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Carc Central Community => Official Rules => Topic started by: DrMeeple on December 30, 2020, 04:38:54 AM

Title: Castle scoring with mayors
Post by: DrMeeple on December 30, 2020, 04:38:54 AM
Note by Meepledrone: This thread stems from a discussion about castle scoring involving mayors.



Question #14: After Danisthirty places this tile, how many points does each player score, if any?

(http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=4911.0;attach=13385)



Answer #14: The Blue Abbot scores no points. It was just placed on an incomplete monastery.

The tile placed completes an unoccupied 2-tile road. Nobody scores for the road itself but it triggers the scoring of the castle occupied by the Yellow Mayor. The castle is entitled to receive 2 points for the completed road (2 tiles x 1 point per tile) but the Yellow Mayor cannot score those points since the castle is a feature with no coats of arms.

So the Yellow Mayor will score 0 points for the road but will be able to receive the fairy 3-point scoring bonus. This means that Yellow scores 3 points after all.

Additionally, the completion of the castle occupied by Yellow triggers the scoring of the castle occupied by Red, since the castles overlap each other's fiefs. The Red Castle Lord will also be entitled to score the same 2 points the previous castle was entitled to for the road. As a result, Red will score 2 points.

Notes:
* A key point here is the dissociation between the points a feature is worth and the points a meeple can score. Castles see the points completed features are worth, even if the meeples on them cannot score those points. 
* Red will not be able to receive any points from the fairy. The fairy bonus is not part of the scoring of a feature but a bonus associated to a meeple.

Bottomline:
- Blue scores 0 points
- Red scores 2 points
- Yellow scores 3 points
Hahahaha I was waiting for another contradiction rules with no sense hahaha


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Title: Re: Castle scoring with mayors
Post by: DrMeeple on December 30, 2020, 08:51:44 AM
Aaw, questions 13 and 14 are marking the end of my correct answers streak...  :'(
Maybe the beginning of my wrong answers streak?  >:D

13: I did only explore the first scenario, the second seemed to unlogical to me, as yellow would never allow it  :o ???

14: I thought the second castle would get the same number of points than the first (without fairy of course), 0 points.
Here's a correction I have to make to the French order of play  ;)
Meepledrone castle scoring for red player has no sense...


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Title: Re: Castle scoring with mayors
Post by: Meepledrone on December 30, 2020, 09:26:48 AM
Aaw, questions 13 and 14 are marking the end of my correct answers streak...  :'(
Maybe the beginning of my wrong answers streak?  >:D

13: I did only explore the first scenario, the second seemed to unlogical to me, as yellow would never allow it  :o ???

14: I thought the second castle would get the same number of points than the first (without fairy of course), 0 points.
Here's a correction I have to make to the French order of play  ;)
Meepledrone castle scoring for red player has no sense...


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Again, castles receive points from features, not points scored by meeples. This allows a castle to score points for an unoccupied feature, and this means that if you have several overlapping castles, they all share the points for the same feature, no matter if some of them are occupied by mayors and these only score 0 points.

If you assume Red would clone the 0 points scored by the Yellow Mayor for the castle, you should also be able to see the 3 points for the fairy? We are "cloning" feature points not meeple points.
Title: Re: Castle scoring with mayors
Post by: DrMeeple on December 30, 2020, 09:29:12 AM
Aaw, questions 13 and 14 are marking the end of my correct answers streak...  :'(
Maybe the beginning of my wrong answers streak?  >:D

13: I did only explore the first scenario, the second seemed to unlogical to me, as yellow would never allow it  :o ???

14: I thought the second castle would get the same number of points than the first (without fairy of course), 0 points.
Here's a correction I have to make to the French order of play  ;)
Meepledrone castle scoring for red player has no sense...


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Again, castles receive points from features, not points scored by meeples. This allows a castle to score points for an unoccupied feature, and this means that if you have several overlapping castles, they all share the points for the same feature, no matter if some of them are occupied by mayors and these only score 0 points.

If you assume Red would clone the 0 points scored by the Yellow Mayor for the castle, you should also be able to see the 3 points for the fairy? We are "cloning" feature points not meeple points.
Scoring a castle with the score of another castle which in turn is a feature outside the first castle is against the rules itself ... It doesn't make any sense


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Title: Re: Castle scoring with mayors
Post by: DrMeeple on December 30, 2020, 09:36:33 AM
Aaw, questions 13 and 14 are marking the end of my correct answers streak...  :'(
Maybe the beginning of my wrong answers streak?  >:D

13: I did only explore the first scenario, the second seemed to unlogical to me, as yellow would never allow it  :o ???

14: I thought the second castle would get the same number of points than the first (without fairy of course), 0 points.
Here's a correction I have to make to the French order of play  ;)
Meepledrone castle scoring for red player has no sense...


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Again, castles receive points from features, not points scored by meeples. This allows a castle to score points for an unoccupied feature, and this means that if you have several overlapping castles, they all share the points for the same feature, no matter if some of them are occupied by mayors and these only score 0 points.

If you assume Red would clone the 0 points scored by the Yellow Mayor for the castle, you should also be able to see the 3 points for the fairy? We are "cloning" feature points not meeple points.
Scoring a castle with the score of another castle which in turn is a feature outside the first castle is against the rules itself ... It doesn't make any sense


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The rules says that a castle scores a feature of its 6 tiles but not beyond ... If there is a castle within the zone of another castle as is the case in the example, it is valued if there is a feature that is shared or not ... Take the points of another castle because it is on the zone of another does not make any logical sense following the basic principle of expansion ...
It seems that you want to go beyond the regulations and in the end you fall into contradictions ... If this is written as official regulations, it should be reviewed ...


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Title: Re: Castle scoring with mayors
Post by: corinthiens13 on December 30, 2020, 09:49:44 AM
The rules says that a castle scores a feature of its 6 tiles but not beyond ... If there is a castle within the zone of another castle as is the case in the example, it is valued if there is a feature that is shared or not ... Take the points of another castle because it is on the zone of another does not make any logical sense following the basic principle of expansion ...
It seems that you want to go beyond the regulations and in the end you fall into contradictions ... If this is written as official regulations, it should be reviewed ...


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The official base rules are stating:
Quote
. Two or more incomplete castles may be standing next to each other. If one of them scores points, it will be considered as a completed feature for the adjacent castles. All the castle owners receive the same number of points. 

So both meeples get the same number of points for the feature. Those are the base official rules you can find printed in any exp 8 box.


The rules also say :
Quote
You can place the following figures in a castle:
[...]
Mayor, however, since the castle doesn't have a coat of arms, the mayor cannot score points

So, as one is a mayor, he can't get the points, only the points for his fairy.

Those are also the base official rules you can find printed in any exp 8 box, in the "other expansions" section.

Please read the rules before saying we are inventing them.

And Meepledrone has the best knowledge of the rules, official, and also of those provided as clarifications by HiG. Of course you may not like those rules, and you're free to use your own, but please stop criticizing our work, and try to discuss gently when you see a contradiction, there are allways some.
Title: Re: Castle scoring with mayors
Post by: Bumsakalaka on December 30, 2020, 10:33:15 AM
Aaw, questions 13 and 14 are marking the end of my correct answers streak...  :'(
Maybe the beginning of my wrong answers streak?  >:D

13: I did only explore the first scenario, the second seemed to unlogical to me, as yellow would never allow it  :o ???

14: I thought the second castle would get the same number of points than the first (without fairy of course), 0 points.
Here's a correction I have to make to the French order of play  ;)
Meepledrone castle scoring for red player has no sense...


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It has. Because check following sconario:
1. Finished road fire finish castle with Yellow meeple
2. Finished castle with Yellow meeple fire finish castle with Red meeple
right?
Title: Re: Castle scoring with mayors
Post by: corinthiens13 on December 30, 2020, 10:35:47 AM
Aaw, questions 13 and 14 are marking the end of my correct answers streak...  :'(
Maybe the beginning of my wrong answers streak?  >:D

13: I did only explore the first scenario, the second seemed to unlogical to me, as yellow would never allow it  :o ???

14: I thought the second castle would get the same number of points than the first (without fairy of course), 0 points.
Here's a correction I have to make to the French order of play  ;)
Meepledrone castle scoring for red player has no sense...


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It has. Because check following sconario:
1. Finished road fire finish castle with Yellow meeple
2. Finished castle with Yellow meeple fire finish castle with Red meeple
right?

Exactly  ;)
Title: Re: Castle scoring with mayors
Post by: DrMeeple on December 30, 2020, 10:42:55 AM
The rules says that a castle scores a feature of its 6 tiles but not beyond ... If there is a castle within the zone of another castle as is the case in the example, it is valued if there is a feature that is shared or not ... Take the points of another castle because it is on the zone of another does not make any logical sense following the basic principle of expansion ...
It seems that you want to go beyond the regulations and in the end you fall into contradictions ... If this is written as official regulations, it should be reviewed ...


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The official base rules are stating:
Quote
. Two or more incomplete castles may be standing next to each other. If one of them scores points, it will be considered as a completed feature for the adjacent castles. All the castle owners receive the same number of points. 

So both meeples get the same number of points for the feature. Those are the base official rules you can find printed in any exp 8 box.


The rules also say :
Quote
You can place the following figures in a castle:
[...]
Mayor, however, since the castle doesn't have a coat of arms, the mayor cannot score points

So, as one is a mayor, he can't get the points, only the points for his fairy.

Those are also the base official rules you can find printed in any exp 8 box, in the "other expansions" section.

Please read the rules before saying we are inventing them.

And Meepledrone has the best knowledge of the rules, official, and also of those provided as clarifications by HiG. Of course you may not like those rules, and you're free to use your own, but please stop criticizing our work, and try to discuss gently when you see a contradiction, there are allways some.
The problem is precisely that the official rules clearly explain how a castle works. Yes, I know what that phrase says, 'Two or more incomplete castles may be standing next to each other. If one of them scores points, it will be considered as a completed feature for the adjacent castles. All the castle owners receive the same number of points' BUT what is an adjacent castle? They don’t put any example in images in the rules ... The problem is if you take that phrase out of the context of the rules themselves and interpret it as if or if it always has to be like this ... In that case you can fall into contradiction ... It goes without saying that knowing that a castle scores the 6 surrounding tiles, an adjacent castle must follow the same rules and yes or yes is an example in which they share land in some way ... If you decide to take the phrase out of the rules itself base and apply it to all cases contradicts the scoring rule itself ...
I don't understand why are you talking about the mayor becasue isn’t the problem... The mistake is in the red player's castle ...


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Title: Re: Castle scoring with mayors
Post by: DrMeeple on December 30, 2020, 10:46:36 AM
Aaw, questions 13 and 14 are marking the end of my correct answers streak...  :'(
Maybe the beginning of my wrong answers streak?  >:D

13: I did only explore the first scenario, the second seemed to unlogical to me, as yellow would never allow it  :o ???

14: I thought the second castle would get the same number of points than the first (without fairy of course), 0 points.
Here's a correction I have to make to the French order of play  ;)
Meepledrone castle scoring for red player has no sense...


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It has. Because check following sconario:
1. Finished road fire finish castle with Yellow meeple
2. Finished castle with Yellow meeple fire finish castle with Red meeple
right?
It would make sense if the feature was shared by both of you. Otherwise you contradict the basic rules itself.


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Title: Re: Castle scoring with mayors
Post by: Meepledrone on December 30, 2020, 11:41:24 AM
Aaw, questions 13 and 14 are marking the end of my correct answers streak...  :'(
Maybe the beginning of my wrong answers streak?  >:D

13: I did only explore the first scenario, the second seemed to unlogical to me, as yellow would never allow it  :o ???

14: I thought the second castle would get the same number of points than the first (without fairy of course), 0 points.
Here's a correction I have to make to the French order of play  ;)
Meepledrone castle scoring for red player has no sense...


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It has. Because check following sconario:
1. Finished road fire finish castle with Yellow meeple
2. Finished castle with Yellow meeple fire finish castle with Red meeple
right?
It would make sense if the feature was shared by both of you. Otherwise you contradict the basic rules itself.


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Question 14 is similar to this example: How many points does each player score?

I just replaced the castle for a city... I don't think Red scores 0 points because of the mayor.  ;)
Title: Re: Castle scoring with mayors
Post by: DrMeeple on December 30, 2020, 11:50:05 AM
Aaw, questions 13 and 14 are marking the end of my correct answers streak...  :'(
Maybe the beginning of my wrong answers streak?  >:D

13: I did only explore the first scenario, the second seemed to unlogical to me, as yellow would never allow it  :o ???

14: I thought the second castle would get the same number of points than the first (without fairy of course), 0 points.
Here's a correction I have to make to the French order of play  ;)
Meepledrone castle scoring for red player has no sense...


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It has. Because check following sconario:
1. Finished road fire finish castle with Yellow meeple
2. Finished castle with Yellow meeple fire finish castle with Red meeple
right?
It would make sense if the feature was shared by both of you. Otherwise you contradict the basic rules itself.


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Question 14 is similar to this example: How many points does each player score?

I just replaced the castle for a city... I don't think Red scores 0 points because of the mayor.  ;)
Obviously it will take the points of the city because it’s within 6 tiles. Whether the city has meeple or not ... It is simply to apply the rules ... In this case there isn’t contradiction ...


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Title: Re: Castle scoring with mayors
Post by: Meepledrone on December 30, 2020, 12:38:44 PM
Aaw, questions 13 and 14 are marking the end of my correct answers streak...  :'(
Maybe the beginning of my wrong answers streak?  >:D

13: I did only explore the first scenario, the second seemed to unlogical to me, as yellow would never allow it  :o ???

14: I thought the second castle would get the same number of points than the first (without fairy of course), 0 points.
Here's a correction I have to make to the French order of play  ;)
Meepledrone castle scoring for red player has no sense...


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It has. Because check following sconario:
1. Finished road fire finish castle with Yellow meeple
2. Finished castle with Yellow meeple fire finish castle with Red meeple
right?
It would make sense if the feature was shared by both of you. Otherwise you contradict the basic rules itself.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Question 14 is similar to this example: How many points does each player score?

I just replaced the castle for a city... I don't think Red scores 0 points because of the mayor.  ;)

(http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=4911.0;attach=13475)
Obviously it will take the points of the city because it’s within 6 tiles. Whether the city has meeple or not ... It is simply to apply the rules ... In this case there isn’t contradiction ...


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The rules in Exp. 8 say:
Quote
Two or more incomplete castles may be standing next to each other. If one of them scores points, it will be considered as a completed feature for the adjacent castles. All the castle owners receive the same number of points.

So what happens in the example below? Do Yellow and Red score 0 points because of the Yellow Mayor? According to the rules they should receive the same points... and this is true for all the meeples until the mayor shows up.

There is a subtlety here: The feature is worth X points and the meeple may receive those X points but the meeple can score or cannot score those points (the mayor in this case). This is the decoupling I'm mentioning above.

So the scoring for this example should be:
- Blue scores 4 points for the city.
- Red scores 4 points for the city.
- Yellow scores 0 points for the city.

As per the rules, the castles owners receive the same points, but only Red can score them.
Title: Re: Castle scoring with mayors
Post by: DrMeeple on December 30, 2020, 12:50:32 PM
The yellow meeple scores according to the rules. He continues scoring but according to the figure he is ... If he is a mayor he will score according to the rules but he will score 0-X points ... There is no possible contradiction in this example...  ???
Title: Re: Castle scoring with mayors
Post by: DrMeeple on December 30, 2020, 12:54:16 PM
(https://i0.wp.com/hoofnerd.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/gb8_fighting_memes_image.jpg)

 ;D
(https://media3.giphy.com/media/55rK0m0pzyUbyyicrs/giphy.gif)


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Title: Re: Castle scoring with mayors
Post by: Bumsakalaka on December 30, 2020, 01:10:14 PM
Aaw, questions 13 and 14 are marking the end of my correct answers streak...  :'(
Maybe the beginning of my wrong answers streak?  >:D

13: I did only explore the first scenario, the second seemed to unlogical to me, as yellow would never allow it  :o ???

14: I thought the second castle would get the same number of points than the first (without fairy of course), 0 points.
Here's a correction I have to make to the French order of play  ;)
Meepledrone castle scoring for red player has no sense...


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It has. Because check following sconario:
1. Finished road fire finish castle with Yellow meeple
2. Finished castle with Yellow meeple fire finish castle with Red meeple
right?
It would make sense if the feature was shared by both of you. Otherwise you contradict the basic rules itself.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Question 14 is similar to this example: How many points does each player score?

I just replaced the castle for a city... I don't think Red scores 0 points because of the mayor.  ;)


@Meepledrone this means that feature is completed, all possible bonuses (vineyard, german castle, etc) or reducers (witch) are computed and then is firing for castle lords, doesn't matter if feature shores any other player (has there meeple) or it's free (including Mayor in city without tennant or Mayor on castle). Which means that also figures bonuses like Fairy / Ringmaster bonus are not consider for castle score, right?
Title: Re: Castle scoring with mayors
Post by: Meepledrone on December 30, 2020, 01:11:33 PM
(https://i0.wp.com/hoofnerd.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/gb8_fighting_memes_image.jpg)

 ;D
(https://media3.giphy.com/media/55rK0m0pzyUbyyicrs/giphy.gif)


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Ha ha ha!

I'm going to split this discussion to s separate thread...
Title: Re: Castle scoring with mayors
Post by: DrMeeple on December 30, 2020, 01:23:50 PM
Mmmmm I have no problems with mayors on castles... For me the contradiction begins with the sentence castle adyacent and the interpretations about it hahaha


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Title: Re: Castle scoring with mayors
Post by: Meepledrone on December 30, 2020, 01:42:43 PM
Aaw, questions 13 and 14 are marking the end of my correct answers streak...  :'(
Maybe the beginning of my wrong answers streak?  >:D

13: I did only explore the first scenario, the second seemed to unlogical to me, as yellow would never allow it  :o ???

14: I thought the second castle would get the same number of points than the first (without fairy of course), 0 points.
Here's a correction I have to make to the French order of play  ;)
Meepledrone castle scoring for red player has no sense...


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

It has. Because check following sconario:
1. Finished road fire finish castle with Yellow meeple
2. Finished castle with Yellow meeple fire finish castle with Red meeple
right?
It would make sense if the feature was shared by both of you. Otherwise you contradict the basic rules itself.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Question 14 is similar to this example: How many points does each player score?

I just replaced the castle for a city... I don't think Red scores 0 points because of the mayor.  ;)


@Meepledrone this means that feature is completed, all possible bonuses (vineyard, german castle, etc) or reducers (witch) are computed and then is firing for castle lords, doesn't matter if feature shores any other player (has there meeple) or it's free (including Mayor in city without tennant or Mayor on castle). Which means that also figures bonuses like Fairy / Ringmaster bonus are not consider for castle score, right?

When you score a feature, some points come from:
* The feature tiles: points per tile/coat of arms plus modifiers (inns, cathedrals, German cathedrals,...) followed by Mage/Witch
* Bonuses to the feature: German castles, Little Buildings, Bathhouses, Vineyards, Darmstadtium, Labyrinth bonus...
All these points associated to the feature tiles plus bonuses to the feature are the ones a castle can receive, no matter who occupies the feature as you mentioned (it can be even empty).

Check here for a feature list and their modifiers (PnP expansions are not included yet):
https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Bridges,_Castles_and_Bazaars#Castles_2 (https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Bridges,_Castles_and_Bazaars#Castles_2)

As you said, there are other bonuses triggered by the scoring of a feature but associated to tokens or figures. These bonuses but don't trigger the scoring of a castle (castles can't see these points):
* Tokens: toolhouse bonus
* Figures: Watchtower bonus, Fairy scoring bonus, Ringmaster bonus, Teacher bonus, Markets of Leipzig
Title: Re: Castle scoring with mayors
Post by: Meepledrone on December 30, 2020, 02:09:54 PM
Mmmmm I have no problems with mayors on castles... For me the contradiction begins with the sentence castle adyacent and the interpretations about it hahaha


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For a castle, adjacent means on one of the two tiles on which the castle itself stand, the two to its left, or the two to its right: a total of six tile.

So a castle is adjacent to another if it overlaps the fief of the latter. So the scoring of the former castle will trigger the scoring of the latter.

Two castles can be mutually adjacent like in my previous example. In this case both castles score the same points in normal conditions (no mayors involved). Both castles are entitled to the same points but the ones with mayors won't be able to score them.

So when scoring adjacent castles, my point is that you will have to address dependencies first and score only those not occupied by mayors. In general terms:
1. Resolve dependencies between castles
2. Determine the scoring for each completed feature (and other bonuses not affecting castles)
3. Determine the points each castle is entitled to according to the features triggering them
4. Score points (mayors in castles will not receive points for features)
Title: Re: Castle scoring with mayors
Post by: DrMeeple on January 01, 2021, 12:57:34 AM
'For a castle, adjacent means on one of the two tiles on which the castle itself stand, the two to its left, or the two to its right: a total of six tile.'

Why do you make this conclusion? Any example of HiG? The sentence of the official rules could be some more easy and clear interpretation.
If you understand this about 'adjacent' the contradiction begins...

Enviado desde St. Meeple Hospital

Title: Re: Castle scoring with mayors
Post by: DrMeeple on January 01, 2021, 01:02:52 AM
'So a castle is adjacent to another if it overlaps the fief of the latter. So the scoring of the former castle will trigger the scoring of the latter.'
This is your conclusion based on one sentence of the rules right?
Very dangerous... If you think adjacent is the same of overlap... The contradiction grows up...


Enviado desde St. Meeple Hospital
Title: Re: Castle scoring with mayors
Post by: Meepledrone on January 01, 2021, 02:33:35 AM
'For a castle, adjacent means on one of the two tiles on which the castle itself stand, the two to its left, or the two to its right: a total of six tile.'

Why do you make this conclusion? Any example of HiG? The sentence of the official rules could be some more easy and clear interpretation.
If you understand this about 'adjacent' the contradiction begins...

Enviado desde St. Meeple Hospital

I'm quoting the Glossary of the CAR v7.4, page 282. (The Glossary on WICA is not finished yet. :'() If you look up "adjacent," this is the sentence addressing castles. Note: In C2 the rules use "neighboring" instead of "adjacent" (Why trying to be consistent?)

This sentence is just describing the fief of a castle. So any feature in those 6 spaces is adjacent to the castle. Since castles sit between two tiles, a castle adjacent to another one has to overlap any of the tiles in those 6 spaces.

(https://wikicarpedia.com/images/c/c5/Bridges_Castles_Bazaars_C2_Castles_Example_02.png)

In the following clarification, you can see an example of castle adjacency:
https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Bridges,_Castles_and_Bazaars#cite_note-19 (https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Bridges,_Castles_and_Bazaars#cite_note-19)

(https://wikicarpedia.com/images/6/66/Bridges_Castles_Bazaars_C2_Castle_Overlaping.png)

You can see here that the castles occupied by Red and Yellow overlap each other fiefs (they are are mutually adjacent). Whatever feature triggers the scoring of one of them would trigger the scoring of the other. They would be receiving the same points, to be scored by the castle lord if possible (I'm referring to mayors).

However, the castle occupied by Blue is only adjacent to the one occupied by Red but not vice versa. The castle occupied by Blue can trigger the scoring of the castle occupied by Red, but not the other way round.



Getting back to our issue, how would you score this case where both castles are mutually adjacent? If I understood you correctly, you say the players should be scoring the same points as the other castle lord, as you discussed regarding Question #14 of the Advent Quiz. This would be deciding the points to score at figure level, not at feature level. If so, we would enter an endless loop (Quantum scoring?  ;)):
* Red should score 4 points for the city
* Yellow should be scoring 0 points for the city.
* However, since both castles are adjacent, both occupiers should be scoring the same points as the other castle lord, so Red should be also scoring 0 points...
* But, Red should score 4 points for the city
* ...  :o

(http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=4954.0;attach=13476)

So, my point is that both castles receive the 4 points for the city, that is, the points are decided at feature level. All the castles are entitled to score the same points, but then their castle lords score those points according to their possibilities. So Red scores 4 points and Yellow scores 0 points for their castles.
Title: Re: Castle scoring with mayors
Post by: DrMeeple on January 01, 2021, 09:01:24 AM
The Eyeeple wants to put the tile to close the city but it wants to put a castle for Snakeeple... How much they score?
This is an example for me to literally ‘next to’ castle to apply what the HiG official sentence says...

(https://i.imgur.com/BikmSFM.jpg?1)
Title: Re: Castle scoring with mayors
Post by: DrMeeple on January 01, 2021, 09:43:36 AM
As you can see, all the castles are literally next to each other.

(https://i.imgur.com/bDDFqLW.jpg?1)
Title: Re: Castle scoring with mayors
Post by: Meepledrone on January 01, 2021, 11:33:53 AM
Ha ha ha!

You have there castle-only urban plan!

In this case, all these castles score the same points, except the one with the Snakeeple that was just built. They all score 2 points for the unoccupied road completed by the tile just placed. Besides, the road overlaps all the castle fiefs:

- Snakeeple scores no points (castle just built, so cannot score right away)
- Spidereeple scores 2 points
- Brown Cowboy Meeple scores 2 points
- Skeleton Meeple scores 2 points
- Red Meeple scores 2 points
Title: Re: Castle scoring with mayors
Post by: DrMeeple on January 01, 2021, 11:51:15 AM
Ha ha ha!

You have there castle-only urban plan!

In this case, all these castles score the same points, except the one with the Snakeeple that was just built. They all score 2 points for the unoccupied road completed by the tile just placed. Besides, the road overlaps all the castle fiefs:

- Snakeeple scores no points (castle just built, so cannot score right away)
- Spidereeple scores 2 points
- Brown Cowboy Meeple scores 2 points
- Skeleton Meeple scores 2 points
- Red Meeple scores 2 points

Some characters haven’t been presented properly yet...  :o

-Indiana Meeple Jones: Hello Meepledrone my name is Indiana Meeple Jones and I like adventure and discovering relics still hidden ... much older than C1 land..
-Skeletoneeple: Hello Meepledrone my name is Skeletoneeple and I like to scare Fairy specially... My mother is the Witch.
-The Indian Princess: Hello Meepledrone my name is The Indian Princess and I come from a place far away from the carcassonne series around the world that you haven’t yet visited.
Title: Re: Castle scoring with mayors
Post by: DrMeeple on January 01, 2021, 12:32:07 PM
Ha ha ha!

You have there castle-only urban plan!

In this case, all these castles score the same points, except the one with the Snakeeple that was just built. They all score 2 points for the unoccupied road completed by the tile just placed. Besides, the road overlaps all the castle fiefs:

- Snakeeple scores no points (castle just built, so cannot score right away)
- Spidereeple scores 2 points
- Brown Cowboy Meeple scores 2 points
- Skeleton Meeple scores 2 points
- Red Meeple scores 2 points

Exactly Meepledrone, in this example there isn’t doubt for the interpretation of the famous official sentence.
Title: Re: Castle scoring with mayors
Post by: DrMeeple on January 04, 2021, 03:35:16 AM
Next level...
The Eyeeple closes the road of Ghosty ...
Who would score in this situation?
Which castles are literally next to each other and which are not?

I would like to know different points of view  :yellow-meeple:

(https://i.imgur.com/o6YtW6B.jpg?1)
Title: Re: Castle scoring with mayors
Post by: Vital Pluymers on January 04, 2021, 04:48:02 AM
If none of these very nice and colourful meeples fulfills a mayor role, than all castle owners score 4 points.

Red Meeple and Snakeeple score 4 points for the road which is the first closed feature in their respective fiefs.
Brown Cowboy Meeple and Skeleton Meeple score 4 points for the other two castles which are the first completed features in their respective fiefs.

So, I really don't understand what the fuss is all about or what we are trying to prove with this topic.
The rules are clear. A castle score the same number of points as the first feature(s) that is/are scored in its fief.
The discussion about adjacent or not is not even relevant...
Title: Re: Castle scoring with mayors
Post by: DrMeeple on January 04, 2021, 02:30:42 PM
'The rules are clear. A castle score the same number of points as the first feature(s) that is/are scored in its fief.
The discussion about adjacent or not is not even relevant...'

Are really clear? You say Castle score same points as the first FEATURE. But you give the same points to all the castles even the road is out of their fiefs. Then... Is a Castle a feature? First contradiction of basic rules begins...
The discussion about what is adjacent or what not is the key.
Tomorrow I will post the next example to explain what I'm talking about.

Enviado desde St. Meeple Hospital

Title: Re: Castle scoring with mayors
Post by: Vital Pluymers on January 04, 2021, 02:58:24 PM
But you give the same points to all the castles even the road is out of their fiefs. Then... Is a Castle a feature? First contradiction of basic rules begins...
The discussion about what is adjacent or what not is the key.
Tomorrow I will post the next example to explain what I'm talking about.

Enviado desde St. Meeple Hospital

I don't give the same number of points to all castles. The two castles on the left got 4 points because of the completed road in their fief. The two on the right because of the completed castles in their fief.

And yes, a castle is a feature which can be claimed. And no, there is no contradiction. Adjacent is not key, castles score for the first completed feature in their fief. It is as simple as that...

Title: Re: Castle scoring with mayors
Post by: DrMeeple on January 04, 2021, 04:35:01 PM
But you give the same points to all the castles even the road is out of their fiefs. Then... Is a Castle a feature? First contradiction of basic rules begins...
The discussion about what is adjacent or what not is the key.
Tomorrow I will post the next example to explain what I'm talking about.

Enviado desde St. Meeple Hospital

I don't give the same number of points to all castles. The two castles on the left got 4 points because of the completed road in their fief. The two on the right because of the completed castles in their fief.

And yes, a castle is a feature which can be claimed. And no, there is no contradiction. Adjacent is not key, castles score for the first completed feature in their fief. It is as simple as that...
Castle is a feature? Where did you read that? Official rules?

Enviado desde St. Meeple Hospital

Title: Re: Castle scoring with mayors
Post by: Meepledrone on January 04, 2021, 05:22:49 PM
Excerpt of the Exp 8 rules:
Quote
Two or more incomplete castles may be standing next to each other. If one of them scores points, it will be considered as a completed feature for the adjacent castles
Title: Re: Castle scoring with mayors
Post by: DrMeeple on January 04, 2021, 05:31:05 PM


Excerpt of the Exp 8 rules:
Quote
Two or more incomplete castles may be standing next to each other. If one of them scores points, it will be considered as a completed feature for the adjacent castles

Next to each other... And what is that?
'it will be considered as a completed feature'
AS not IS
Seems here is an exception in the case 'next to' but they don't call Castle=feature always... Castle depends of a feature (road, city or monastery) to score.

Enviado desde St. Meeple Hospital

Title: Re: Castle scoring with mayors
Post by: Bumsakalaka on January 05, 2021, 12:45:20 AM
I read it that two castles share some adjaced tiles.
Look it as chain. One scores, second scores, third scores,...
Title: Re: Castle scoring with mayors
Post by: DrMeeple on January 05, 2021, 03:06:41 AM
Next example...  :yellow-meeple:

Eyeeple wants to close the road. How much would each score?

(https://i.imgur.com/ffkLBzY.jpg?1)

Second example...  :blue-meeple:

In this case the castles without meeples were not previously scored but simply didn’t place meeple (stupid movements but it is for the example)

(https://i.imgur.com/MYulhtZ.jpg?1)
Title: Re: Castle scoring with mayors
Post by: Carcassonne93 on January 05, 2021, 03:23:24 AM
The castle is a feature: https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/The_Goldmines#cite_ref-1 (it can receive gold ingots)
"the owner of the small city chooses to either score 4 points as normal, or to place a castle on that small city instead." If there is no owner, that city cannot be converted into a castle. So the second example is impossible, unless that meeple was removed by a festival.
"Two or more incomplete castles may be standing next to each other. If one of them scores points, it will be considered as a completed feature for the adjacent castles. All the castle owners receive the same number of points." "incomplete castles" seems to mean castles occupied by at least 1 meeple. So, if a castle does not contain a meeple, it means that it is completed.
First example: The castle that has 5 road tile in its area receives 6 points and the castle that it is placed on the tile with the bazaar and the FFOF tile receives 6 points.
Second example: The castle that has 5 road tile in its area receives 6 points and the castle that it is placed on the tile with the bazaar and the FFOF tile receives 6 points.
Title: Re: Castle scoring with mayors
Post by: Meepledrone on January 05, 2021, 03:24:47 AM


Excerpt of the Exp 8 rules:
Quote
Two or more incomplete castles may be standing next to each other. If one of them scores points, it will be considered as a completed feature for the adjacent castles

Next to each other... And what is that?
'it will be considered as a completed feature'
AS not IS
Seems here is an exception in the case 'next to' but they don't call Castle=feature always... Castle depends of a feature (road, city or monastery) to score.

Enviado desde St. Meeple Hospital



In the German rules, HiG uses the adverb "nebeneinander" with means "adjacent" or "next to each other" as ZMG translated. In Carcassonne terms, this refers to two castles in the vicinity of or neighboring each other.

A castle is a feature. "It will be considered as a completed feature" means that "it [a castle, that is a feature,] will be considered completed." Remember that a city (a feature) is converted into a castle (another type of feature).

In 2012, the interpretation of the rules about neighboring castles was the same as you can see on this short thread on BGG:
https://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/875697/castle-vicinity-castle (https://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/875697/castle-vicinity-castle)

What we are discussing here is the "chain reaction" castles can trigger when scoring, as mentioned in the thread.

It is key to understand what points a feature is worth vs. what points a figure can score. This relationship is 1-to-1 for all meeples except for mayors. If a mayor scores 0 points, that doesn't mean the feature is worth 0 points. The same as a castle can score points for an unoccupied feature, a castle can also score the same points if the feature was occupied by a mayor that cannot score the feature.

All in all, castles score points for one completed feature in their vicinity (including other castles). Castles see the points the features are worth. They don't pay attention to the points scored by the figures on those features, if occupied.
Title: Re: Castle scoring with mayors
Post by: Bumsakalaka on January 05, 2021, 03:25:14 AM
Well.
1st example:Every castle will scores 6 points for road
2nd example:Snake of 1st castle and Spider (if I see correct) on 2nd castle will scores 6 points - here chain stopeed, because 3rd castle is not occupied - it's allready consider as finished

Finaly stored, two different answers made during writing my comment ;-)
Title: Re: Castle scoring with mayors
Post by: Vital Pluymers on January 05, 2021, 03:29:47 AM
Example 2 like you described cannot happen. If you build a castle, then according to the rules you must place a meeple on it:
 
Quote

When you place a tile that completes a small city (a city consisting of only 2 semi-circular segments [6] [7]), the owner of the small city chooses to either score 4 points as normal, or to place a castle on that small city instead.

When the owner places a castle, cover the small city that was just completed with a castle from your supply, and place the meeple that was in the small city on top of the castle. [8] [9]

But let's just pretend for the sake of the point you want to make that these unoccupied castles were somehow completed in a previous turn, then only the two castles on the left score 6 points. A castle can only score points for the first feature that is completed in its fief. Since the first unoccupied castle from the left was already completed in a previous turn, it cannot be completed again this turn. The chain reaction stops right there since no other occupied castle has a completed feature in its fief.
Title: Re: Castle scoring with mayors
Post by: DrMeeple on January 05, 2021, 03:44:10 AM


Excerpt of the Exp 8 rules:
Quote
Two or more incomplete castles may be standing next to each other. If one of them scores points, it will be considered as a completed feature for the adjacent castles

Next to each other... And what is that?
'it will be considered as a completed feature'
AS not IS
Seems here is an exception in the case 'next to' but they don't call Castle=feature always... Castle depends of a feature (road, city or monastery) to score.

Enviado desde St. Meeple Hospital



In the German rules, HiG uses the adverb "nebeneinander" with means "adjacent" or "next to each other" as ZMG translated. In Carcassonne terms, this refers to two castles in the vicinity of or neighboring each other.

A castle is a feature. "It will be considered as a completed feature" means that "it [a castle, that is a feature,] will be considered completed." Remember that a city (a feature) is converted into a castle (another type of feature).

In 2012, the interpretation of the rules about neighboring castles was the same as you can see on this short thread on BGG:
https://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/875697/castle-vicinity-castle (https://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/875697/castle-vicinity-castle)

What we are discussing here is the "chain reaction" castles can trigger when scoring, as mentioned in the thread.

It is key to understand what points a feature is worth vs. what points a figure can score. This relationship is 1-to-1 for all meeples except for mayors. If a mayor scores 0 points, that doesn't mean the feature is worth 0 points. The same as a castle can score points for an unoccupied feature, a castle can also score the same points if the feature was occupied by a mayor that cannot score the feature.

All in all, castles score points for one completed feature in their vicinity (including other castles). Castles see the points the features are worth. They don't pay attention to the points scored by the figures on those features, if occupied.

It would be interesting if HiG clarifies whether when it says "nebeneinander" in the specific case of more than one nearby castle it is something literal or not. That is, on any of the 6 tiles or literally the castle glued next to each other.
Title: Re: Castle scoring with mayors
Post by: Meepledrone on January 05, 2021, 03:59:16 AM
A couple of images illustrating how the chain reaction is broken by the third castle from the left. The arrows indicate the feature(s) the castle may score the points for.

Example 1: the fief of the third castle does not overlap the second castle, so it cannot spread the chain reaction.
Example 2: the fief of the third castle does not overlap the second castle and it is already completed, so it cannot spread the chain reaction either.
Title: Re: Castle scoring with mayors
Post by: DrMeeple on January 05, 2021, 04:00:00 AM
‘So the second example is impossible, unless that meeple was removed by a festival.‘
Exactly. Obviously there are ways that I know of that situation.
The fact is that the sentence of the official rules if the German term is interpreted as in any of the 6 tiles, absurd ways of scoring could be given as the last examples that I have put. Which personally contradict the main rules of a castle and its 6 tiles.
If finally HiG really clarifies what it had in mind with that sentence (I think it would have been good to put an image in the official rules) and it is like that, it would be another example of the nonsense that it carries behind its back ... Like the new rules for the halflings, German castles or the C2 wagon ... Not being an official is going to make more sense.
And if in the end they literally wanted to say ‘next to’, that "chain reaction" it would be more difficult for it to happen and the game would be somewhat more balanced ...
Title: Re: Castle scoring with mayors
Post by: DrMeeple on January 05, 2021, 04:01:35 AM
A couple of images illustrating how the chin reaction is broken by the third castle from the left:

Example 1: the fief of the third castle does not overlap the second, so it cannot spread the chain reaction.
Example 2: the fief of the third castle does not overlap the second and it is already completed, so it cannot spread the chain reaction either.

That was my mistake... Imagine that there are overlap haha
Title: Re: Castle scoring with mayors
Post by: Bumsakalaka on January 05, 2021, 04:04:04 AM
A couple of images illustrating how the chin reaction is broken by the third castle from the left. The arrows indicate the feature(s) the castle may score the points for.

Example 1: the fief of the third castle does not overlap the second, so it cannot spread the chain reaction.
Example 2: the fief of the third castle does not overlap the second and it is already completed, so it cannot spread the chain reaction either.
I did't look to image seriously and I didn't figure that castle is rurned at 90°.
Title: Re: Castle scoring with mayors
Post by: DrMeeple on January 05, 2021, 04:12:10 AM
A couple of images illustrating how the chain reaction is broken by the third castle from the left. The arrows indicate the feature(s) the castle may score the points for.

Example 1: the fief of the third castle does not overlap the second castle, so it cannot spread the chain reaction.
Example 2: the fief of the third castle does not overlap the second castle and it is already completed, so it cannot spread the chain reaction either.

Now that I think about it ... I think you have opened the door to another discussion hahaha
Because yes, the castle is in the fief of the first ... And then there would be the question of what you base it on to say that a fief yes and another no when the official sentence doesn’t go beyond haha this is already speculation haha
Title: Re: Castle scoring with mayors
Post by: Vital Pluymers on January 05, 2021, 04:15:19 AM
‘So the second example is impossible, unless that meeple was removed by a festival.‘
Exactly. Obviously there are ways that I know of that situation.
The fact is that the sentence of the official rules if the German term is interpreted as in any of the 6 tiles, absurd ways of scoring could be given as the last examples that I have put. Which personally contradict the main rules of a castle and its 6 tiles.
If finally HiG really clarifies what it had in mind with that sentence (I think it would have been good to put an image in the official rules) and it is like that, it would be another example of the nonsense that it carries behind its back ... Like the new rules for the halflings, German castles or the C2 wagon ... Not being an official is going to make more sense.
And if in the end they literally wanted to say ‘next to’, that "chain reaction" it would be more difficult for it to happen and the game would be somewhat more balanced ...

In a real game, there will never be a lot of chain reactions anyway. In a real game it would be nearly impossible to place a line of castles in such a way that all of them fit in another castle's fief (as you have noticed yourself now when you were trying to compile the example). And even if it would happen in a real game, most of the castles would be completed already in previous turns to keep scores of the opponents low.

Title: Re: Castle scoring with mayors
Post by: Vital Pluymers on January 05, 2021, 04:16:22 AM
A couple of images illustrating how the chin reaction is broken by the third castle from the left. The arrows indicate the feature(s) the castle may score the points for.

Example 1: the fief of the third castle does not overlap the second, so it cannot spread the chain reaction.
Example 2: the fief of the third castle does not overlap the second and it is already completed, so it cannot spread the chain reaction either.
I did't look to image seriously and I didn't figure that castle is rurned at 90°.

I was too quick with my reply too  ;)
But Meepledrone's conclusion is correct.
Title: Re: Castle scoring with mayors
Post by: Vital Pluymers on January 05, 2021, 04:18:11 AM
A couple of images illustrating how the chain reaction is broken by the third castle from the left. The arrows indicate the feature(s) the castle may score the points for.

Example 1: the fief of the third castle does not overlap the second castle, so it cannot spread the chain reaction.
Example 2: the fief of the third castle does not overlap the second castle and it is already completed, so it cannot spread the chain reaction either.

Now that I think about it ... I think you have opened the door to another discussion hahaha
Because yes, the castle is in the fief of the first ... And then there would be the question of what you base it on to say that a fief yes and another no when the official sentence doesn’t go beyond haha this is already speculation haha

Dr. Meeple, as far as I can see, you are the only one with doubts...
Title: Re: Castle scoring with mayors
Post by: Bumsakalaka on January 05, 2021, 04:33:03 AM

I was too quick with my reply too  ;)
But Meepledrone's conclusion is correct.
[/quote]

Yes, but still didn't know is it will overlaps if chain will containus or not. I think yes. If not, it will be in rules, like stop of "tripple" turn for Builder.
Title: Re: Castle scoring with mayors
Post by: Vital Pluymers on January 05, 2021, 04:51:32 AM

I was too quick with my reply too  ;)
But Meepledrone's conclusion is correct.

Yes, but still didn't know is it will overlaps if chain will containus or not. I think yes. If not, it will be in rules, like stop of "tripple" turn for Builder.

Every castle is scored independently and only once for the first feature in its fief. So yes, all of them will be scored if they have a first completed feature in their fief.

The builder's power is a completely different thing as it can be activated turn after turn.
Title: Re: Castle scoring with mayors
Post by: DrMeeple on January 05, 2021, 05:07:50 AM
A couple of images illustrating how the chain reaction is broken by the third castle from the left. The arrows indicate the feature(s) the castle may score the points for.

Example 1: the fief of the third castle does not overlap the second castle, so it cannot spread the chain reaction.
Example 2: the fief of the third castle does not overlap the second castle and it is already completed, so it cannot spread the chain reaction either.

Now that I think about it ... I think you have opened the door to another discussion hahaha
Because yes, the castle is in the fief of the first ... And then there would be the question of what you base it on to say that a fief yes and another no when the official sentence doesn’t go beyond haha this is already speculation haha

Dr. Meeple, as far as I can see, you are the only one with doubts...

This will be fun: :D Tell me exactly where in the official rules published by HiG it talks about overlaps beyond the brief sentence that I have already commented.  :))
First you tell me that you interpret the sentence as any feature of the 6 tiles that surround a castle even another castle in those 6 tiles... But right now you say that only if the fiefs overlap then we apply it... And this... in what part have you read?  ;D
Even if the sentence of the rules is fulfilled as you interpret it, you add the concept of overlap :o
We began to open speculation to infinity and beyond hahaha ...
Title: Re: Castle scoring with mayors
Post by: Vital Pluymers on January 05, 2021, 05:28:46 AM
Meepledrone did not write that the fiefs should overlap.

Meepledrone has written that the fief should overlap the feature. In these examples the feature happens to be a castle.
That is just another way of saying that the feature should be located in the castle's fief as per the original rules.


This will be fun: :D
We began to open speculation to infinity and beyond hahaha ...

I think this summarizes the overall purpose of your discussion.
It seems that you just like to discuss, whether it contributes anything or not...
Title: Re: Castle scoring with mayors
Post by: corinthiens13 on January 05, 2021, 05:43:48 AM
Meepledrone did not write that the fiefs should overlap.

Meepledrone has written that the fief should overlap the feature. In these examples the feature happens to be a castle.
That is just another way of saying that the feature should be located in the castle's fief as per the original rules.


This will be fun: :D
We began to open speculation to infinity and beyond hahaha ...

I think this summarizes the overall purpose of your discussion.
It seems that you just like to discuss, whether it contributes anything or not...

With my understanding of the rules, I do totally agree with Meepledrone and Vital Pluymers :yellow-meeple:

And yes, the purpose of this discussion seems to be turning in circles. Even if the original questions were good ones, they've already been clarified but it seems the clarifications doesn't matter here  :(
Title: Re: Castle scoring with mayors
Post by: DrMeeple on January 05, 2021, 05:47:41 AM
Vital Pluymers, you were precisely the one who told me that everything is very clear. But I am talking about the official rules. For me something is very clear when the official rules are clear. When it isn’t, saying that everything is clear because we seek clarification ourselves or that everything fits is something else but it is not the same. Everything we can say may be the most logical thing in the world but it isn’t official. For example, the changes to some rules for C2 do not seem right to me and they are official ... Ultimately I can decide whether to apply them or not ...
From what I am seeing there are still many things about the rules that aren’t clear from the German language and that has caused many errors and diverse interpretations when translating them into English and paraphrasing things ... Although HiG I believe that in the official rules of many expansions not explained well ...
Title: Re: Castle scoring with mayors
Post by: DrMeeple on January 05, 2021, 05:49:35 AM
Meepledrone did not write that the fiefs should overlap.

Meepledrone has written that the fief should overlap the feature. In these examples the feature happens to be a castle.
That is just another way of saying that the feature should be located in the castle's fief as per the original rules.


This will be fun: :D
We began to open speculation to infinity and beyond hahaha ...

I think this summarizes the overall purpose of your discussion.
It seems that you just like to discuss, whether it contributes anything or not...

With my understanding of the rules, I do totally agree with Meepledrone and Vital Pluymers :yellow-meeple:

And yes, the purpose of this discussion seems to be turning in circles. Even if the original questions were good ones, they've already been clarified but it seems the clarifications doesn't matter here  :(

The question is what is the official text and what does HiG say.  :yellow-meeple:
Title: Re: Castle scoring with mayors
Post by: DrMeeple on January 05, 2021, 05:52:54 AM
If HiG doesn’t say anything official, the rest are logical assumptions that make sense but nothing more ...
Later it may happen that HiG corroborates these assumptions or not. In any case, as I say, you can decide to apply it or not.
Title: Re: Castle scoring with mayors
Post by: Meepledrone on January 10, 2021, 10:50:22 AM
Just a clarification on the points a castle receives...

Here you are a clarification by Christof Tisch of HiG on BGG from 8/2010:
https://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/558260/article/5453859#5453859 (https://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/558260/article/5453859#5453859)

Quote
As a castle owner you also get points for a completed feature (no farm), if nobody scores this completed feature. So the points for the castle do not depend on the points someone gets when a completed feature is scored.

This confirms that, when scoring a castle, you should pay attention to the points completed features are worth, no matter if they are occupied or not. Points scored by figures on the completed feature, if occupied, are irrelevant (like in the case of a mayor in a castle or a city with no coats of arms).
Title: Re: Castle scoring with mayors
Post by: Bumsakalaka on January 11, 2021, 12:35:01 AM
I think it will be good to change wikicarpedia with special section in all of rules with Official rules clarification, which are in footnotes to separate regular paragraph.
For wiki style of pages, footnotes are used only for citations. Here on wikicarpedia are used also for special comments.
Some of them are "not prooved" some are official.
Those official can be added to special part and then became a regular part of rules (like interactions with other rules in official rules for large expansions).
Title: Re: Castle scoring with mayors
Post by: Meepledrone on January 11, 2021, 08:52:54 AM
This is an ongoing debate in my head. There are:
- Clarifications to the basis main text, maintained as footnotes. From time to time, an paragraph is included or reworded if the rules in English omitted or mistranslated something.
- Clarifications about interactions included in C1 as footnotes, but in C2 promoted to a new section in the main text especially in major expansions.
- Long clarifications in C1 promoted to full section in the CAR, and kept the same way in WICA.
- Clarifications about ruleset changes or mistranslations affecting certain publishers, so they are not required for all languages.

So the issue is how to combine it all. We need a way to convey all the information in a way that is simple to read for the newbie (we do not scare him/her away with an information overload) but can satisfy the expert player that wants to check all the info structured in one place.

Another problem I'd like to address is assigning unique identifiers (with an addressable link) to clarifications, so you can reference them in discussions. This IDs would also allow you to cross reference the CAR v7.4, or even existing clarifications on other sources (CarcC, CarcF, BGG...) Footnotes can be easily referenced, but what about clarifications embedded into the main text? 

Pondering all this, I did some tests about moving the clarifications to the main text as aside boxes. They were okay on desktop but it was making pages very long on mobile. Most of WICA users are using a mobile so it was not very recommendable.
* Base Game - Test with additional sections:
https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Base_Game_-_Test_Inline (https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Base_Game_-_Test_Inline)
* The Abbot - Test with additional sections:
https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/The_Abbot_-_Test (https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/The_Abbot_-_Test)
* The Messages - Test with additional sections:
https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/New_Messages_-_Test (https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/New_Messages_-_Test)
I revisit the topic from time to time to see if I get new ideas coming back with fresh eyes.

On the other hand, the mobile view uses a drawer panel to display footnotes, so it is not so bad after all to keep footnotes. The only issue: images in footnotes are not preloaded until you scroll down to the very end of the page. I couldn't find a way to avoid this so far.

And then we have the final issue: printing to PDF. How to combine all this with a compact view when printing/saving a page to PDF. Combining a flexible layout for desktop and mobile along with a compact layout with precise positioning may require a massive rework translators may not be very happy about. 

So here I am at a crossroads... Trying to square the circle when not busy with any new content for WICA
Title: Re: Castle scoring with mayors
Post by: Bumsakalaka on January 12, 2021, 01:41:57 AM
I like it.
I have two suggestions:

1. Question / Answer section:
I knows history of this, but reader which doesn't know, that you are sending questions to HiG and received answer for rules clarification can be confused.

Maybe it will be good to name is as it is.

Rules Clarification: Is bla blabla? (in darker header)
Yes bla bla bla (in ligher body)

2. Combination with other expansions:
Why not to add expansions selector to all rules pages and shows only those rules which expansions are selected?
This change will be helpfull for beginners which have for example only basic game and one/or few exapnsions, but also for experts with most of expansions.

PS: How long is set cookie timelife for expansions selection now? (PS: Good to store all previous code, git is my everyday tool, and Eclipse with local history of changes (but it stores only one max two days changes) ;-)
Title: Re: Castle scoring with mayors
Post by: Meepledrone on January 12, 2021, 02:01:10 AM
I like it.
I have two suggestions:

1. Question / Answer section:
I knows history of this, but reader which doesn't know, that you are sending questions to HiG and received answer for rules clarification can be confused.

Maybe it will be good to name is as it is.

Rules Clarification: Is bla blabla? (in darker header)
Yes bla bla bla (in ligher body)

Grey FAQ boxes is another attempt to move clarifications from footnotes to the main text within their context.

2. Combination with other expansions:
Why not to add expansions selector to all rules pages and shows only those rules which expansions are selected?
This change will be helpfull for beginners which have for example only basic game and one/or few exapnsions, but also for experts with most of expansions.

Ha ha ha! That could be an overkill. It would be better to have a page with all the interactions combined and then select what you need. Just thinking out loud here.

PS: How long is set cookie timelife for expansions selection now? (PS: Good to store all previous code, git is my everyday tool, and Eclipse with local history of changes (but it stores only one max two days changes) ;-)

We are using session cookies. They don't have a fixed expiration date. If your session dies, the selection goes away with it.

I think I'll split this part of the topic and merge it with the topic about suggestions for WICA.