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Carc Central Community => Official Rules => Topic started by: Meepledrone on December 10, 2020, 12:42:07 PM

Title: Clarification of rules (abbot, Spiel tiles, peasant revolts) - with HiG - 24 11 2020
Post by: Meepledrone on December 10, 2020, 12:42:07 PM
Hi all,

I had a brief exchange with Andreas Kramer of HiG about some rules questions. I started a dialog about Peasant Revolts and some other issues but it was interrupted due to the Advent Sale 2020. I will summarize the answers I got so far.

Following Kettlefish's tradition...

Question in BLUE

Answer in GREEN

Still open in RED

My own comments in  MAROON

Cheers!
Title: Re: Clarification of rules (abbot, Spiel tiles, peasant revolts) - with HiG - 24 11 2020
Post by: Meepledrone on December 10, 2020, 12:56:40 PM
Spiel'16 promo tile

(https://wikicarpedia.com/images/a/a8/EssenSpiel_2016.png)

[Q1.] Is the green patch in the middle of this tile a field?

[A1.] The green patch of the Spiel’16 tile was meant as a decoration.

This means the green patch wasn't meant to be a proper field where you could place a farmer or a shepherd.
Title: Re: Clarification of rules (abbot, Spiel tiles, peasant revolts) - with HiG - 24 11 2020
Post by: Meepledrone on December 10, 2020, 01:01:40 PM
Spiel'19 promo tile

(https://wikicarpedia.com/images/7/7d/Spiel_2019_C2_Tile_01.png)

[Q2.] Does the bridge connect the two city segments on this tile?

[A2.] The bridge connect the two city segments to one city.

The tile behaves like a regular CCCF such as this one:

(https://wikicarpedia.com/images/1/14/Base_Game_C2_Tile_R.jpg)
Title: Re: Clarification of rules (abbot, Spiel tiles, peasant revolts) - with HiG - 24 11 2020
Post by: Drodo on December 10, 2020, 01:17:15 PM
Ha! I knew it. Now I don't feel bad for not having any of the 2014-2019 Spiel tiles, none of them are unique or special. Only the 2020 one is.
Title: Re: Clarification of rules (abbot, Spiel tiles, peasant revolts) - with HiG - 24 11 2020
Post by: Meepledrone on December 10, 2020, 01:37:07 PM
Removing the abbot

(https://i.imgur.com/Wts53DU.jpg)

[Q3] Red just placed a tile that completes a garden with his abbot.
Can Red remove the abbot and score it in 2. Placing a meeple in this case before the garden is scored?
The rules don't include any restrictions about this case.

Note: This would be an interesting option, for example, if the tile just placed is a dragon tile, so the dragon is about to move and probably eat the abbot.

(https://i.imgur.com/FvbYByT.jpg)

[A3] Red can only score the abbot before the monastery (or garden) is completely surrounded by tiles (after placing a tile and after he may decide to quit placing a meeple in 2. Placing a meeple). You always score the abbot (on the feature) never the feature itself.

So, you can only score the abbot on a garden or a monastery during 2. Placing a meeple if the feature is incomplete (that is, when it is not completely surrounded by tiles at that point).

Once the monastery or garden is completed, you cannot score your abbot. So you can only score the feature it is placed on in  3. Scoring a feature. This means, the Red abbot will not be able to escape the dragon by being scored (see second image on this post above).

Title: Re: Clarification of rules (abbot, Spiel tiles, peasant revolts) - with HiG - 24 11 2020
Post by: Bumsakalaka on December 10, 2020, 01:42:48 PM
Depends how many player play game. When two you can escape :)

Odoslané z SM-A202F pomocou Tapatalku

Title: Re: Clarification of rules (abbot, Spiel tiles, peasant revolts) - with HiG - 24 11 2020
Post by: Meepledrone on December 10, 2020, 01:49:38 PM
OK. I updated the wording to indicate the abbot cannot be scored to escape the dragon...  ;)
Title: Re: Clarification of rules (abbot, Spiel tiles, peasant revolts) - with HiG - 24 11 2020
Post by: Meepledrone on December 10, 2020, 03:40:54 PM
The Peasant Revolts

[Q4.1] When does a meeple lose its protection against peasant revolts?
a) When the feature is scored (the meeple is still on the board)
b) When the meeple is placed in the player's supply

The German rules say: "Ein geschützer Meeple zählt bei der Wertung eines Gebietes wie ein ganz normaler Meeple. Du holst ihn nach der Wertung wie üblich in den Vorrat zurück. Dabei verliert dieser Meeple seinen Schutz vor Aufständen.
Wenn du ihn erneut einsetzt, ist er also dann wieder ungeschützt."

The English rules say: "When scoring a feature, a protected meeple is treated like a normal meeple. It is returned into your supply after the feature has been scored. After that, it loses its protection from peasant revolts.
This means that if you place that meeple again, it is unprotected once again."

[A4.1] A meeple loses its protection in the moment when you take the meeple back in your supply.



[Q4.2] So, should we consider a protected wagon still protected if moved to another feature after scoring?

[A4.2] I think in that special case of the wagon you can consider, yes, that the wagon keeps the protection after moving.



[Q4.3] I assume in this case that you should keep the wagon's protection until it returns to the player's supply. Even it is placed on features that can't be affected by a peasant's revolt.
Is this correct?

[A4.3] Yes, you can do so. The rules are always be made for the base game. We haven't given any thought to all of the (mini)-expansions and the special cases yet.



[Q4.4] Additionally, I would assume you can also protect meeples placed during your turn for 4 points too:
* Exp. 7 - The Catapult: when exchanging a meeple with a Seduction Token (the protected meeples keep their protection when swapped).
* Mini #7 - Crop Circles: when placing a meeple with a crop circle
* The Phantom: when placing a phantom
* La Porxada: when  exchanging a meeple with La Porxada
Is this correct?

[A4.4] I think you can do so. There is nothing in my mind what would say no.

There are some dark corners I would like to explore in more detail, since the rules have been not tested past the base game.

For the time being we can do the following:
* Maintain the protection for a wagon being moved, even if it is placed on a feature not affected by peasant revolts. The protected state would be maintained until the wagon returns to its owner's supply.
* Protect any meeple being placed on a feature affected by a peasant revolts. This would cover wooden meeples and phantoms placed...
   - directly
   - with a flying machine
   - with a magic portal
   - with a crop circle
   - during a meeple exchange due to a Seduction token
   - during a meeple exchange granted by La Porxada

I skipped asking about deploying meeples from the city of Carcassonne, since they will be scored automatically.



EDIT: Later clarifications indicate that these actions are only available to the active player.

See the thread with more clarifications here: http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=5015.0 (http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=5015.0)
Title: Re: Clarification of rules (abbot, Spiel tiles, peasant revolts) - with HiG - 24 11 2020
Post by: Carcassonne93 on December 12, 2020, 04:53:20 PM
Tanners quarter during the game, wagon movement after (when placed in castle) and ringmaster bonus (when placed in castle)?
Title: Re: Clarification of rules (abbot, Spiel tiles, peasant revolts) - with HiG - 24 11 2020
Post by: Meepledrone on December 12, 2020, 05:22:04 PM
They are part of my 40+ list of questions (don't tell anybody :o), excluding those that may involve interactions between mini-expansions that may never have an answer... I even prepared images for each question. I'll review the list again to keep it as simple as possible.

So I just tested the water with 4 of them,... and the Peasant Revolts got complicated, so they forwarded me to a new person who never replied... Actually, I'm still waiting for a reply to a few questions I sent them back in December 2019  >:D

I'll try again... Looking for the right moment that may suit them...  :'(
Title: Re: Clarification of rules (abbot, Spiel tiles, peasant revolts) - with HiG - 24 11 2020
Post by: Carcassonne93 on December 26, 2020, 01:17:17 AM
Can you protect your unprotected wagon if you move it on other feature?
Title: Re: Clarification of rules (abbot, Spiel tiles, peasant revolts) - with HiG - 24 11 2020
Post by: Carcassonne93 on December 26, 2020, 01:56:01 AM
How can you prove that this clarifications are official? Also, if these are official, some clarifications should be added at https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Carcassonne_Order_of_Play (you can protect a meeple placed by you with a crop circle etc.) https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/The_Peasant_Revolts etc.
Title: Re: Clarification of rules (abbot, Spiel tiles, peasant revolts) - with HiG - 24 11 2020
Post by: Meepledrone on December 26, 2020, 02:49:33 AM
Can you protect your unprotected wagon if you move it on other feature?

As per the partial clarifications I got, it seems so.
Title: Re: Clarification of rules (abbot, Spiel tiles, peasant revolts) - with HiG - 24 11 2020
Post by: Meepledrone on December 26, 2020, 03:00:27 AM
How can you prove that this clarifications are official? Also, if these are official, some clarifications should be added at https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Carcassonne_Order_of_Play (you can protect a meeple placed by you with a crop circle etc.) https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/The_Peasant_Revolts etc.

I can share with you the full exchange of emails. I have quarantined some parts (especially those were Andreas was more hesitant) and haven't incorporated them to WICA yet. Since Andreas was pressed by time because of the Advent Sale, he sent the questions to Christof Tisch, the person who creates the rulebooks, for confirmation. So I'm waiting for Christof's answer.

In the meantime, I sent them both another small batch of questions, but I'm still waiting for their answer to them too.
Title: Re: Clarification of rules (abbot, Spiel tiles, peasant revolts) - with HiG - 24 11 2020
Post by: Carcassonne93 on December 26, 2020, 03:58:29 AM
During step 4A, all players can protect their just placed meeple or only the active player?
Title: Re: Clarification of rules (abbot, Spiel tiles, peasant revolts) - with HiG - 24 11 2020
Post by: Carcassonne93 on December 26, 2020, 04:05:52 AM
Can you protect your unprotected wagon if you move it on other feature?

As per the partial clarifications I got, it seems so.

That means that you can protect a meeple possessed by you (not phantom) in 2B-1 (4 points or 2 points), your phantom in 2B-2 (4 points), your unprotected wagon if you move it on other feature (city, road, monastery, German cathedral, German castle etc.) in 3B (4 points) and (all players) your just placed meeple during 4A (4 points)?
Title: Re: Clarification of rules (abbot, Spiel tiles, peasant revolts) - with HiG - 24 11 2020
Post by: Carcassonne93 on December 26, 2020, 04:42:10 AM
An unprotected wagon can be protected if it is moved on a feature that is not a city, road or monastic building during 3B?
Title: Re: Clarification of rules (abbot, Spiel tiles, peasant revolts) - with HiG - 24 11 2020
Post by: Meepledrone on December 26, 2020, 05:59:34 AM
As per Andreas's response, the wagon can keep its protected status until it returns back to its owner's supply, no matter the features it may be placed on. Taking in consideration all his comments about other placement methods, that would mean the following:
* You can move the wagon to features not affected by peasant revolts while keeping its protection (Step 3B, when moved).
* You should be able to protect a wagon when placed on any feature, in preparation for any future movement of the wagon (Step 2B-1, when already placed or when just placed)

However, protecting a wagon in Step 3B before being moved was not discussed in depth, the same as other actions came into the discussion, as you can see from his answer. He forwarded the questions to Christof Tisch but I don't have any feedback yet.

The meeple protection actions belong naturally in 2. Placing a meeple for the active player. Allowing players to apply the protection to any placement / movement / exchange happening in other phases seems awkward, especially when it would benefit players other than the active one:
* 1. Placing a tile : the meeple swap with La Porxada may affect the current player and another one.
* 3. Scoring a feature: moving a wagon may affect players other than the active one
* 4. Additional actions: the meeple swap granted by the Seduction token and the meeple placement granted by Crop Circles may affect players other than the active one.

As indicated above, it wasn't discussed in depth so I would wait for a conclusion to this topic. Not all the implications were taken into consideration and therefore the answer.

In any case, I would say no, since you should be the active player to perform any of these actions in the right moment of your turn. From a gameplay point of view, it seems also more interesting: players may have to face extraordinary meeple placements that would require the protection actions. So there is a trade-off there and certain periods of uncertainty for those meeples.

EDIT: Added final conclusion
Title: Re: Clarification of rules (abbot, Spiel tiles, peasant revolts) - with HiG - 24 11 2020
Post by: Carcassonne93 on January 04, 2021, 06:37:05 PM
However, protecting a wagon in Step 3B before being moved was not discussed in depth, the same as other actions came into the discussion, as you can see from his answer. He forwarded the questions to Christof Tisch but I don't have any feedback yet.
Not all the implications were taken into consideration and therefore the answer.

That means that per moment (temporary, until complete answers), the players should ignore these clarifications?
Title: Re: Clarification of rules (abbot, Spiel tiles, peasant revolts) - with HiG - 24 11 2020
Post by: Meepledrone on January 05, 2021, 06:55:40 AM
I'm keeping the last part of the clarifications quarantined for the time being...

The comments about protecting meeples in any special placement, if they weren't already, seems a bit odd to me. Allowing all the players to protect their meeples while placing them via a crop circle, when moving an unprotected wagon or when swapping meeples, feels like cutting corners to me for the active player and especially for other players.

For example, in the case of the wagon, you delay your decision to protect your wagon but you don't have to sacrifice a meeple placement (or figure/token placement) during tour turn to get your wagon protected as it would be required for another meeple. You of course have to pay, but 4 points for placing your wagon on a new feature or 2 points because it was already placed? If you allow other players to do the same, you are making everyone's life easier, since everybody can do more without sacrificing the required actions in 2. Placing a meeple.

So I still see some open issues here that need clarification after some pondering.

Do you think I'm being too purist here?
Title: Re: Clarification of rules (abbot, Spiel tiles, peasant revolts) - with HiG - 24 11 2020
Post by: corinthiens13 on January 05, 2021, 07:03:28 AM
I'm keeping the last part of the clarifications quarantined for the time being...

The comments about protecting meeples in any special placement, if they weren't already, seems a bit odd to me. Allowing all the players to protect their meeples while placing them via a crop circle, when moving an unprotected wagon or when swapping meeples, feels like cutting corners to me for the active player and especially for other players.

For example, in the case of the wagon, you delay your decision to protect your wagon but you don't have to sacrifice a meeple placement (or figure/token placement) during tour turn to get your wagon protected as it would be required for another meeple. You of course have to pay, but 4 points for placing your wagon on a new feature or 2 points because it was already placed? If you allow other players to do the same, you are making everyone's life easier, since everybody can do more without sacrificing the required actions in 2. Placing a meeple.

So I still see some open issues here that need clarification after some pondering.

Do you think I'm being too purist here?

I aggree with you.

As long as we do not get clarifications from HiG, I'd apply:
Title: Re: Clarification of rules (abbot, Spiel tiles, peasant revolts) - with HiG - 24 11 2020
Post by: Vital Pluymers on January 05, 2021, 08:00:19 AM
I'm keeping the last part of the clarifications quarantined for the time being...

The comments about protecting meeples in any special placement, if they weren't already, seems a bit odd to me. Allowing all the players to protect their meeples while placing them via a crop circle, when moving an unprotected wagon or when swapping meeples, feels like cutting corners to me for the active player and especially for other players.

For example, in the case of the wagon, you delay your decision to protect your wagon but you don't have to sacrifice a meeple placement (or figure/token placement) during tour turn to get your wagon protected as it would be required for another meeple. You of course have to pay, but 4 points for placing your wagon on a new feature or 2 points because it was already placed? If you allow other players to do the same, you are making everyone's life easier, since everybody can do more without sacrificing the required actions in 2. Placing a meeple.

So I still see some open issues here that need clarification after some pondering.

Do you think I'm being too purist here?

I aggree with you.

As long as we do not get clarifications from HiG, I'd apply:
  • You can protect a meeple on a feature affected by peasant revolt for 2 points insted of placing a meeple in step 2b1 only
  • You can protect the meeple that has just been placed on a feature affected by peasant revolt in step 2 (b1 or b2) only, for 4 points
  • A protected meeple remain protected as long as it doesn't go back to a player supply

I agree as well
Just intuitively this seems to be the only right conclusion with the info we have.
Title: Re: Clarification of rules (abbot, Spiel tiles, peasant revolts) - with HiG - 24 11 2020
Post by: DrMeeple on January 05, 2021, 10:59:15 AM
Removing the abbot

(https://i.imgur.com/Wts53DU.jpg)

[Q3] Red just placed a tile that completes a garden with his abbot.
Can Red remove the abbot and score it in 2. Placing a meeple in this case before the garden is scored?
The rules don't include any restrictions about this case.

Note: This would be an interesting option, for example, if the tile just placed is a dragon tile, so the dragon is about to move and probably eat the abbot.

(https://i.imgur.com/FvbYByT.jpg)

[A3] Red can only score the abbot before the monastery (or garden) is completely surrounded by tiles (after placing a tile and after he may decide to quit placing a meeple in 2. Placing a meeple). You always score the abbot (on the feature) never the feature itself.

So, you can only score the abbot on a garden or a monastery during 2. Placing a meeple if the feature is incomplete (that is, when it is not completely surrounded by tiles at that point).

Once the monastery or garden is completed, you cannot score your abbot. So you can only score the feature it is placed on in  3. Scoring a feature. This means, the Red abbot will not be able to escape the dragon by being scored (see second image on this post above).

I was reviewing and reading this just say that if you have played on the HiG approved digital asmodee platform to carcassonne with the abbot you can rate a garden automatically when it is surrounded by 8 tiles like a monastery. If someone has a carcassonne account in asmodee digital and is interested in playing with the P&D and the abbot who sends me a PM because I have it, so you can see the order and how HiG has determined it for the digital platform. I haven’t played on the asmodee platform with both expansions at the same time ... I understand that HiG applies the official rules I don’t think they change the rules from physical to digital ...


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Title: Re: Clarification of rules (abbot, Spiel tiles, peasant revolts) - with HiG - 24 11 2020
Post by: DrMeeple on January 05, 2021, 11:01:36 AM
I'm keeping the last part of the clarifications quarantined for the time being...

The comments about protecting meeples in any special placement, if they weren't already, seems a bit odd to me. Allowing all the players to protect their meeples while placing them via a crop circle, when moving an unprotected wagon or when swapping meeples, feels like cutting corners to me for the active player and especially for other players.

For example, in the case of the wagon, you delay your decision to protect your wagon but you don't have to sacrifice a meeple placement (or figure/token placement) during tour turn to get your wagon protected as it would be required for another meeple. You of course have to pay, but 4 points for placing your wagon on a new feature or 2 points because it was already placed? If you allow other players to do the same, you are making everyone's life easier, since everybody can do more without sacrificing the required actions in 2. Placing a meeple.

So I still see some open issues here that need clarification after some pondering.

Do you think I'm being too purist here?
Makes sense. Surely much better than possible future HiG clarifications (if they answer anything)


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