics" feature can be entered from the City...therefore a clarification is warranted.

I agree that, at the very least, we need a confirmation that an abbey is (or is not) a cloister for the purposes of all game play mechanics, and that it would be prudent to add a footnote to the Count of Carcassonne section when we get the answer.

To extend this a bit further, what about shrines/cult places? Those are like cloisters but have some differences, so where do they fall for considerations of the City? And what about the (German) monasteries? At the end of the game during scoring, can a follower move from the Cathedral quadrant to a monastery (analogous to farm scoring)?
Title: Re: Expansion#6 The Count, The King and The Robber
Post by: jungleboy on June 17, 2014, 08:32:23 AM
And what about the (German) monasteries? At the end of the game during scoring, can a follower move from the Cathedral quadrant to a monastery (analogous to farm scoring)?

Now there's a way to make the Count more interesting - I hadn't thought of playing it with the German monasteries!
Title: Re: Expansion#6 The Count, The King and The Robber
Post by: Carcking on June 17, 2014, 12:18:59 PM
...what about shrines/cult places? Those are like cloisters but have some differences...

Thanks obervet - that is one of the obvious examples I was looking for. The Shrine takes on the characteristics of a Cloister. Not all, but what's left out is so minor as to be seemingly irrelevant. (I can think of a couple of differences...such as escaping a besieged city, and the name of the follower being a heretic.) I think it was stated (officially?) even that Vineyards apply to the Shrine. Importantly, though, the name stays a Shrine. Has it been officially clarified that you can you enter a Shrine from the City? Whether you can or cannot the clarification is needed in the rules of the City so there is no guessing.
Title: Re: Expansion#6 The Count, The King and The Robber
Post by: asparagus on June 17, 2014, 12:34:40 PM
Thanks obervet - that is one of the obvious examples I was looking for. The Shrine takes on the characteristics of a Cloister.

My philosophical view of Carcassonne is that there are four fundamental types of feature (defined topologically):
This is an abstract view but much more represents how I see the game. In my view any new feature should usually fall into one of these categories and should inherit any rule applying to the base type unless otherwise stated.

So an abbey is exactly a monastery except in how the tile is placed.
A German monastery with an abbot is exactly like a monastery except in how it is scored.
A shrine is exactly like a monastery except in where the tile can be placed and in its interactions with monasteries.

It is then the interactions between these expansions that I find fascinating. Whilst it is good to confirm every combination of the rules we should have faith that the decisions will accord with these principles.
Title: Re: Expansion#6 The Count, The King and The Robber
Post by: obervet on June 18, 2014, 06:04:01 AM
Honestly, I could see the answer to this question going either way. If it were my decision, I would say that all of the cloister-like structures would count for purposes of the City of Carcassonne, as my thought process is along the lines of asparagus's views in the previous post, and abbeys have already been defined as very much like cloisters (and perhaps are actually "cloisters with benefits"). However other clarifications (castles come to mind) have shown that names matter, as a castle is not just a special city, it is an entirely new feature.

So, basically we will have to leave this in the capable hands of kettlefish to find out the whole truth.  :)
Title: Re: Expansion#6 The Count, The King and The Robber
Post by: asparagus on June 18, 2014, 06:07:24 AM
However other clarifications (castles come to mind) have shown that names matter, as a castle is not just a special city, it is an entirely new feature.

I'm not sure I agree about this. Castle's are still modified cities. They still give a score to farms even it is not the normal one.
Title: Re: Expansion#6 The Count, The King and The Robber
Post by: obervet on June 18, 2014, 06:27:17 AM
However other clarifications (castles come to mind) have shown that names matter, as a castle is not just a special city, it is an entirely new feature.

I'm not sure I agree about this. Castle's are still modified cities. They still give a score to farms even it is not the normal one.

They do still give points to farms, but they don't count as cities for the purposes of the King, and besieged cities that turn into castles no longer have the siege effect, so there are several clarifications that indicate that these are not cities. They are separate features that just happen to have one effect that is similar to those of cities.
Title: Re: Expansion#6 The Count, The King and The Robber
Post by: asparagus on June 18, 2014, 07:06:23 AM
However other clarifications (castles come to mind) have shown that names matter, as a castle is not just a special city, it is an entirely new feature.

I'm not sure I agree about this. Castle's are still modified cities. They still give a score to farms even it is not the normal one.

They do still give points to farms, but they don't count as cities for the purposes of the King, and besieged cities that turn into castles no longer have the siege effect, so there are several clarifications that indicate that these are not cities. They are separate features that just happen to have one effect that is similar to those of cities.


I think you have uncovered my philosophical bias. I want as few new terrain types as possible. Where I can I will interpret a feature as an existing type I will. I can still just about interpret a castle as a city - even if it is too much of a stretch for you. The gold mines fan expansion has point topology like monasteries but are clearly not monasteries but I am inclined to rebrand them as a type of monastery so that they can conform to my bias.
Title: Re: Expansion#6 The Count, The King and The Robber
Post by: kettlefish on June 18, 2014, 08:04:27 AM
However other clarifications (castles come to mind) have shown that names matter, as a castle is not just a special city, it is an entirely new feature.

I'm not sure I agree about this. Castle's are still modified cities. They still give a score to farms even it is not the normal one.

They do still give points to farms, but they don't count as cities for the purposes of the King, and besieged cities that turn into castles no longer have the siege effect, so there are several clarifications that indicate that these are not cities. They are separate features that just happen to have one effect that is similar to those of cities.


I think you have uncovered my philosophical bias. I want as few new terrain types as possible. Where I can I will interpret a feature as an existing type I will. I can still just about interpret a castle as a city - even if it is too much of a stretch for you. The gold mines fan expansion has point topology like monasteries but are clearly not monasteries but I am inclined to rebrand them as a type of monastery so that they can conform to my bias.
asparagus,
what has this discussion to do with this topic here "Expansion#6 The Count, The King and The Robber"?
Please explain.
Title: Re: Expansion#6 The Count, The King and The Robber
Post by: asparagus on June 18, 2014, 08:08:30 AM
asparagus,
what has this discussion to do with this topic here "Expansion#6 The Count, The King and The Robber"?
Please explain.

It started with whether a German monastery is a sort of monastery for Count of Carcassonne purposes and ended up about in what sense a castle is a city.
Title: Re: Expansion#6 The Count, The King and The Robber
Post by: kettlefish on June 18, 2014, 09:24:46 AM
City of Carcassonne:

section: "Castle" - the followers in this section are placed into a "city" (follower as a knight).
The feature "castle" (castle token on top of a two half round city) is not a city - so here NO.

section: "Cathedral" - the followers in this section are placed on a cloister (follower as a monk).
The "German Monasteries" - only the function as a cloister (follower as a monk) - YES
The "German Monasteries" - the function as a "German Monastery" (follower as a abbot) - NO.

"Cult Places"  (German: Kultstaetten) - the cult places are a part of this complete 6th expansion. The rule of the Count of Carcassonne only tells us something about a "cloister" (German: Kloster). In my opinion is: NO.
But I can ask HiG if you like.

Title: Re: Expansion#6 The Count, The King and The Robber
Post by: kettlefish on June 18, 2014, 09:48:34 AM
...
"Cult Places"  (German: Kultstaetten) - the cult places are a part of this complete 6th expansion. The rule of the Count of Carcassonne only tells us something about a "cloister" (German: Kloster). That means: NO.
But I can ask HiG if you like.

I've looked at the homepage from Christian H. - Cult Places: YES.

Ok  - then YES.
Title: Re: Expansion#6 The Count, The King and The Robber
Post by: Carcking on June 18, 2014, 10:39:33 AM
...
"Cult Places"  (German: Kultstaetten) - the cult places are a part of this complete 6th expansion. The rule of the Count of Carcassonne only tells us something about a "cloister" (German: Kloster). That means: NO.
But I can ask HiG if you like.

I've looked at the homepage from Christian H. - Cult Places: YES.

Ok  - then YES.

I knew I had seen this somewhere - thanks for pointing this out kettlefish.

But also, we need to know about the Abbey. Can you enter an abbey from the City?
Title: Re: Expansion#6 The Count, The King and The Robber
Post by: kettlefish on June 18, 2014, 10:44:55 AM
Abbey - YES if this placement of that tile is the 9th (complete cloister with 9 tiles)
Title: Re: Expansion#6 The Count, The King and The Robber
Post by: Carcking on June 18, 2014, 10:50:22 AM
Abbey - YES if this placement of that tile is the 9th (complete cloister with 9 tiles)

Your answer seems to make it contingent on it being completed with the placement of the abbey.

But, you can place an abbey into less than 9 tiles, even as few as 4. It is still like a cloister even if it isn't completed immediately. Wouldn't you still be able to enter it from the City when it is completed?
Title: Re: Expansion#6 The Count, The King and The Robber
Post by: kettlefish on June 18, 2014, 10:56:24 AM
Abbey - YES if this placement of that tile is the 9th (complete cloister with 9 tiles)

Your answer seems to make it contingent on it being completed with the placement of the abbey.

But, you can place an abbey into less than 9 tiles, even as few as 4. It is still like a cloister even if it isn't completed immediately. Wouldn't you still be able to enter it from the City when it is completed?

The rule of the Count of Carcassonne:

"from the cathedral to a just completed cloister"
Title: Re: Expansion#6 The Count, The King and The Robber
Post by: Carcking on June 18, 2014, 11:01:31 AM
The rule of the Count of Carcassonne:

"from the cathedral to a just completed cloister"

Yes, but that doesn't mean that the cloister tile is the last tile placed in that feature.
Title: Re: Expansion#6 The Count, The King and The Robber
Post by: kettlefish on June 18, 2014, 11:05:12 AM
The rule of the Count of Carcassonne:

"from the cathedral to a just completed cloister"

Yes, but that doesn't mean that the cloister tile is the last tile placed in that feature.
A cloister is only then finished for scoring if there are 9 tiles (8 tiles around the cloister - here Abbey)
-----------------
Edit:
Sorry Carcking,
I think I am tired... YES the Abbey tile don't need the last tile.
I was always thinking you mean the just placement of the Abbey tile - then it need the 9th tile.
But if the Abbey tile was already placed some game rounds before, then it only need one of the 8 surrounding tiles for finishing the cloister / Abbey.
Title: Re: Expansion#6 The Count, The King and The Robber
Post by: Carcking on June 18, 2014, 12:59:10 PM
So do we have it officially from HiG then that the Cloister, the Shrine and the Abbey are all the same as far as the City of Carcassonne is concerned?



And maybe off-topic, but is the Shrine able to challenge an Abbey, and vice versa?

Also, does the Abbey get the benefit of the Vineyards?

Title: Re: Expansion#6 The Count, The King and The Robber
Post by: kettlefish on June 18, 2014, 01:18:11 PM
Quote
Also, does the Abbey get the benefit of the Vineyards?
I've called with HiG - 20 05 2014: YES
Title: Re: Expansion#6 The Count, The King and The Robber
Post by: Scott on June 21, 2014, 06:53:37 AM
I seem to recall that a shrine can't challenge an abbey, but I can't prove it.
Title: Re: Expansion#6 The Count, The King and The Robber
Post by: Paul on June 21, 2014, 07:23:14 AM
I seem to recall that a shrine can't challenge an abbey, but I can't prove it.

CAR v7.0 which is the only source for me regarding the Abbey and Shrine together I found these footnotes quotes:

208: The rules that restrict placement of cloisters next to already placed shrines also restrict the placement of Abbeys.

213: A shrine can challenge an abbey, and vice versa, because abbey is also a cloister.

Mayhaps already read this, but figure I post regardless.  :(y)
Title: Re: Expansion#6 The Count, The King and The Robber
Post by: Scott on June 21, 2014, 07:24:41 AM
I stand corrected.
Title: Re: Expansion#6 The Count, The King and The Robber
Post by: obervet on July 06, 2014, 08:15:42 AM
Okay, all of the various clarifications from this thread have been incorporated into the new CAR.