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Carc Central Community => Unofficial Rules => Topic started by: Meepledrone on November 20, 2020, 03:31:15 PM

Title: The Peasant Revolts interactions with other expansions
Post by: Meepledrone on November 20, 2020, 03:31:15 PM
You can find the basic version of the rules in WICA here:
https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/The_Peasant_Revolts (https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/The_Peasant_Revolts)

I'll start working on the interactions now. Some ideas from the top of my head:

* 1. Placing a Tile - Revolt actions:
   - Happen in Step 1B, so will happen even if the tile cannot be placed (already annotated in WICA)
   - Affect a number of features:
     - Eligible features: roads (and bridges or labyrinths), cities and all monastic buildings (for the sake of consistency)
     - Non-eligible features:
       - Regular features: fields, acrobat spaces, German castles, Baba Yaga´s Hut, German cathedrals, gardens, fortune teller tents
       - Special areas: tower pieces, Exp. 8 castles, Wheel of Fortune, city of Carcassonne, city of Leipzig,  batthouses, Solovei Razboynik tree, Vodyanoy lake,  ...
   - Generate a new scoring event in the same scoring round as the Wheel of Fortune
   - May trigger Messages

* 2. Placing a Meeple - Protecting meeples:
   - Step 2B-1 & 2B-2: Any meeple placed on the eligible features can be protected (yoy pay 4 points).
     - This can be a direct placement or via a magic portal or a flying machine.
     - Meeples placed on a special monastery may need an additional marker due to the ambiguity
   - Step 2B-1: If a meeple is not placed in this step (therefore, no other action in this step takes place), an unprotected meeple already placed on an eligible feature can be protected (you pay 2 points)
   - Step 2B-2: You can place your phantom even if you protected a meeple placed on another tile in Step 2B-2
  Protected meeples can perform any actions normally:
   - Step 2B-1: A protected abbot can be removed and scored
   - Step 2C: A protected meeple can harvest and sell fruit
 
* 3. Scoring a meeple:
  - A protected knight in a small city converted in to a castle, will become unprotected when placed in a castle. (Castles are not cities)
  - A protected wagon: will become unprotected after scoring if moved to another feature? Wording suggests that meeples become unprotected when back into their owner's supply (Open question)
  -  Meeples redeployed cannot be protected (they are deployed and scored right away)

Anything you may want to be clarified?

EDIT: Reviewed wording about the movement of the wagon.
Title: Re: Re: New mini expansion Carcassonne - The Peasant Revolts on cundco.de
Post by: Drodo on November 20, 2020, 06:44:12 PM
I don't think the Wagon would become unprotected after scoring. If it can be moved to another feature, it just moves like that. It does not go back to the player's hand, and it does not take part in the "Place a follower" step of that turn.
Title: Re: Re: New mini expansion Carcassonne - The Peasant Revolts on cundco.de
Post by: Carcassonne93 on November 21, 2020, 06:01:35 AM
If you have 2 protected meeples, you can receive 2 points and 2 points or 4 points (it is important for messages and robbers). It should be 4 (like the Big Top). Also, I think that the wagon is still protected if you move it; the protection ends if it is returned to your supply.
Title: Re: Re: New mini expansion Carcassonne - The Peasant Revolts on cundco.de
Post by: Meepledrone on November 21, 2020, 07:04:31 AM
Hi Drodo,

I was pondering both options (even as possible variants in the worst case scenario):

A) Wagons maintain their protection if moving after scoring: This is a more advantageous approach for wagons, but the protection is lost if it's moved to a feature other than a road, a city or a monastic building. This option would boost the interest for the wagon in games with this expansion.

B) The protection is lost after each scoring: This is the most conservative approach. You have to pay points for every feature your wagon occupies. This would match the original rules.

Option A) seems very interesting as it assumes that protection is lost when the wagon moves to a feature that is not affected by peasant revolts or the wagon is sent back to its owner's supply. It

Option B) is more strict. It assumes that the protection is over after each scoring. In this case, the sequence in the rules shouldn't be assumed as written on stone. So stressing that the the meeples once in the supply become unprotected, would be a poetic license, so to speak.

I sent a question to HiG to confirm what option was the intended one. They won't confirm or deny anything regarding interactions with other expansions, so no direct question about this can be asked... Just about the intended meaning of the wording. I cross my fingers.

Cheers!
Title: Re: Re: New mini expansion Carcassonne - The Peasant Revolts on cundco.de
Post by: Meepledrone on November 21, 2020, 07:06:24 AM
If you have 2 protected meeples, you can receive 2 points and 2 points or 4 points (it is important for messages and robbers). It should be 4 (like the Big Top).

Ha ha ha! I knew you would be concerned about this nuance. (I included this in my notes above.)

Check Example 2 here: https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/The_Peasant_Revolts#2._Placing_a_meeple (https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/The_Peasant_Revolts#2._Placing_a_meeple)

As you can see Red scores 4 points for 2 protected meeples placed in different cities. So each player scores as one scoring event all the points associated to peasant revolts. 

Also, I think that the wagon is still protected if you move it; the protection ends if it is returned to your supply.

I've been re-reading this section in English and German and the wording seems to closer to the meeples becoming unprotected when they are back into their owner's supply.

I sent a question to HiG just to confirm the original intent. Hope they reply eventually...
Title: Re: Re: New mini expansion Carcassonne - The Peasant Revolts on cundco.de
Post by: Gagoune on November 22, 2020, 01:48:48 AM
Thanks meepledrone for the WiCa page ! (+1 merit)

I've translated it in french... I'll do a pdf if the french publisher (Asmodee) does not decide to edit it !  :))
Title: Re: Re: New mini expansion Carcassonne - The Peasant Revolts on cundco.de
Post by: Bumsakalaka on November 22, 2020, 01:55:30 AM
Messages: Negative points to get message. Cool I didn't realize this!
So combination of this new expansion with messages can be powerfull to get extra point in MegaCarcassone

Odoslané z SM-A202F pomocou Tapatalku

Title: Re: Re: New mini expansion Carcassonne - The Peasant Revolts on cundco.de
Post by: Meepledrone on November 22, 2020, 03:54:19 AM
Messages: Negative points to get message. Cool I didn't realize this!
So combination of this new expansion with messages can be powerfull to get extra point in MegaCarcassone

Odoslané z SM-A202F pomocou Tapatalku

Be careful! You can only receive a message when scoring (positive) points during your turn. If any of your scoring figures moves backwards (scoring minus points due to some payment) and lands on a dark space, you won't receive a message.

You may revisit the rules here:
https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/The_Messages (https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/The_Messages)

Title: Re: Re: New mini expansion Carcassonne - The Peasant Revolts on cundco.de
Post by: tp10053 on November 22, 2020, 09:48:15 AM
Yes, negative points can't get you a message, but they are still a good combo. You can get your scoring meeple into a position to get message in subsequent scoring. The worst case scenario - you get the 2 point back through the seal.
Title: Re: Re: New mini expansion Carcassonne - The Peasant Revolts on cundco.de
Post by: Bumsakalaka on November 22, 2020, 11:27:22 AM
Messages: Negative points to get message. Cool I didn't realize this!
So combination of this new expansion with messages can be powerfull to get extra point in MegaCarcassone

Odoslané z SM-A202F pomocou Tapatalku

Be careful! You can only receive a message when scoring (positive) points during your turn. If any of your scoring figures moves backwards (scoring minus points due to some payment) and lands on a dark space, you won't receive a message.

You may revisit the rules here:
https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/The_Messages (https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/The_Messages)



Right, thanks.

Yes, negative points can't get you a message, but they are still a good combo. You can get your scoring meeple into a position to get message in subsequent scoring. The worst case scenario - you get the 2 point back through the seal.

Do you think scenario, that you place tile, and without placing meeple, and you finish for example road and get 3 points?

If you have meeple on scoring board on position 5k+4 so you will go forward to 5(k+1)+2, so you don't get message.
But if you choose protect any meeple on board (because you don't place any meeple in Place Wood phase), your scoring meeple will be moved backward from 5k+4 to 5k+2 and then you get 3 points, so meeple will move to 5(k+1) position = dark space on scoring board position and you get message.
Hmm, good strategy. And as you said, you miss nothing, because you get minimum 2 points and your meeple will be at least on 5(k+1)+2 position.
So math explenation of your 2 sentenses ;-)
Title: Re: Re: New mini expansion Carcassonne - The Peasant Revolts on cundco.de
Post by: tp10053 on November 22, 2020, 01:44:07 PM
Yes, exactly what I meant  ;)

Not only do you "not lose anything", you gain 1 protected meeple with extra scoring potential.
Title: Re: Re: New mini expansion Carcassonne - The Peasant Revolts on cundco.de
Post by: Bumsakalaka on November 22, 2020, 09:49:39 PM
Yes, exactly what I meant  ;)

Not only do you "not lose anything", you gain 1 protected meeple with extra scoring potential.
Indeed ;-)
Title: Re: Re: New mini expansion Carcassonne - The Peasant Revolts on cundco.de
Post by: corinthiens13 on November 23, 2020, 05:37:48 AM
Two questions about the order of play. I know there isn't gonna be any official clarification, but what do you think?

When should the revolt take place when combined with the wheel of fortune, directly before or directly after the WoF action ?

Also, when combined with the plague, I guess we may place a flea token before the revolt? In some scenarios, that could remove our only unprotected meeple to make the revolt pass on to the next player   >:D
Title: Re: Re: New mini expansion Carcassonne - The Peasant Revolts on cundco.de
Post by: corinthiens13 on November 23, 2020, 05:42:12 AM
Oh, I forgot one: Can we protect a phantom, when placing it (4 points) and / or during a following turn (2 points)?

I don't know when placing it, but I'd suggest it's possible in a following turn (2 points).
Title: Re: Re: New mini expansion Carcassonne - The Peasant Revolts on cundco.de
Post by: Carcassonne0123 on November 23, 2020, 06:14:56 AM
To be honest I am not to bothered on missing out on this, it looks similar to Crop Circles.
Title: Re: Re: New mini expansion Carcassonne - The Peasant Revolts on cundco.de
Post by: tp10053 on November 23, 2020, 06:49:29 AM
Really? I don't see any real similarities.
Title: Re: Re: New mini expansion Carcassonne - The Peasant Revolts on cundco.de
Post by: Carcassonne0123 on November 23, 2020, 09:15:02 AM
For me it’s similar as they both involve taking off meeples from specific features. With Crop Circles you either put of take off a meeple. With this you either protect or take off a meeple
Title: Re: Re: New mini expansion Carcassonne - The Peasant Revolts on cundco.de
Post by: Bumsakalaka on November 23, 2020, 09:43:44 AM
Well. I see big different between crop circles and peasent revolts.
1. In peasant revold you have removed all of your unprotected meeples when you get it's tile +- it's destructive because you use your earned points for protection of possible thread
2. In crop circles you can choose scenario in which you can benefit - you can add meeple to board and support your existing meeples or you can remove meeples from board, which can be also benefit, for example non scoring farmer from big field where you don't have majority and you can earn with them points on upcoming finished features.

I think this new expansion will be one of most non played mini expansion in our collections ;-(
Title: Re: Re: New mini expansion Carcassonne - The Peasant Revolts on cundco.de
Post by: Meepledrone on November 23, 2020, 10:01:34 AM
Two questions about the order of play. I know there isn't gonna be any official clarification, but what do you think?

Really?   ;) ;) ;)

When should the revolt take place when combined with the wheel of fortune, directly before or directly after the WoF action ?

Since this action happens after drawing a tile but before placing it, this means it happens in Step 1B, along with the actions of The Wheel of Fortune... So both of them belong to the same round of scoring at the end of this step.

Note: I'm about to update the Order of Play to include this and the PnP expanions...

Also, when combined with the plague, I guess we may place a flea token before the revolt? In some scenarios, that could remove our only unprotected meeple to make the revolt pass on to the next player   >:D

Yes, you spread the plague once during your turn... You may decide when.

The issue here is that there is no clear granularity of the individual actions in the steps, so there is no rule to prevent you from doing the following:
- Place tile in front of you...
- (Inner mental process: You spot your only unprotected meeple affected by the revolt and you decide to sacrifice it to the plague for the common good... Ahem!...in order to pass the revolt to the next player)  >:D
- You place a flea token and remove your unprotected meeple, since The Plague allows you to choose when (living on the edge)
- You score for your meeples now all protected from the current revolt
- You pass the revolt to the next player...  O:-)
Title: Re: Re: New mini expansion Carcassonne - The Peasant Revolts on cundco.de
Post by: corinthiens13 on November 23, 2020, 10:54:03 AM
Well. I see big different between crop circles and peasent revolts.
1. In peasant revold you have removed all of your unprotected meeples when you get it's tile +- it's destructive because you use your earned points for protection of possible thread
2. In crop circles you can choose scenario in which you can benefit - you can add meeple to board and support your existing meeples or you can remove meeples from board, which can be also benefit, for example non scoring farmer from big field where you don't have majority and you can earn with them points on upcoming finished features.

I think this new expansion will be one of most non played mini expansion in our collections ;-(

And another major difference is that crop circles affects every player, a revolt may affect only some of the players.
Title: Re: Re: New mini expansion Carcassonne - The Peasant Revolts on cundco.de
Post by: Bumsakalaka on November 23, 2020, 11:25:11 AM
Well. I see big different between crop circles and peasent revolts.
1. In peasant revold you have removed all of your unprotected meeples when you get it's tile +- it's destructive because you use your earned points for protection of possible thread
2. In crop circles you can choose scenario in which you can benefit - you can add meeple to board and support your existing meeples or you can remove meeples from board, which can be also benefit, for example non scoring farmer from big field where you don't have majority and you can earn with them points on upcoming finished features.

I think this new expansion will be one of most non played mini expansion in our collections ;-(

And another major difference is that crop circles affects every player, a revolt may affect only some of the players.

Indeed, problem of revolt is that it affect only your meeples, so you need protect yourselft agains your bad choise of catch tile from stack.
I forgot mention this.

Well. I think that this need to create fan expansion as opposite for this. For example create some fan Land surveors stack for some situations which affect some minis.
Title: Re: Re: New mini expansion Carcassonne - The Peasant Revolts on cundco.de
Post by: tp10053 on November 23, 2020, 11:30:16 AM
Well. I see big different between crop circles and peasent revolts.
1. In peasant revold you have removed all of your unprotected meeples when you get it's tile +- it's destructive because you use your earned points for protection of possible thread
2. In crop circles you can choose scenario in which you can benefit - you can add meeple to board and support your existing meeples or you can remove meeples from board, which can be also benefit, for example non scoring farmer from big field where you don't have majority and you can earn with them points on upcoming finished features.

I think this new expansion will be one of most non played mini expansion in our collections ;-(

And another major difference is that crop circles affects every player, a revolt may affect only some of the players.
Yes, it is for these reasons I think they are vastly different.
Title: Re: Re: New mini expansion Carcassonne - The Peasant Revolts on cundco.de
Post by: Meepledrone on November 23, 2020, 11:43:01 AM
Oh, I forgot one: Can we protect a phantom, when placing it (4 points) and / or during a following turn (2 points)?

I don't know when placing it, but I'd suggest it's possible in a following turn (2 points).

The rules do not limit the number of meeples you may protect during the placement of a tile for 4 points each. So you could protect a wooden meeple and your phantom...

Additionally, each time you do not place a meeple, you can protect a meeple already placed (in a previous turn). In the great scheme of things this means:
* Step 2B-1: If you do not place a meeple or perform any other action part of this step, you may protect a meeple.
* Step 2B-2: If your phantom is in your supply and you decide not to place it, you may protect a meeple.

Additionally, each time you do not place a meeple in Step 2B-1, you can protect a meeple already placed (in a previous turn). In the great scheme of things this means:
* Step 2B-1: If you do not place a meeple or perform any other action part of this step, you may protect a meeple.
* Step 2B-2: Even if your phantom is in your supply and you decide not to place it, you may not protect a meeple.

Both steps should be skipped if you removed a knight with a princess tile.

So cool!

EDIT: Correction dur to a later post.

Title: Re: Re: New mini expansion Carcassonne - The Peasant Revolts on cundco.de
Post by: Meepledrone on November 23, 2020, 11:47:13 AM
Anyway. I have question.
I know that 99,9999999% this situation will never come, but what if I get Revolt tile during game and I will not able to use this tile - due to not allowed place for this tile.
By basic rules, this tile is removed from game and I get another tile.
Will revolt run?
Absolutely. The revolt happens before tile placement.

Haha, on WiCa footnote #1 is solving this ;-)

Ha ha ha! Enjoying already my preparatory work for the Order of Play?  ;)

This was simple, since WoF sets a precedent in this case  :(y) :(y)
Title: Re: Re: New mini expansion Carcassonne - The Peasant Revolts on cundco.de
Post by: corinthiens13 on November 23, 2020, 12:14:36 PM
When should the revolt take place when combined with the wheel of fortune, directly before or directly after the WoF action ?

Since this action happens after drawing a tile but before placing it, this means it happens in Step 1B, along with the actions of The Wheel of Fortune... So both of them belong to the same round of scoring at the end of this step.

Note: I'm about to update the Order of Play to include this and the PnP expanions...

Right. I don't know how I ended up thinking "which action has to be made first ?"... But it's not possible to get both a WoF and a revolt on the same turn, so it doesn't matter !  ;D

Also, when combined with the plague, I guess we may place a flea token before the revolt? In some scenarios, that could remove our only unprotected meeple to make the revolt pass on to the next player   >:D

Yes, you spread the plague once during your turn... You may decide when.

The issue here is that there is no clear granularity of the individual actions in the steps, so there is no rule to prevent you from doing the following:
- Place tile in front of you...
- (Inner mental process: You spot your only unprotected meeple affected by the revolt and you decide to sacrifice it to the plague for the common good... Ahem!...in order to pass the revolt to the next player)  >:D
- You place a flea token and remove your unprotected meeple, since The Plague allows you to choose when (living on the edge)
- You score for your meeples now all protected from the current revolt
- You pass the revolt to the next player...  O:-)

That's awesome !  >:D >:D >:D
Title: Re: Re: New mini expansion Carcassonne - The Peasant Revolts on cundco.de
Post by: Meepledrone on November 23, 2020, 12:34:09 PM
I see you love to wreak havoc in your games....  >:D
Title: Re: Re: New mini expansion Carcassonne - The Peasant Revolts on cundco.de
Post by: Gagoune on November 23, 2020, 01:14:50 PM
Strange...  :o
I thought that, in the Bible, 1 Corinthians 13 was about Love...  ::)
I'll have to re-read it, don't you think @Corinthiens13 ?  O:-) ;D ;)
Title: Re: Re: New mini expansion Carcassonne - The Peasant Revolts on cundco.de
Post by: corinthiens13 on November 23, 2020, 01:18:42 PM
I see you love to wreak havoc in your games....  >:D

I do, but I have to be careful when playing with my wife, or I may end up sleeping on the street  ;D

Strange...  :o
I thought that, in the Bible, 1 Corinthians 13 was about Love...  ::)
I'll have to re-read it, don't you think @Corinthiens13 ?  O:-) ;D ;)

That's loving havoc  ;D  ;D  ;D
Title: Re: Re: New mini expansion Carcassonne - The Peasant Revolts on cundco.de
Post by: Vital Pluymers on November 23, 2020, 11:54:07 PM
Oh, I forgot one: Can we protect a phantom, when placing it (4 points) and / or during a following turn (2 points)?

I don't know when placing it, but I'd suggest it's possible in a following turn (2 points).

The rules do not limit the number of meeples you may protect during the placement of a tile for 4 points each. So you could protect a wooden meeple and your phantom...

Additionally, each time you do not place a meeple, you can protect a meeple already placed (in a previous turn). In the great scheme of things this means:
* Step 2B-1: If you do not place a meeple or perform any other action part of this step, you may protect a meeple.
* Step 2B-2: If your phantom is in your supply and you decide not to place it, you may protect a meeple.

Both steps should be skipped if you removed a knight with a princess tile.

So cool!

This doesn't feel right. I am very sure that this is not reflecting the "intended use" which you always like to mention  :D

In my opinion, protecting a meeple placed in a previous turn is just another Move the Wood option like e.g. building another tower piece, placing the fairy next to one of your meeples, placing a meeple on one of the WoF spots, etc. The principle is always the same: If you decide not to place a meeple, you can do one of those mentioned actions instead.
However, none of those mentioned actions can be chosen as a substitute for the phantom in Step 2B-2 if you still have the phantom in your supply and decide not to place it. So, to conclude, you cannot protect a meeple in your second phantom turn (Step 2B-2).
Title: Re: Re: New mini expansion Carcassonne - The Peasant Revolts on cundco.de
Post by: Bumsakalaka on November 24, 2020, 01:32:32 AM
* Step 2B-2: If your phantom is in your supply and you decide not to place it, you may protect a meeple.

In my opinion, protecting a meeple placed in a previous turn is just another Move the Wood option like e.g. building another tower piece, placing the fairy next to one of your meeples, placing a meeple on one of the WoF spots, etc. The principle is always the same: If you decide not to place a meeple, you can do one of those mentioned actions instead.
However, none of those mentioned actions can be chosen as a substitute for the phantom in Step 2B-2 if you still have the phantom in your supply and decide not to place it. So, to conclude, you cannot protect a meeple in your second phantom turn (Step 2B-2).

I'm understand @Meepledrone's solution. His solution is simillar to Flying machine or Magic portal. When not used in Step 2B-1 you can youse it in Step 2B-2 with Phantom.
Also understand @Vital Pluymers' solution. Whis is looking to rules more strict where Place Wood phase is not Place Phantom phase ;-)

1st BUT:
When you have phantom in you supply, you can do with them anything you can in Phase 2B-1 but only on different feature and/or role used in Phase2B-1. So when you didn't use protect any meeple on board in Phase 2B-1 you can do this in Phase 2B-2 if you have Phantom in your supply.

2nd BUT:
I'm not not sure, but If you get Festival tile, and you don't remove meeple from board to your supply in Phase 2B-1, and you can not use Festival feature to remove meeple in Phase 2B-2 even you have Phantom in your supply.

So I will use Festival similarity, which is the same type of tile - symbol represent action.
Title: Re: Re: New mini expansion Carcassonne - The Peasant Revolts on cundco.de
Post by: corinthiens13 on November 24, 2020, 02:04:21 AM
* Step 2B-2: If your phantom is in your supply and you decide not to place it, you may protect a meeple.

In my opinion, protecting a meeple placed in a previous turn is just another Move the Wood option like e.g. building another tower piece, placing the fairy next to one of your meeples, placing a meeple on one of the WoF spots, etc. The principle is always the same: If you decide not to place a meeple, you can do one of those mentioned actions instead.
However, none of those mentioned actions can be chosen as a substitute for the phantom in Step 2B-2 if you still have the phantom in your supply and decide not to place it. So, to conclude, you cannot protect a meeple in your second phantom turn (Step 2B-2).

I'm understand @Meepledrone's solution. His solution is simillar to Flying machine or Magic portal. When not used in Step 2B-1 you can youse it in Step 2B-2 with Phantom.
Also understand @Vital Pluymers' solution. Whis is looking to rules more strict where Place Wood phase is not Place Phantom phase ;-)

I also feel like Vital Plumyers's understanding is more logical. Protecting a meeple is an alternative moove the wood action like any other (fairy moove, tollkeeper token...etc), and can not be repeated in step 2b-2.

Flying machine and portal may be used in step 2b-2 when placing the phantom, but they are alternate ways of placing the phantom and do not affect anything else.

Protecting the phantom when placing it may be possible, but the possibility to protect other meeples insted in step 2b-2 doesn't seems to respect the intended rule to me  ???
Title: Re: Re: New mini expansion Carcassonne - The Peasant Revolts on cundco.de
Post by: Bumsakalaka on November 24, 2020, 02:52:51 AM
Protecting the phantom when placing it may be possible, but the possibility to protect other meeples insted in step 2b-2 doesn't seems to respect the intended rule to me  ???
Indeed. For me, Phantom asction is place of phantom nothing else.
Title: Re: Re: New mini expansion Carcassonne - The Peasant Revolts on cundco.de
Post by: Meepledrone on November 24, 2020, 06:09:21 AM
Hi guys!

I think you all are absolutely, right!

I was totally carried away by the wording (although my initial interpretation was the same as you)... protecting other meeples is intended for Step 2B-1 only.  :o

So the bottomline would be as follow:

The rules do not limit the number of meeples you may protect during the placement of a tile for 4 points each. So you could protect a wooden meeple and your phantom... This is a placement option.

Additionally, each time you do not place a meeple in Step 2B-1, you can protect a meeple already placed (in a previous turn). In the great scheme of things this means:
* Step 2B-1: If you do not place a meeple or perform any other action part of this step, you may protect a meeple.
* Step 2B-2: Even if your phantom is in your supply and you decide not to place it, you may not protect a meeple.

Both steps should be skipped if you removed a knight with a princess tile.

Thanks to all for the correction!
Title: Re: Re: New mini expansion Carcassonne - The Peasant Revolts on cundco.de
Post by: Bumsakalaka on November 24, 2020, 07:41:07 AM
+1 Merit.
This is really what it has to be (even that phantom is not yet discovered in C2 world ;-)
Title: Re: Re: New mini expansion Carcassonne - The Peasant Revolts on cundco.de
Post by: corinthiens13 on November 24, 2020, 07:51:22 AM
Hi guys!

I think you all are absolutely, right!

I was totally carried away by the wording (although my initial interpretation was the same as you)... protecting other meeples is intended for Step 2B-1 only.  :o

So the bottomline would be as follow:

The rules do not limit the number of meeples you may protect during the placement of a tile for 4 points each. So you could protect a wooden meeple and your phantom... This is a placement option.

Additionally, each time you do not place a meeple in Step 2B-1, you can protect a meeple already placed (in a previous turn). In the great scheme of things this means:
* Step 2B-1: If you do not place a meeple or perform any other action part of this step, you may protect a meeple.
* Step 2B-2: Even if your phantom is in your supply and you decide not to place it, you may not protect a meeple.

Both steps should be skipped if you removed a knight with a princess tile.

Thanks to all for the correction!

Seems perfect to me!  :)
Title: Re: Re: New mini expansion Carcassonne - The Peasant Revolts on cundco.de
Post by: Gagoune on November 24, 2020, 09:24:07 AM
I'm silking up!  :(y)
Good jod to everyone !  8)
Thanks Meepledrone for the final wording !  ;)
That's a great teamwork !
Title: Re: Re: New mini expansion Carcassonne - The Peasant Revolts on cundco.de
Post by: Meepledrone on November 24, 2020, 10:40:03 AM
No problem!

Discussing the rules is always fun... We have to do this more often  ;D
Title: Re: Re: New mini expansion Carcassonne - The Peasant Revolts on cundco.de
Post by: Bumsakalaka on November 24, 2020, 10:49:58 AM
No problem!

Discussing the rules is always fun... We have to do this more often  ;D
I did it multiple times. But I have still no luck with simplyfing Halfling rules ;-)
Title: Re: Re: New mini expansion Carcassonne - The Peasant Revolts on cundco.de
Post by: Meepledrone on November 24, 2020, 11:09:20 AM
Halfling tiles are not everyone's favorite... I love them, though!  >:D
Title: Re: Re: New mini expansion Carcassonne - The Peasant Revolts on cundco.de
Post by: Meepledrone on November 24, 2020, 11:30:28 AM
OK. Thanks!
Title: Re: The Peasant Revolts interactions with other expansions
Post by: Decar on November 24, 2020, 11:40:38 AM
Moved
Title: Re: The Peasant Revolts interactions with other expansions
Post by: Meepledrone on November 24, 2020, 12:51:41 PM
 :(y) :(y)
Title: Re: Re: New mini expansion Carcassonne - The Peasant Revolts on cundco.de
Post by: Vital Pluymers on November 24, 2020, 11:49:23 PM
Hi guys!

I think you all are absolutely, right!

I was totally carried away by the wording (although my initial interpretation was the same as you)... protecting other meeples is intended for Step 2B-1 only.  :o

So the bottomline would be as follow:

The rules do not limit the number of meeples you may protect during the placement of a tile for 4 points each. So you could protect a wooden meeple and your phantom... This is a placement option.

Additionally, each time you do not place a meeple in Step 2B-1, you can protect a meeple already placed (in a previous turn). In the great scheme of things this means:
* Step 2B-1: If you do not place a meeple or perform any other action part of this step, you may protect a meeple.
* Step 2B-2: Even if your phantom is in your supply and you decide not to place it, you may not protect a meeple.

Both steps should be skipped if you removed a knight with a princess tile.

Thanks to all for the correction!

Seems perfect to me!  :)

I don't want to be the critical one here, but I don't think this wording is perfect.  :D

In my opinion, the section "* Step 2B-2: Even if your phantom is in your supply and you decide not to place it, you may not protect a meeple." should be omitted completely. We have just agreed that protecting a meeple is just a standard "Move the Wood" action as all the other ones (tower piece, fairy protection, WoF, Little Buildings, etc.). Then, why should we include a special remark for protecting a meeple, but not for the other "equal" actions?

I think it will lead to more questions for new players instead of more answers...

The only thing you can do is Step 2B-2 is placing your phantom, nothing else. That is as clear as it can be.
Title: Re: The Peasant Revolts interactions with other expansions
Post by: Meepledrone on November 25, 2020, 02:12:36 AM
I agree it may be an overkill, but the wording may lead you think you can protect other meeples instead of placing your phantom.

In the Order of Play you won't include the option, but out of context I think it is okay to include this clarification.

Remember the wording included in the rules:

Quote
Each time you do not to place a meeple on the tile you just have placed, you may protect one of your meeples standing on tiles for the cost of 2 points.

If you apply it literally, you would assume this applies to Steps 2B-1 and 2B-2. Did this happen to anyone here recently in the heat of the moment?  :o
Title: Re: The Peasant Revolts interactions with other expansions
Post by: Bumsakalaka on November 25, 2020, 02:21:19 AM
Quote
Each time you do not to place a meeple on the tile you just have placed, you may protect one of your meeples standing on tiles for the cost of 2 points.

Hmm, I didn't realize that. Now I understand your first wording for Phase 2B-2. In this case maybe it has to be able to protect meeple if none meeple was changed to protected in Phase 2B-1.

Wording can be: When you didn't place your phantom from your supply, you can protect any meeple if you don't do this in Phase 2B-1 Place Wood. (something with nicer english ;-D)


What do you think?

PS: German wording in rules mentioned in quote is similar?
Title: Re: The Peasant Revolts interactions with other expansions
Post by: Vital Pluymers on November 25, 2020, 02:28:23 AM
I agree it may be an overkill, but the wording may lead you think you can protect other meeples instead of placing your phantom.

In the Order of Play you won't include the option, but out of context I think it is okay to include this clarification.

Remember the wording included in the rules:

Quote
Each time you do not to place a meeple on the tile you just have placed, you may protect one of your meeples standing on tiles for the cost of 2 points.

If you apply it literally, you would assume this applies to Steps 2B-1 and 2B-2. Did this happen to anyone here recently in the heat of the moment?  :o

Not me   ;D

I think we should stick to the idea of intended use.

Quote
Each time you do not to place a meeple on the tile you just have placed, you may protect one of your meeples standing on tiles for the cost of 2 points.

If we would interpret this literally, then it could even apply that we can protect a meeple in all cases we do another Move the Wood action than placing a meeple. If I place a tower piece somewhere on the playing field, I am not placing a meeple on the tile I just played. If I move the fairy next to one of my meeples, I am not placing a meeple on the tile I just placed. If I .... There are plenty of examples we could add.
But I am convinced that this interpretation is not the original intented use that the creators had in mind when they wrote the rules.

I think the original intention was just to create another Move the Wood action, just like the other ones we already know. Let's not make it too difficult.
Title: Re: The Peasant Revolts interactions with other expansions
Post by: Meepledrone on November 25, 2020, 04:10:50 AM
Yep... I agree: The protecting of other meeples is thought of as a possible action in Step 2B-1 for 2 points.

Some spots during your a turn are out of the intended scope:
* Step 2B-2: Instead of placing a phantom
* Step 3B: Instead of deploying a meeple from the city of Carcassonne
* Step 3B: Instead of moving a wagon



(Going back to protecting meeples during placement...)

Placing a meeple on a feature (road, city, monastery) by any means should allow you to protect it for 4 points:
* Step 2B-1: placing a meeple by any means
* Step 2B-2: placing a phantom by any means

Then we have some special cases eligible for protection for 4 points for the sake of consistency:
* Step 1C: exchanging a meeple with La Porxada
* Step 3B: moving a wagon (does the meeple maintain its protection state when moved?)
* Step 4A: exchanging a meeple with a Seduction Token.
* Step 4A: placing a meeple with a crop circle

Any thoughts?
Title: Re: The Peasant Revolts interactions with other expansions
Post by: Meepledrone on November 25, 2020, 04:18:43 AM
Quote
Each time you do not to place a meeple on the tile you just have placed, you may protect one of your meeples standing on tiles for the cost of 2 points.

Hmm, I didn't realize that. Now I understand your first wording for Phase 2B-2. In this case maybe it has to be able to protect meeple if none meeple was changed to protected in Phase 2B-1.

Wording can be: When you didn't place your phantom from your supply, you can protect any meeple if you don't do this in Phase 2B-1 Place Wood. (something with nicer english ;-D)


What do you think?

PS: German wording in rules mentioned in quote is similar?

You see the dilemma here!!!  >:D

The German wording is as follows:
Quote
Immer wenn du keinen Meeple auf dein angelegtes Plättchen einsetzt, darfst du genau 1 deiner schon eingesetzten Meeple für 2 Punkte schützen.

Translated into English:
Quote
Whenever you don't use a meeple on the tile you have placed, you may use exactly 1 of your already-placed meeples for 2 points.
Title: Re: The Peasant Revolts interactions with other expansions
Post by: Bumsakalaka on November 25, 2020, 05:13:20 AM
Quote
Each time you do not to place a meeple on the tile you just have placed, you may protect one of your meeples standing on tiles for the cost of 2 points.
You see the dilemma here!!!  >:D

Well, here is also one "trap".

Quote
Each time you do not to place a meeple on the tile you just have placed...

So here can be sollution of our problem:
Each time - it mean every possibility of place meeple. It means also "not place" phantom.

So I think in phantom phase it HAS to be allowed to protect any meeple on board with costs 2 points if you not place your meeple from supply.
Title: Re: The Peasant Revolts interactions with other expansions
Post by: Bumsakalaka on November 25, 2020, 05:24:46 AM
I was checking Festival and it's rules are different.
Anyway, maybe that knew that in Advent Package will be phantom, textation includes this.
Or that "Every time" means that on any turn when you not place wood. But rules are our law, so we have to manage it.
Anyway, most similar functionality for this is moving/place toll keeper.
But rules for Tollkeepers use different wording:
Quote
If you don't place a meeple, you are allowed to place your tollhouse showing 1 (small toll). If your tollhouse is already in the game, you are allowed to relocate it. The rules for this procedure are as follows
So for this reason I'm for ability to protect any meeple on board when you have phantom in supply and not place him on board.
Title: Re: The Peasant Revolts interactions with other expansions
Post by: Vital Pluymers on November 25, 2020, 07:16:15 AM
Once again, I think we should stick to the intended use of this expansion. We should not try to invent unintended consequences because the wording is a little different than with other expansions. is there anyone on this forum who truely believes that the creators used a different phrasing because they wanted to have an exception for the phantom power?

And like I wrote before, if we take the phrasing literally, both in German or in English, a player would be able to protect a formerly placed meeple also when he builds a tower piece, when he places a little building, when he relocates the fairy, when he puts a meeple on the Wheel of Fortune, when he uses the Festival's special power, etc. In neither of these cases, the player is placing a meeple on the just placed tile.

I am really convinced that the creators only meant it as another Step 2B-1 action, nothing more, nothing less.
Title: Re: The Peasant Revolts interactions with other expansions
Post by: Vital Pluymers on November 25, 2020, 07:31:43 AM

Then we have some special cases eligible for protection for 4 points for the sake of consistency:
* Step 1C: exchanging a meeple with La Porxada
* Step 3B: moving a wagon (does the meeple maintain its protection state when moved?)
* Step 4A: exchanging a meeple with a Seduction Token.
* Step 4A: placing a meeple with a crop circle

Any thoughts?

These are indeed very interesting questions. In the current rules we don't have any indication of what would be the intention of the creators. They probably didn't even consider it.

Additionally, I cannot think of any similar cases in which meeples have a certain status.

So, there are two options:
1. We ask an official statement from HiG, but we know that they will probably not react.
2. Before the start of the game, the players decide on one of the two options: protected status is transferred to the new situation vs protected status is lost in the new situation. I haven't found yet any indication why one option should be preferable to the other. But the best thing to do is to be consequent in all cases and choose just one option for all the mentioned special cases.
Title: Re: The Peasant Revolts interactions with other expansions
Post by: Bumsakalaka on November 25, 2020, 11:06:41 AM
Before it I will told you what I doscovered today:
Quote
Each time you do not to place a meeple on the tile you just have placed, [3] you may protect one of your meeples standing on tiles for the cost of 2 points.

Imagine.
I place a tile.
I will not place meeple on tile but I enlarge tower.
By this wording of rules, I'm still able to protect any meeple, becase I didn't place a meeple on the tile I just have placed.

Also send option:
I place a tile with magic portal - ok I'll stop here, because I place meeple on magic portal which beamed my meeple somewhere else. This is simmilar to flying machine.

Another:
I place a tile.
I place a meeple to existing tower on top
By rules amd also able to protect meeples because I don't place meeple on placed tile.

And another, not last:
I move tollkeeper or place tollkeeper.
I'm able to protect meeple again?

Or?

Meybe we have to discover also those possibilities by this rules :D
Title: Re: The Peasant Revolts interactions with other expansions
Post by: Bumsakalaka on November 27, 2020, 09:22:33 AM
Well? What do you think?