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Carc Central Community => Official Rules => Topic started by: corinthiens13 on May 28, 2019, 08:07:48 AM

Title: Order of play in french
Post by: corinthiens13 on May 28, 2019, 08:07:48 AM
Hi,

Just to let you know that a french order of play, game preparation and scoring rule including every major and mini expansions, as well as promo tiles for Carcassonne is available in the download section:
http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?action=downloads;sa=view;down=346

If you have any comment or edits suggestions, just let me know so that I can update the file.

Bonjour,

Vous trouverez dans les téléchargement les règles du jeu Carcassonne (préparation d'une partie, ordre du jeu, et score des points) en français, incluant toutes les extensions majeures, les mini extensions et les cartes promotionnelles :
http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?action=downloads;sa=view;down=346

Si vous avez des remarques ou suggestions de corrections, faites-le moi savoir.
Title: Re: Order of play in french
Post by: Meepledrone on May 28, 2019, 04:41:46 PM
Hi corinthiens13!

Welcome to the forum. Hope you enjoy all you can find here  ;D

Impressive document you've put together. I will have a look and get back with some comments.

In the meantime, +1 merit from me.

Cheers!
Title: Re: Order of play in french
Post by: Meepledrone on May 29, 2019, 02:51:06 PM
Hi again corinthiens13,

By the way, if you share with me the word version of your document, I could include the annotations in the document itself. As you please.

Cheers!
Title: Re: Order of play in french
Post by: corinthiens13 on May 30, 2019, 01:02:08 AM
Hi again corinthiens13,

By the way, if you share with me the word version of your document, I could include the annotations in the document itself. As you please.

Cheers!

Hi,

Thanks, you'll find the word version here: link removed
Title: Re: Order of play in french
Post by: Meepledrone on June 01, 2019, 07:57:10 AM
Hi again corinthiens13,

By the way, if you share with me the word version of your document, I could include the annotations in the document itself. As you please.

Cheers!

Hi,

Thanks, you'll find the word version here: https://1drv.ms/w/s!Akzl4Zu9812U0F-6Dsa6wf-inkc9

Hi corinthiens13!

Here you are an annotated version with my comments:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/4g073l0u0ideyjp/R%C3%A9sum%C3%A9%20carcassonne_Annotated_V1.1.docx?dl=0 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/4g073l0u0ideyjp/R%C3%A9sum%C3%A9%20carcassonne_Annotated_V1.1.docx?dl=0)

In the end I had to use a DOCX documented generated from your initial PDF file. I couldn't successfully open the DOCX you sent on my laptop . I only get a weird message about no enough memory or disk space... The conversions altered a bit the layout.  :-\

Additionally, just have a look to WICA for the latest scoring reference I've been updating recently with additions and clarifications:
http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Scoring_During_the_Game (http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Scoring_During_the_Game)
http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Scoring_After_the_Game (http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Scoring_After_the_Game)

Let me know your thoughts.
Title: Re: Order of play in french
Post by: Meepledrone on June 05, 2019, 11:22:21 AM
Hi corinthiens13!

Did you have any chance to review my comments?

Cheers!
Title: Re: Order of play in french
Post by: corinthiens13 on June 05, 2019, 11:49:09 AM
Hi,

I just finished reviewing your comments, thanks a lot ! I updated the file to ver 2.0 in the downloads section.

Here's your annotated file with my comments. I applied most of your comments in ver 2.0, but still have some questions you'll find in my comments.

Cheers !
Title: Re: Order of play in french
Post by: Meepledrone on June 06, 2019, 04:59:41 PM
Hi again!

Here you are some comments on v2.0. I think they also cover the open points left. Let me know if skipped something unknowingly.

Cheers!

Title: Re: Order of play in french
Post by: corinthiens13 on June 07, 2019, 12:47:59 AM
Hi,

Thank you for reviewing my order of play once again. I uploaded ver 2.1 in the download section.

You'll find here your commented file, with a few last questions  ;D
Title: Re: Order of play in french
Post by: corinthiens13 on June 07, 2019, 03:03:14 AM
Hi again,

I found my answer for pig herd, ver 2.2 has been uploaded with this correction, and I also corrected a note at the beginning of page 5.
Title: Re: Order of play in french
Post by: Meepledrone on June 07, 2019, 04:26:30 PM
Hi corinthiens13,

A few more comments in the document attached. I also include here some examples of vineyards and gardens for you:

* C1 vineyards: The following symbol shows a C1 vineyard. No garden symbols are present as they exist in C2 only.

(http://wikicarpedia.com/images/7/71/Hills_And_Sheep_C1_Vineyard_Symbol.jpg)

Here you can find the Tile Distribution of Exp. 9 - Hills & Sheep for C1 with several vineyards (in 6 tile images).

http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Hills_%26_Sheep_(1st_edition)#Tile_distribution (http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Hills_%26_Sheep_(1st_edition)#Tile_distribution)


* C2 vineyards: The following symbol shows a C2 vineyard.

(http://wikicarpedia.com/images/2/27/Hills_And_Sheep_C2_Feature_Vineyard.png)

Here you can find the Tile Distribution of Exp. 9 - Hills & Sheep for C2 with several vineyards (the last 6 tile images). You can also see one of the tiles has a garden.

http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Hills_%26_Sheep#Tile_distribution (http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Hills_%26_Sheep#Tile_distribution)


* C1 gardens: There are no gardens in C1 official expansions. They only exist as an authorized conversion from C2 to C1 performed by members of the CarcF (the German Carcassonne Forum,
http://www.carcassonne-forum.de (http://www.carcassonne-forum.de)). The initiative  was authorized by HiG and two garden designs were produced. You can find three examples of converted tiles to add gardens showing both C1 garden designs in this CarcF post:

https://www.carcassonne-forum.de/viewtopic.php?f=86&t=3446&start=15#p56926 (https://www.carcassonne-forum.de/viewtopic.php?f=86&t=3446&start=15#p56926)


* C2 gardens: The following symbol shows a garden present in several C2 tiles

(http://wikicarpedia.com/images/b/be/Abbot_C2_Example_Garden.png)

You can check all the tiles in the following page related to The Abbot mini expansion.

http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/The_Abbot (http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/The_Abbot)

Hope this clarifies your doubts.

Cheers!
Title: Re: Order of play in french
Post by: corinthiens13 on June 09, 2019, 09:48:23 AM
Hi,

Thanks ! File updated to ver 2.3, I corrected everything you mentioned (hoping I didn't forget anything), but still have two questions for the Market of Leipzig, to be sure I place everything correctly. I attached the commented file to this post.

I always thought gardens and vineyards had the same function (probably because I have the base game and some expansions including Hills & sheeps from C1, and then got some other expansions from C2, adding a few gardens I thought were new design for vineyards. It should be correct now in ver 2.3.

Have a nice day !
Title: Re: Order of play in french
Post by: Meepledrone on June 09, 2019, 04:22:34 PM
Hi there!

Here are my comments to V2.3. I haven't reviewed the full document but I've seen you introduced new changes unrelated to my previous comments. I'll try the check the full document when I have a chance. I included some comments on some new stuff that caught my eye.

Regarding Markets of Leipzig, I included a long annotation. In a nutshell, as per the interpretation of the German rules:

* The bonus for roads and fields are to be considered part of the feature scoring:
   - When you score a road, you get 1 additional point per tile in the feature, similar to an Inn or German Cathedral.
   - When you score a field you get a 2 points per shed or farmhouse, similar to Little Buildings.

* The bonus for cities and monasteries is not part of the feature scoring, it is a separate extra scoring:
   - You may score 0 points from a city and get this bonus. It is similar to the 3-point fairy bonus but, in this case, you get 3 points per coat of arms.
   - You may score a monastery without getting the bonus, and vice versa.

The rationale followed in the Reference Pages on WICA about Scoring During/After the game is derived from the rules and official clarifications. It considers three steps when scoring a feature such as cities or roads:
 
1. Compute basic points for feature based on the number of tiles and coats-of-arms alone. Inns and Cathedrals are applied last as they serve as an all-or-nothing modifier during final scoring. In this step you would consider as well German Cathedrals, Cathars for cities, Markets of Leipzig bonus for roads.
2. Apply Mage & Witch
3. Apply all additional extra scoring associated to features or figures, such as Little Buildings, German Castles, Bathhouses, Darmstadtium,....

There are other features or figures that may trigger an additional scoring when a city or road is completed:
* Watchtowers (scored before the feature)
* The 3-point Fairy bonus
* The Markets of Leipzig bonus for cities
* Ringmaster scoring
* Labyrinth scoring
* The GingerbreadMan in WE
They are applied independently as they may involve one or more players and even not affect the active player.

IMHO, this framework allows you to put together in a logical way how to compute the scoring of these features.

Let me know your thoughts

Enjoy!
Title: Re: Order of play in french
Post by: corinthiens13 on June 10, 2019, 12:44:23 AM
Hi,

Thanks, file updated to ver 2.4. Your post also reminded me that I forgot advanced rules for the labyrinth, I added them.

Here's the file, with some comments. I corrected the Leipzig scoring, your understanding is logical when looking at the German rules. I'll probably add a house rule to keep Leipzig points apart from feature scoring, it seems easier to understand and more consistent as it brings a kind of unity between all of Leipzig's quarters.

Thanks for all your work for my French order of play, I really appreciate it.

Here's the annotated file with a few questions, some I got when playing a mega-Carcassonne yesterday and couldn't find a clear answer.

Have a nice day !
Title: Re: Order of play in french
Post by: Meepledrone on June 11, 2019, 02:16:36 PM
Hi,

Thanks, file updated to ver 2.4. Your post also reminded me that I forgot advanced rules for the labyrinth, I added them.

Hi,

Ooops! I missed this one when reviewing the scoring for roads.

Here's the file, with some comments. I corrected the Leipzig scoring, your understanding is logical when looking at the German rules. I'll probably add a house rule to keep Leipzig points apart from feature scoring, it seems easier to understand and more consistent as it brings a kind of unity between all of Leipzig's quarters.

Thanks for all your work for my French order of play, I really appreciate it.

My pleasure! I really like to review rules and discuss different points of view. It's a great way to check if WICA covers everything and to validate the interactions between expansions are correct especially when some interpretations need to be made beyond existing rules and official clarifications. This is key to me in order to put together the reference pages (Order of Play, Scoring tables, etc.) as they summarize everything and it is not straight forward to fill in the gaps.

Here's the annotated file with a few questions, some I got when playing a mega-Carcassonne yesterday and couldn't find a clear answer.

Have a nice day !

More comments in response to yours in the file attached.

Cheers!
Title: Re: Order of play in french
Post by: corinthiens13 on June 18, 2019, 02:31:54 AM
Hi,

File has finally been updated to ver 3.0. I checked the whole document, corrected some things according to your comments, and updated layout and presentation.

Here are some more comments  :)
Title: Re: Order of play in french
Post by: Meepledrone on June 18, 2019, 02:54:42 AM
Cool!!!

I'll check it all out this evening.  ;D

Talk to you!
Title: Re: Order of play in french
Post by: Meepledrone on June 21, 2019, 02:22:25 PM
Hi,

Awesome work! I just included a comment regarding Markets of Leipzig...

I think we are done... for the time being until the next expansion or clarification (if any) is released.

Cheers!
Title: Re: Order of play in french
Post by: corinthiens13 on June 22, 2019, 12:44:37 AM
Hi,

File has been updated to final version for now. I corrected the Market of Leipzig issue according to the new WICA correction.

Thanks a lot for your help !
Title: Re: Order of play in french
Post by: Meepledrone on June 22, 2019, 01:11:39 AM
Hi corinthiens13,

It's been very interesting to work with you.

+1 merit from me for such a great job!

One last thing: I just noticed you just included the Wheel of Fortune scoring in "Etape 2" bullet 6 but not in chapter "Points durant la partie." Is this on purpose?

Cheers!
Title: Re: Order of play in french
Post by: corinthiens13 on June 22, 2019, 02:20:34 AM
Thanks,

Yes this was on purpose, for points related to "multiple choice actions" (messages and wheel of fortune), I included the points and description directly in the order of play.

I added a link to messages and WoF in the points during the game though (without updating file version).

Cheers !
Title: Re: Order of play in french
Post by: Meepledrone on June 23, 2019, 12:45:54 PM
OK. Great!

Next steps?  ;)

Cheers!
Title: Re: Order of play in french
Post by: corinthiens13 on July 15, 2019, 11:53:19 PM
Hi everyone,

File has been updated to ver 3.4 :
 - Quality of pictures improved
 - Changed CI pictures to CII pictures when available
 - Few other improvements, rules haven't been modified

Have fun at playing !
Title: Re: Order of play in french
Post by: Meepledrone on July 16, 2019, 12:55:02 PM
Hi there corinthiens13!

"Long" time no talk. Keep up with the great work!

I reviewed the images and would like to comment a few minor issues:
* Page 12 - Festival: There is a festival symbol for C2 (Please check: http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/The_Festival (http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/The_Festival)). The entry displays the C1 version.
* Page 19 - Ville / Cathédrale(s): It displays a C1 cathedral
* Page 19 - Route / + Auberge(s): It displays a C1 inn
* Page 22 - Ville / Cathédrale(s): It displays a C1 cathedral
* Page 23 - Route / + Auberge(s): It displays a C1 inn

Some additional comments on the expansion symbols on page 3 just in case you want to point it out differences between C1 and C2. If you just included them as visual aid, just ignore the following comments:
 
* La rivière: It has only an expansion symbol in the Big Box 5 version
* La rivière II: It may have no symbol for C1
* Hérétiques et autels: It may have no symbol for C1
* Cathares / siège / assiégeants: The symbol shown belongs to Assiégeants (Besiegers). Cathares (Cathars) show a monk symbol and Siège (Siege) has no symbol.
* Le festival: It has different symbols for C1 and C2
* Castles in Germany: iIt has different symbols for C1 and C2

Cheers!
Title: Re: Order of play in french
Post by: corinthiens13 on July 18, 2019, 10:06:13 AM
Thanks, file updated to ver 3.5. The expansion symbols were added mainly as a visual aid, but I added a second symbol for expansions having different symbols.

By the way, the new edition count, king and robber Wica page (
http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Count,_King_and_Robber#3._Scoring_a_feature_-_Moving_meeples_from_Carcassonne (http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Count,_King_and_Robber#3._Scoring_a_feature_-_Moving_meeples_from_Carcassonne) ) has the wrong picture for "From the cathedral to a monastery or shrine.". The correct picture can be found in the unused files ( http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php?title=Special:UnusedFiles&limit=500&offset=0 (http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php?title=Special:UnusedFiles&limit=500&offset=0) )

Cheers !
Title: Re: Order of play in french
Post by: Meepledrone on July 18, 2019, 10:52:51 AM
I'll have a look. But I know it is going to be awesome!!!

I think your effort deserves a +1 merit.


Thank you so much for spotting the error and letting me know. Correction done.

By the way, would you like to participate in the translation of WICA into French?  ;D
Title: Re: Order of play in french
Post by: corinthiens13 on July 21, 2019, 08:05:11 AM
Hi,

Thanks for the merit, I gave you one too for your reviewing.

I can't guarantee I'll spend a lot of time to translate WICA, but I may contribute a little bit  ;)
Title: Re: Order of play in french
Post by: Meepledrone on July 21, 2019, 11:38:42 AM
Thank you, corinthiens13!

It was my pleasure giving you a hand. The review also helped me validate the Game Reference and Order of Play in WICA. So it was a win-win.

I saw you already have 75 downloads of the Order of Play in French, so if want to add some more information to French-speaking players through WICA, just let me know. Even if it is just one page, it will be a step forward for everyone.  ;D

Cheers!
Title: Re: Order of play in french
Post by: corinthiens13 on July 23, 2019, 10:08:36 AM
Hi again,

I realised I'm not sure about the "place a tile" actions order (pages 10-11): do we have any clue if princess, mage and witch, Solovei Razboynik and Vodyanoy actions have to be played before or after moving the dragon ?

And also for "Étape 5 : Actions" (page 13), should we send meeples to Solovei Razboynik before or after (or both) moving a ferry, and before or after the fruit bearing tree action ?

Cheers
Title: Re: Order of play in french
Post by: Meepledrone on July 23, 2019, 03:18:20 PM
Hi again,

I realised I'm not sure about the "place a tile" actions order (pages 10-11): do we have any clue if princess, mage and witch, Solovei Razboynik and Vodyanoy actions have to be played before or after moving the dragon ?

Hi corinthiens13!

In C2, the dragon movement is the last action after drawing and placing a tile. It will happen right before the Move Wood phase. The C2 rules represent it as phase 1b. The Dragon Moves, that would happen between 1. Placing a tile and 2. Placing a Meeple. So all actions associated to tiles will happen before the dragon moves.

In C1, as per HiG and ZMG, the dragon moves after the Move Wood phase and before scoring, that is between 2. Placing a Meeple and 3. Scoring a feature.

On the other hand, RGG mistranslated the C1 German rules and placed the dragon movement after scoring, that is after 3. Scoring a feature. This is noticeable in the RGG version of Big Box 3 where the written rules state the dragon moves after scoring but the Order of Play diagram at the end of the manual (the same as the HiG original) places the dragon movement between 2. Placing a Meeple and 3. Scoring a feature. Funny, huh?
 

And also for "Étape 5 : Actions" (page 13), should we send meeples to Solovei Razboynik before or after (or both) moving a ferry, and before or after the fruit bearing tree action ?

Cheers

There is no official rules or clarifications about the interactions of these three min expansions, so the interpretation of the rules is all we have. So there is no official ruling about how the sequence the actions related to Ferries (2012), Solovei Razboynik (2016) and Fruit-bearing Trees (2018) should happen. Additionally, HiG has included a disclaimer in the rules of the latest mini expansions declining any clarifications on their behalf.

All this said, the rule of thumb I followed for the Order of Play is:
* Respect any partial turn of sequence provided in rules (I extended this to scoring sequence as well)
* If the order of actions is not irrelevant (like in this case), order them by release date (first released, first served)

So we have two blocks of actions here, that will be handled in this sequence:
1. Ferries and their interaction with Solovei Razboynik
2. Fruit-bearing Trees



About the sequence

The rules for The Ferries describe the turn sequence as:

1. Placing Tile --> 2. Placing a Meeple --> 3. Placing a Ferry --> 4. Moving a Ferry --> 5. Scoring a Feature

So, why not keeping these actions back to back and adding and incorporating any additional actions such as  Fruit-bearing Trees actions after action 4?

The Fruit-bearing Trees actions will happen then at that point before scoring, as a result of this line of thought and considering "the first released, first served" rule.



About the interaction of ferries and Solovei Razboynik

The idea here is that lake (ferry) tiles will comply with Solovei Razboynik rules regarding meeple trapping right after placing the tile during 1. Placing a Tile as any other tile, but they will also provide more scenarios for trapping meeples such as when connecting roads through:
  a. placing the ferry on the lake 
  b. moving the ferry
These two scenarios will happen during 2. Placing a Meeple, and they are not explicitly mentioned in the Solovei Razboynik rules, for example, but can be distilled from the Solovei Razboynik rules:

Quote
If followers occupy a road that goes through the Solovei Razboynik tile (or they occupy roads that are connected to that tile later on in the game), players must move them onto the tile.

Therefore, the Solovei Razboynik tile will trap meeples located on a road connected to its roads segments. This may happen when:
* Placing the Solovei Razboynik tile next to roads containing ferries or not.
* When connecting roads to the Solovei Razboynik tile by tile placement or by moving ferries



Hope this helps.

Cheers!

PS: As a result of your question, I have applied the following updates to WICA:

* Russian Promos: Added a clarification on the interaction of Solovei Razboynik with ferries and tunnels.
    - Page: http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Russian_Promos_(1st_edition) (http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Russian_Promos_(1st_edition)):

* Order of Play: Added explicit actions on the interaction of Solovei Razboynik with ferries and tunnels.
    - Page for C1:
http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Order_of_Play_(1st_edition) (http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Order_of_Play_(1st_edition))
    - Page for C2:
http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Order_of_Play (http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Order_of_Play)
    - Page for WE:
http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Winter_Order_of_Play (http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Winter_Order_of_Play)
   
Title: Re: Order of play in french
Post by: corinthiens13 on July 24, 2019, 10:09:20 PM
Hi,

Thanks for your clarifications, I changed the order of step 3, and moved the Solovei Razboynik action to "at any moment of your turn", you have to move any meeple on a road connected to Solovei's tile to the tree.

I'm looking forward to my next méga-Carcassonne game to point other issues  ;)

Cheers
Title: Re: Order of play in french
Post by: Meepledrone on July 25, 2019, 11:33:31 AM
Hi corinthiens13,

My pleasure. I love this type of questions!!!

Actually there are only 4 moments so far where the "Solovei Razboynik action" may take place:
* After placing a tunnel token
* After placing a tile
* After placing a ferry
* After moving a ferry

Keep me posted of any "findings" during your games.  :))

Cheers!
Title: Re: Order of play in french
Post by: Meepledrone on July 25, 2019, 02:05:45 PM
Hi corinthiens13,

I just realized the scoreboard on page 5 is a C1 version.

Cheers!
Title: Re: Order of play in french
Post by: corinthiens13 on July 25, 2019, 02:08:39 PM
Hi,

I already have a new question : how does ferries, crop circles and Solovei Razboynik interact with the labyrinth with advanced rules?

My guess is that during the game (except when scoring), the labyrinth tile is considered like a village, with four different segments (moving a ferry is allowed only if the tile placed is connected to the ferry without going through the labyrinth / meeples are sent to Solovei only if they're connected to Solovei without going through the labyrinth / adding a meeple with crop circle is allowed only on road segments connected without going through the labyrinth to another same color meeple )?

For the scoreboard, I couldn't find a C2 picture of an entire scoreboard, I'm still searching.

Cheers
Title: Re: Order of play in french
Post by: Meepledrone on July 25, 2019, 03:52:05 PM
Hi corinthiens13,

Of course there are no official clarifications for these interactions. Let's see what we can do with what we have  ;)

Labyrinths behave like a roundabouts rather than 4-way crossings (with a village). This is clear for the basic rules but the advanced rules allow each road branch to be claimed independently from each other and even the labyrinth tile itself (as if there were 5 different claimable sub-features).

Additionally, in this quiz by Kettlefish with the Labyrinth advanced rules, you can see that features such as Inns and German Cathedrals affect the whole road network spawning from the labyrinth.

http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=2584.msg37828#msg37828 (http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=2584.msg37828#msg37828)

So a road network with a labyrinth behaves like a road with several branches.

As a conclusion:
1. Adding a tile to a road network with a labyrinth would allow you to move the first ferry on every branch you meet when following the road branches even at the other end of a labyrinth. Again, consider the labyrinth a special roundabout.
2. The Solovei Razboynik tile would affect a whole road network containing a labyrinth tile.
3. Crop circles would allow you to deploy a meeple next to a previously placed one or yours on the road network. This includes the labyrinth tile that behaves as a special roundabout, that is, a special road tile.

In a nutshell, if you consider the labyrinth tile as a roundabout tile, all your doubts would be resolved.

Regarding the C2 scoreboard image, please find attached a sample as shown on the cundco.de list.

Cheers!
Title: Re: Order of play in french
Post by: corinthiens13 on July 26, 2019, 02:35:44 AM
Hi,

Thanks for the scoreboard picture. I'll add it in the next update.

For the labyrinth, I'd have a different understanding, what do you think of :

As we may place meeples on each branch, the reason would be that anyone on a branch cannot see the other branches (or cannot see if the other branches are part of the same road or not), so they can't do any action past the labyrinth (ferries, crop circles and solovei), as they don'know they're on the same road. So the labyrinth is used like a village (except that we may place a meeple not only on each branches, but also on the labyrinth itself).

And then for scoring, as mentioned in the quiz by Kettlefish, the labyrinth is treated like a roundabout.

For basic rules it's clear the labyrinth is used like a roundabout.

Cheers!
Title: Re: Order of play in french
Post by: Meepledrone on July 26, 2019, 10:54:11 AM
Hi corinthiens13,

It is an interesting option but IMHO I don't think it was the original intent of the rules by HiG.

Let me elaborate...

I've been revisiting anything I could find on the advanced rules for the Labyrinth. I found this quote from Just a Bill that was part of a tread discussing translation of the The Labyrinth Advanced Rules from German into English by forum member InTheDark. You can find the final document here:

http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?action=downloads;sa=view;down=339  (http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?action=downloads;sa=view;down=339)

So they where discussing the rules Just a Bill came to this conclusion (I posted something similar as well):

The single-tile labyrinth and its four multi-tile branches are treated as five "sub-roads" for deployment and occupation, but the whole thing is treated as a single road for completion and scoring.


This would be a lean summary of the advanced rules. The to key snippets that describe the nature of the labyrinth with the advanced rules is the overlapping of these two principles found in the rules:

1. Basic rules: The labyrinth is not a crossing; all outgoing roads are interconnected
2. Advance rules: Since the labyrinth makes the connections of the roads quite unmanageable, the placing of meeples is regulated differently in this variant.

So, statement #1 always applies. As we agreed the labyrinth behaves like a roundabout in the basic rules. But in the advanced rules, statement #2 announces placing meeples will follow a special ruling. So the subtlety here is that only meeple placement is affected but the road network with the labyrinth operates normally in all the other aspects since the labyrinth always behaves like a regular roundabout, as statement #1 indicated.

So all in all, the advanced rules apply a distortion to the way meeples can be placed on a road network with a labyrinth, but the whole network behaves as a regular multi-branch road. Taking this into consideration, the interaction of a road network with labyrinths and/or roundabouts with any expansion is quite straightforward and seamless.

What do you think?

Cheers!
Title: Re: Order of play in french
Post by: corinthiens13 on July 26, 2019, 02:40:32 PM
Hi,

I'm ok with this, but I think both understandings could be used:

1. Basic rules: The labyrinth is not a crossing; all outgoing roads are interconnected for completing and scoring the road
2. Advance rules: Since the labyrinth makes the connections of the roads quite unmanageable, the placing of meeples as well as any other actions (other than completing and scoring) is regulated differently in this variant

As base game doesn't include any of those "other actions", there was no reason to mention anything else than placing a meeple that'd be regulated differently.

So we have to choose one understanding, yours takes the base rule more literally and expanding it to other expansions's actions, mine is more taking the labyrinth's essence to immagine its interaction with other expansions. That's interesting  ;)
Title: Re: Order of play in french
Post by: Meepledrone on July 27, 2019, 02:17:04 AM
Hi corinthiens13,

As I said earlier, we are on uncharted waters as no official ruling exists to clarify the behavior of the road network when combined with ferries and Solovei Razboynik.

NOTE: Regarding crop circles, I didn't catch what you were suggesting. Deploying meeples with crop circles just requires a previous meeple placed a feature of the right type. There is no majority restriction or any other limitation. Are you suggesting a limitation due to the presence of the labyrinth tile? Maybe that you cannot add a meeple to the labyrinth tile itself and only to the road branches?

So for me the solution is that the players have to decide the rules you want to apply in a game:

1. Basic rules:
* The labyrinth works as a regular roundabout tile.
* The road network behaves as one normal feature.

2. Advanced rules - Literal rules:
* The labyrinth works as a regular roundabout tile.
* The road network behaves as one normal feature except for meeple placement (it defines 5 sub-features that can be claimed independently.)
* They provide an additional scoring mechanism for meeples.

3. Extended rules - Labyrinth extended rules:
* The labyrinth works as a special roundabout tile.
* The road network behaves as one normal feature for completion, but for meeple placement and other interactions it considers 5 independent sub-features, namely ferries, Solovei Razboynik, and crop circles (?).
* They provide an additional scoring mechanism for meeples.

I love your interpretation and no doubt I will try it myself, but IMHO, option #3 is a bit far-stretched, and HiG's original intent was just to give a tongue-in-cheek concession to meeple placement and an extra scoring mechanism. It would be interesting if HiG would provide a clarification. They could even surprise us all.

In any case, it is up to players to decide which rules to use and it's is great to offer them all the options so they may enjoy the most of the game.  ^-^

Cheers!
Title: Re: Order of play in french
Post by: corinthiens13 on July 27, 2019, 03:02:07 AM
Hi,

I love the option that players have to choose between the three rules.

For crop circle, the question is, for rule option 2 (as it's a meeple placement) and 3:
If a player places the club crop circle and choses the "add a meeple to a feature where you already have a meeple" option. A player having a meeple on one of the labyrinth sub-features can place a meeple only on the same sub-feature where he's having his previous meeple, or can he place his meeple on any of the 5 sub-features?
This doesn't change anything for the road's completition, but it may change something if towers or the dragon are near some of the sub-features.

Cheers!
Title: Re: Order of play in french
Post by: Meepledrone on July 27, 2019, 06:33:25 AM
Hi,

I love the option that players have to choose between the three rules.

Hi corinthiens13,

That's my point. Why not? Let players pick the one they prefer.  O0

For crop circle, the question is, for rule option 2 (as it's a meeple placement) and 3:
If a player places the club crop circle and choses the "add a meeple to a feature where you already have a meeple" option. A player having a meeple on one of the labyrinth sub-features can place a meeple only on the same sub-feature where he's having his previous meeple, or can he place his meeple on any of the 5 sub-features?
This doesn't change anything for the road's completition, but it may change something if towers or the dragon are near some of the sub-features.

Cheers!

Ohhhh, I see. This is a tricky matter.

What rules are you following for Crop Circles. I've been reviewing the version in German (HiG), English (ZMG) and Spanish (Devir) and I was disappointed by the discrepancies in the ZMG rules.

Besides that HiG and Devir consider the placement of additional meeples and option whereas ZMG considers this action mandatory, the ZMG rules assume that you may place the additional meeple on any tile of the feature where your previous meeple was. On the other hand, the original rules for C1 and C2 (and the Spanish ones too) state you place your additional meeple next to a previously placed one.

If we apply the official HiG rules, labyrinths would not have any influence on crop circles.

What is your take on this.

Cheers!

PS: I added some information and clarifications on the discrepancies in ZMG rules for Crop Circles to WICA:
* Crop Circles for C2: http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Crop_Circles (http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Crop_Circles)
* Summary of Rule Sets & Changes:
http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Summary_of_Rule_Sets_%26_Changes (http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Summary_of_Rule_Sets_%26_Changes)
Title: Re: Order of play in french
Post by: corinthiens13 on July 27, 2019, 09:23:02 AM
Hi,

I'm using the WICA rule ;) (We MUST remove a meeple or we MUST place a meeple on a feature where we already have one).

But then, for rules option 2 and 3, it has to be clarified on which sub-features of the labyrinth we may place a meeple. For rule option 3 I'd say we may place it only on the same sub-feature, as the labyrinth is considered as a village except for completition. For option 2, as we are "placing a meeple", I'd also say we may only place it on a sub-feature where we already have a meeple of the same color?

1. Basic rules:
* The labyrinth works as a regular roundabout tile.
* The road network behaves as one normal feature.

2. Advanced rules - Literal rules:
* The labyrinth works as a regular roundabout tile.
* The road network behaves as one normal feature except for meeple placement (it defines 5 sub-features that can be claimed independently.), also for meeples placed with a crop circle?
* They provide an additional scoring mechanism for meeples.

3. Extended rules - Labyrinth extended rules:
* The labyrinth works as a special roundabout tile.
* The road network behaves as one normal feature for completion, but for meeple placement and other interactions it considers 5 independent sub-features, namely ferries, Solovei Razboynik, and crop circles (?).
* They provide an additional scoring mechanism for meeples.
Title: Re: Order of play in french
Post by: Meepledrone on July 27, 2019, 04:46:47 PM
Hi corinthiens13,

I just updated WICA to give preference to the HiG rules over the discrepancies introduced by ZMG in Minis #2, #6 and #7.

Until now, the ZMG discrepancies were part of the main text and the official HiG rules were in the footnotes. I have rearranged the text to fix the situation, so the HiG rules are now in the main text and the ZMG discrepancies are in the footnotes. This is the regular treatment for discrepancies in the CAR. Sorry if this was misleading. 

Despite the ZMG discrepancy, the Crop Circles official rules by HiG state that Option A allows players to add a meeple next to a previously placed one. So the new meeple would always share the same feature and tile.

This said, you may understand now why I was commenting that labyrinths do not have any influence on crop circles: Crop circles can only deploy a meeple to a tile with another meeple belonging the player.

The German rules and the Spanish rules are the same but the English rules turned out to be more "imaginative" that the original ones. I couldn't check the Big Box 6 rules in any other languages.



So getting back to the various version of Labyrinth rules, if we remove the Crop Circles effect, we will have:

1. Basic rules:
* The labyrinth works as a regular roundabout tile.
* The road network behaves as one normal feature.

2. Advanced rules - Literal rules:
* The labyrinth works as a regular roundabout tile.
* The road network behaves as one normal feature except for meeple placement (it defines 5 sub-features that can be claimed independently.)
* They provide an additional scoring mechanism for meeples.

3. Extended rules - Labyrinth extended rules:
* The labyrinth works as a special roundabout tile.
* The road network behaves as one normal feature for completion, but for meeple placement and other interactions it considers 5 independent sub-features, namely ferries and Solovei Razboynik.
* They provide an additional scoring mechanism for meeples.

Let me know your thoughts.

Cheers!

PS: WICA pages updated to reflect the official rules in the main text and to add some more clarifications:
* Mini #2 - The Messages for C2:
http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/The_Messages (http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/The_Messages)
* Mini #6 - The Robbers for C2:
http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/The_Robbers (http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/The_Robbers)
* Mini #7 - Crop Circles for C2:
http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Crop_Circles (http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Crop_Circles)
* Summary of Rule Sets & Changes:
http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Summary_of_Rule_Sets_%26_Changes (http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Summary_of_Rule_Sets_%26_Changes)
Title: Re: Order of play in french
Post by: corinthiens13 on July 29, 2019, 02:34:23 AM
Hi,

I'm ok with the 3 rules now. I corrected Crop Circles rules and messages, robbers were already ok.

For the messages, you note that you can score 0 points. This scenario may cover:
- A highwayman on road with an inn
- A knight in city with a cathedral
- A knight on besieged city
- A farmer in field with no completed cities
- A mayor in city with no pennants
- A mayor on castle token
- A lord/lady on castle token
- A meeple on tower
Of course, choosing to do this rather than take the 2 points in the seal would be an odd tactical decision...

But if we have to look at the majority, then there's another scenario:
 - You do not have the majority

Right ?

Cheers !
Title: Re: Order of play in french
Post by: Meepledrone on July 29, 2019, 03:20:29 AM
Hi corinthiens13,

I removed initially that case as you are supposed to pick a meeple in a feature where you have the majority. However, you are right you may choose to score a feature with no majority (imagine you need badly to get a meepleback and you have to make this sacrifice.)

So, the missing line is back where it belongs.

Thanks for the heads-up!!!

Cheers!
Title: Re: Order of play in french
Post by: corinthiens13 on July 31, 2019, 12:31:47 PM
Thanks, the corrections of the french rules are almost done. One more clarification for the WICA crop circle page:

I think one of those two points may be false, as they imply a contradiction:
- If you do not have any meeples of the indicated type in play, but you placed the tile, you must still choose A or B. so the active player can chose an action he won't be able to perform (B if he doesn't have any meeple of the indicated type) ?
- If you do not have any meeples of the indicated type in play and did not place the tile, you do not perform the chosen action. So every player except the active player has to skip the action if they don't have the indicated meeple type. And what about the active player if he doesn't have any meeple of the indicated type ?

And this one seems strange to me:
- Once all players have performed the chosen action, play resumes, starting with the player on your left. So the end of the active player's turn is skipped (builder action, + siege for C1 rules) ?

Cheers
Title: Re: Order of play in french
Post by: Meepledrone on August 01, 2019, 02:01:50 PM
Thanks, the corrections of the french rules are almost done. One more clarification for the WICA crop circle page:

No problem. Let's see your questions...

I think one of those two points may be false, as they imply a contradiction:
- If you do not have any meeples of the indicated type in play, but you placed the tile, you must still choose A or B. so the active player can chose an action he won't be able to perform (B if he doesn't have any meeple of the indicated type) ?
- If you do not have any meeples of the indicated type in play and did not place the tile, you do not perform the chosen action. So every player except the active player has to skip the action if they don't have the indicated meeple type. And what about the active player if he doesn't have any meeple of the indicated type ?

The active player will always have to choose between A or B. Not having a meeple of the indicated type can be used in your favor (you as the active player), for example, with option B, as you can force other players to remove meeples from features you may be interested in claiming later without affecting you if don't have the indicated meeple type in play. Imagine you force all player to remove farmers and then you start a field claiming spree.

Option A is a bit different since the original HiG rules state that players may choose to add the meeple or not.

So here you have a mix of luck and strategy. The active player decides the action to perform but:
* Option A: players may comply optionally but only if they have a meeple of the indicated type in play.
* Option B: players have to comply with the removal of a meeple except those without a meeple of the indicated type in play.
Not having a meeple of the indicated type may affect any player, including the active player.

So I don't see any contradiction. Did I miss anything?

And this one seems strange to me:
- Once all players have performed the chosen action, play resumes, starting with the player on your left. So the end of the active player's turn is skipped (builder action, + siege for C1 rules) ?

Cheers!

You are interpreting the rules here literally but, as you say, other actions need to be performed before the next player's turn starts. Crop circles do not cut short the active player's turn.

I added a clarification on this to the WICA Crop Circles pages for C1 and C2. 
* C1: http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Crop_Circles_(1st_edition) (http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Crop_Circles_(1st_edition))
* C2:
http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Crop_Circles (http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Crop_Circles)

Thanks again for sharing your questions.

Cheers!
Title: Re: Order of play in french
Post by: corinthiens13 on August 01, 2019, 03:17:05 PM
Hi,

Thanks for your clarifications. Here's what I think is a contradiction :

"- If you do not have any meeples of the indicated type in play and did not place the tile, you do not perform the chosen action."

Written like this, we may think that the active player (who placed the tile) can't skip the chosen action.
I'd remove the "and did not place the tile", as it doesn't matter if you placed the tile or not, if you do not have any meeples of the indicated type, you do not perform the chosen action.

Let me know what you think  :)

Cheers!
Title: Re: Order of play in french
Post by: Meepledrone on August 01, 2019, 03:53:01 PM
Hi,

Thanks for your clarifications. Here's what I think is a contradiction :

"- If you do not have any meeples of the indicated type in play and did not place the tile, you do not perform the chosen action."

Written like this, we may think that the active player (who placed the tile) can't skip the chosen action.
I'd remove the "and did not place the tile", as it doesn't matter if you placed the tile or not, if you do not have any meeples of the indicated type, you do not perform the chosen action.

Let me know what you think  :)

Cheers!

Hi corinthiens13,

Your comment makes total sense. If you analize the wording, the "and did not place the tile" part is not necessary and is a bit misleading. I just noted that on WICA too. This caondition applies to all players.

The ZMG translation does not follow sentence by sentence the HiG rules. So it seems they rewrote the ideas behind the original text but not always hit the target.

You can check the result here for C2:

http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Crop_Circles (http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Crop_Circles)

The C1 rules are clearer and closer to the original intent IMHO.

Thanks again.

Cheers!

Cheers!
Title: Re: Order of play in french
Post by: corinthiens13 on August 02, 2019, 12:15:28 AM
Hi,

Thanks for the correction. Now that I don't have other questions, I updated the file to version 3.7 with correction of the crop circles, labyrinth and messages rules, plus a few other improvements.

Cheers !
Title: Re: Order of play in french
Post by: Meepledrone on August 02, 2019, 12:30:02 AM
Awesome!!! Looking forward to seeing the new version!  :(y)

Do not forget the C2 scoring board  ;)
Title: Re: Order of play in french
Post by: corinthiens13 on August 06, 2019, 12:33:34 PM
Awesome!!! Looking forward to seeing the new version!  :(y)

Do not forget the C2 scoring board  ;)

The C2 scoring board has also been added ;)

Cheers !
Title: Re: Order of play in french
Post by: Meepledrone on August 06, 2019, 01:22:45 PM
Nice work, corinthiens13!

Are you planning a mega-Carcassonne session to put the full document to the test?

Cheers! 
Title: Re: Order of play in french
Post by: corinthiens13 on August 06, 2019, 01:33:42 PM
Yes, on the 1st of September   :))

But I can't test Solovei Razboynik and Vodyanoy as I don't have them  :-\
Title: Re: Order of play in french
Post by: Meepledrone on August 08, 2019, 10:15:48 AM
Hi corinthiens13,

You could create a couple fan tiles to replicate the same effect  >:D

Those tiles are very difficult and expensive to get these days

Cheers!
Title: Re: Order of play in french
Post by: corinthiens13 on August 13, 2019, 01:49:36 AM
You could create a couple fan tiles to replicate the same effect  >:D

Hi,

That'd be an idea  ;)

One new question for Vodyanoy, I think we should add a note that if Vodyanoy's tile is placed next to a public bath, it doesn't affect the public bath (else it wouldn't be possible to complete any feature without losing a meeple for the rest of the game (it'd go on the public bath and then on vodyanoy and it isn't possible to get them back), that wouldn't make any sense).

I guess Vodyanoy affects every other meeples but it doesn't affect:
 - The usual "untouchable" castles, city of Carcassonne, city of Leipzig and barns
 - Neutral figures (fairy, mage, witch, dragon...etc)
 - Special figures (builder, pig, shepherd)

Is that correct ?

Cheers !
Title: Re: Order of play in french
Post by: Meepledrone on August 13, 2019, 03:56:48 PM
You could create a couple fan tiles to replicate the same effect  >:D

Hi,

That'd be an idea  ;)

One new question for Vodyanoy, I think we should add a note that if Vodyanoy's tile is placed next to a public bath, it doesn't affect the public bath (else it wouldn't be possible to complete any feature without losing a meeple for the rest of the game (it'd go on the public bath and then on vodyanoy and it isn't possible to get them back), that wouldn't make any sense).

Hi corinthiens13,

I've been researching a bit on this issue and I discovered the Vodyanoy rules in Russian allow players to remove trapped meeples the same as for Solovei Razboynik.

The German translations on CarcF are okay and they are based on the translation into English by MrNumbers posted here on CarcC.

* CarcC: http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=2852.msg43134#msg43134 (http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=2852.msg43134#msg43134)
* CarcF:
https://www.carcassonne-forum.de/viewtopic.php?t=3413#p43466 (https://www.carcassonne-forum.de/viewtopic.php?t=3413#p43466)

German Rules published on CarcF:

*
https://www.carcassonne-forum.de/viewtopic.php?f=309&t=3750 (https://www.carcassonne-forum.de/viewtopic.php?f=309&t=3750)

I don't know where rules in English, and therefore all others derived from them, missed these two details in some cases:
1. The player can remove a meeple from the Vodyanoy tile instead of placing a meeple, the same as for Solovei Razboynik. This is normally omitted as mentioned above.
2. After the Vodyanoy tile is placed, any meeple placed on tiles adjacent to the Vodyanoy tile will also be moved to the Vodyanoy tile. This is not clear in some translations and you may infer meeples are only trapped when the Vodyanoy is just placed.

So meeples will not be trapped forever but the game may turn out very tedious if after each scoring you have to rescue your meeple from Vodyanoy.

I guess Vodyanoy affects every other meeples but it doesn't affect:
 - The usual "untouchable" castles, city of Carcassonne, city of Leipzig and barns
 - Neutral figures (fairy, mage, witch, dragon...etc)
 - Special figures (builder, pig, shepherd)

Is that correct ?

Cheers !

So I have updated WICA to reflect these new findings and additional clarifications about figures affected both by Vodyamoy and Solovei Razboynik.

Note: Pigs and builders are not affected directly but if the last of their supporting meeples is removed, they will be removed and sent back to their player's supply.

I also suggested a house rule to make bathhouses immune to the Vodyanoy tile. Solovei Razboynik doesn't have the same problem with bathhouses as they are a separate feature from a road.

So I updated the following WICA pages:
* Russian Promos page: http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Russian_Promos_(1st_edition) (http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Russian_Promos_(1st_edition))
* Order of Play in all reference sections for C1, C2 and WE:
  - C1:
http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Order_of_Play_(1st_edition) (http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Order_of_Play_(1st_edition))
  - C2:
http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Order_of_Play (http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Order_of_Play)
  - WE:
http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Winter_Order_of_Play (http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Winter_Order_of_Play)

You may find some more details on the translation from Russian on the discussion page for the Russian Promos, where you can access all the original material with your own eyes.

http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Talk:Russian_Promos_(1st_edition) (http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Talk:Russian_Promos_(1st_edition))

Cheers!

EDIT: Extended information on modified pages and additional info on the translation of the Russian original rules.
Title: Re: Order of play in french
Post by: corinthiens13 on August 16, 2019, 09:57:48 AM
Hi,

Thanks for all your answers ! I updated the document to ver 3.8, corrected Solovei Razboynik and Vodyanoy's rules, plus a few other improvements.

Cheers !
Title: Re: Order of play in french
Post by: Meepledrone on August 16, 2019, 11:41:15 PM
Hi corinthiens13,

Nice work!

I just realized the Labyrinth tile on page 11 is the C1 tile. It is certainly more eye-catching than its C2 counterpart.

Cheers!
Title: Re: Order of play in french
Post by: corinthiens13 on August 16, 2019, 11:58:53 PM
Hi corinthiens13,

Nice work!

I just realized the Labyrinth tile on page 11 is the C1 tile. It is certainly more eye-catching than its C2 counterpart.

Cheers!

Hi,

Exactly, I must admit I really don't like the c2 labyrinth tile. So this one will remain c1  ;)

Cheers!
Title: Re: Order of play in french
Post by: Meepledrone on August 17, 2019, 07:36:11 AM
Well, the C1 labyrinth's green color seems closer to C2's green than the C2 labyrinth. Maybe it is just me.  ;)
Title: Re: Order of play in french
Post by: Meepledrone on August 18, 2019, 02:41:17 AM
Hi corinthiens13,

I got a comment from yezhenhan thanks to the quiz where he pointed out a misinterpretation of the scoring for roads in Markets of Leipzig. In the end, all the points provided by Markets of Leipzig are bonus points and they are applied at the end.

Just wanted to give you a heads-up so you could update the Order of Play accordingly.

I already updated WICA: Markets of Leipzig and Order of Play.

Cheers!
Title: Re: Order of play in french
Post by: corinthiens13 on August 19, 2019, 12:09:01 AM
I got a comment from yezhenhan thanks to the quiz where he pointed out a misinterpretation of the scoring for roads in Markets of Leipzig. In the end, all the points provided by Markets of Leipzig are bonus points and they are applied at the end.

Hi,

Thanks for the information. I looked at the scoring (during and at the end of the game) on WICA and I wasn't sure how to interpret it.

So market of Leipzig are, for every quarters, scored at the end of the feature's scoring (so they aren't reduced by the witch for example). But are they still part of the structure's points for wainwright and tanner's quarter (can be robbed together with the structure's points by a robber or castle), and separate of the structure's points for the bookbinders and coiners quarter (can't be robbed together with the structure's points by a robber or a castle) ?

Cheers!
Title: Re: Order of play in french
Post by: Meepledrone on August 19, 2019, 12:36:29 AM
I got a comment from yezhenhan thanks to the quiz where he pointed out a misinterpretation of the scoring for roads in Markets of Leipzig. In the end, all the points provided by Markets of Leipzig are bonus points and they are applied at the end.

Hi,

Thanks for the information. I looked at the scoring (during and at the end of the game) on WICA and I wasn't sure how to interpret it.

Hi there!

Let's see...

So market of Leipzig are, for every quarters, scored at the end of the feature's scoring (so they aren't reduced by the witch for example).

Correct.

But are they still part of the structure's points for wainwright and tanner's quarter (can be robbed together with the structure's points by a robber or castle), and separate of the structure's points for the bookbinders and coiners quarter (can't be robbed together with the structure's points by a robber or a castle) ?

Cheers!

They will part of the structure points for those players scoring the feature and also getting the bonus. So castles and robbers may steal from these points.


It is just a bonus for the other players getting the bonus without scoring the feature. So only robbers may steal from these points. Castles have no visibility of these bonus points.

Hope this clarifies the issue.

Cheers!
Title: Re: Order of play in french
Post by: corinthiens13 on August 20, 2019, 12:11:57 AM
Hi,

Thanks, so I updated the French rules and corrected the Market of Leipzig's scoring.

And just to be sure, if player A scores a town with 4 tiles (8 points), 3 pennants (+6 points) and a meeple on the coiner quarter (+ 3 points / pennant, so + 9 points), he gets 23 points. If player b has a robber beside player A's point meeple, player B gets half of all those points, including those coming from the market of Leipzig, so player B gets 12 points from his robber. And if player A has a castle next to his town, he gets twice 23 points, so 46 points. Correct ?

Cheers !
Title: Re: Order of play in french
Post by: Meepledrone on August 20, 2019, 05:04:30 AM
Correct!  :(y)

I cannot add anything but congratulate you for such a small city with so many pennants.  ;)
Title: Re: Order of play in french
Post by: yezhenhan on August 20, 2019, 04:45:21 PM
It is not clearly what is feature score.
Our family rule is easy remember.
It is feature score if you get it due to your follower normal condition(majority).
It is not feature score if you get it due to your follower special condition(not majority) .
Not belong to feature score: Darmstadt church 3 points(due to number of follower), Leipzig(due to follower on leipzig), ringmaster(due to special follower ability),fairy 3(next to fairy).
I think castle may not get the bonus due to follower special condition.

If we treat these special bonus as feature score,more new questions will arise.
1、red on road ,yellow on castle
if red score bonus due to his own special ability,can yellow get it without special ability?
if red can not score ,  can yellow get bonus with his own special ability?
2、red A on road,red B on castle
if A score bonus due to his own special ability,can B get it without special ability?
if A can not score ,  can B get bonus with his own special ability?
3、no one on road ,yellow on castle
 can yellow get bonus with his own special ability?
Title: Re: Order of play in french
Post by: Meepledrone on August 21, 2019, 03:21:19 AM
Hi yezhenhan,

It is not clearly what is feature score.
Our family rule is easy remember.
It is feature score if you get it due to your follower normal condition(majority).

OK. I agree. I also include here all bonuses added to the feature itself on top of the core feature score.

It is not feature score if you get it due to your follower special condition(not majority) .
Not belong to feature score: Darmstadt church 3 points(due to number of follower), Leipzig(due to follower on leipzig), ringmaster(due to special follower ability),fairy 3(next to fairy).
I think castle may not get the bonus due to follower special condition.

The rules specify that the following scoring events are independent from the scoring that trigger them (in this case robbers can steal points from them but castles are not affected):
- Feature-related:
  - Gingerbread Man (before the city scores)
  - Tollhouses (before the road scores)
- Figure related:
  - Watchtowers (before the city or road scores)
  - Ringmasters (after the feature scores)
  - Fairy 3-point bonus (after the feature scores)
  - Markets of Leipzig (after the road, city, monastery or field scores)
  - Darmstadt churches (after the monastery scores)

Some other scoring events are always linked as a bonus to a feature scoring (robbers may steal from them as part of the main feature being scored and affect castles too):
- Mage and Witch (for cities)
- Little Buildings (for fields and any closeable feature: roads, cities, monastic buildings,...)
- Bathhouses (for roads and cities)
- Labyrinth advanced rules (for roads)
- German Castles (for road and cities)
- Darmstadtium (for cities)
- Vineyards (for monastic buildings)

If we treat these special bonus as feature score,more new questions will arise.
1、red on road ,yellow on castle
if red score bonus due to his own special ability,can yellow get it without special ability?
if red can not score ,  can yellow get bonus with his own special ability?
2、red A on road,red B on castle
if A score bonus due to his own special ability,can B get it without special ability?
if A can not score ,  can B get bonus with his own special ability?
3、no one on road ,yellow on castle
 can yellow get bonus with his own special ability?

In a scenario with Red on a feature in a castle fief and Yellow in a castle, Yellow can only get points from a closeable feature plus its bonuses scored by Red: a city, a road, a monastic building, a German Castle, a German Cathedral,...
A scoring event not associated to a closeable feature itself will not trigger the castle scoring: watchtowers, ringmasters, acrobat pyramid, a shepherd... An exception (why not?  :o ): Circus scoring.

Any thoughts?

Cheers!

EDIT: Regrouped scoring events
Title: Re: Order of play in french
Post by: yezhenhan on August 21, 2019, 05:18:05 AM
Hi Meepledrone,
You said Yellow can only get points from a closeable feature plus its bonuses scored by Red.
I think the owner of castle get the road score just like he is the owner of the road.
Case A:red mayor in city with no pennant,yellow is normal follower in castle.I think red get 0 point,yellow get full city score.
You think red is 0 point ,yellow is 0 point.
Case B:red normal follower in city with no pennant,yellow is mayor in castle.I think red get city score,yellow get 0.
You think red get same score as yellow.
CAR7.4  Page99
The occupier of the structure and the occupier of the castle both receive the full score
for the structure.
It does not matter whether the structure completed actually scores any points.
The castle still receives points for a completed structure which is not occupied by
a follower.

In your opinion the rule should be the occupier of the castle get the same score as the occupier of the structure, it is more clearly,why not?

Would you please give me some rules to support your opinion?
Title: Re: Order of play in french
Post by: Meepledrone on August 21, 2019, 09:19:17 AM
Hi Meepledrone,
You said Yellow can only get points from a closeable feature plus its bonuses scored by Red.

I was referring here to a generic case  where Yellow is scoring a castle because Red is scoring a feature in its fief. If Red's feature has some bonuses associated to the feature being scored, Yellow will benefit from it.

Of course there may be cases where Yellow may get additional points as a side effect not directly related to the feature being scored. Red may be completing a a road in the castle fief and a monastery outside the castle fief. If Yellow has a meeple in Bookbinders quarter of Leipzig, it may score from Red road's directly and +4 points for the meeple in Leipzig as a monastery was completed.

There may be plenty of cases like this.

Additionally, Red completes a feature in the fief of a castle owned by Red two, in this case Red scores the same feature twice.  ;)

You also have all those cases with mayors that score 0 points (in a city or in a castle) as you mention below. The mayor does not modify the scoring but it cannot score the points without pennants on the feature where it is placed. This leads to the cases you mention below where players in cities and castles do not score the same points.

I think my response mislead you. I was talking about points that can be scored by a feature (core feature scoring + bonus) and can be scored by a castle as well. Another matter is whether the player with majority in the city and the castle lord score the same points.  ;)

I think the owner of castle get the road score just like he is the owner of the road.
Case A:red mayor in city with no pennant,yellow is normal follower in castle.I think red get 0 point,yellow get full city score.
You think red is 0 point ,yellow is 0 point.

Red would score 0 points (as the mayor cannot score the points with strength 0) and Yellow would score the full points for the city, as if the city was unoccupied.

Case B:red normal follower in city with no pennant,yellow is mayor in castle.I think red get city score,yellow get 0.
You think red get same score as yellow.

Red gets the city points but Yellow scores 0 as it has no strength placed on the castle (the same as in a city with no pennats). 

CAR7.4  Page99
The occupier of the structure and the occupier of the castle both receive the full score
for the structure.

The C1 rules quoted here from the CAR are explaining the rules in the context of the base game plus CB&B. No major is considered here yet.

It does not matter whether the structure completed actually scores any points.
The castle still receives points for a completed structure which is not occupied by
a follower.

This sentences refer to the fact that castles can get points from unoccupied completed features too: roads, cities, monasteries,...

In your opinion the rule should be the occupier of the castle get the same score as the occupier of the structure, it is more clearly,why not?

Would you please give me some rules to support your opinion?

I think we agree an all of this. There are several planes to this issue:
- A feature in the fief is completed.
   - What core feature points + bonus conform the total points for this scoring?
   - Are there any meeple with majority to get the points?
       - A mayor in a city without pennants may not score the points
       - A unoccupied feature scores but nobody gets the points... (unless there is a castle involved)
  - Is the castle occupied?
      - Can the castle occupier score the points from the completed feature (no matter if is was scored or not)?

And so on and so forth. As I mentioned earlier, there are other cases that allow the occupiers to score additional points not visible to castles: watchtowers, ringmasters,...

Hope this answers your questions.

===

Check these links for more information:

>>  The mayor (as lord of a castle) cannot score points for that castle, as that castle does not have any coats of arms.

- C2 Interactions of A&M with CB&C: http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Abbey_and_the_Mayor#Mayor_and_Wagon (http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Abbey_and_the_Mayor#Mayor_and_Wagon)

- C1 Notes for CB&C:
http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Bridges,_Castles_and_Bazaars_(1st_edition)#Castles (http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Bridges,_Castles_and_Bazaars_(1st_edition)#Castles)

>> A city with no pennants is occupied by the mayor acts like t mayor is not present (unoccupied in terms of scoring)

- C2 Additional Q&A:
http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Abbey_and_the_Mayor#Mayor (http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Abbey_and_the_Mayor#Mayor)

- C1 Clarification:
http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Abbey_and_the_Mayor_(1st_edition)#cite_note-27 (http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Abbey_and_the_Mayor_(1st_edition)#cite_note-27)

>> You get points from unoccupied features in the castle fief:

- C2 CB&C rules:
http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Bridges,_Castles_and_Bazaars#cite_note-11 (http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Bridges,_Castles_and_Bazaars#cite_note-11)

- C1 Notes for CB&C:
http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Bridges,_Castles_and_Bazaars_(1st_edition)#cite_note-28 (http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Bridges,_Castles_and_Bazaars_(1st_edition)#cite_note-28)

===

Cheers!
Title: Re: Order of play in french
Post by: Vital Pluymers on August 21, 2019, 12:32:32 PM
- C2 CB&C rules: http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Bridges,_Castles_and_Bazaars#cite_note-11 (http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Bridges,_Castles_and_Bazaars#cite_note-11)

- C1 Notes for CB&C:
http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Bridges,_Castles_and_Bazaars_(1st_edition)#cite_note-28 (http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Bridges,_Castles_and_Bazaars_(1st_edition)#cite_note-28)


I find the text in those footnotes a little bit confusing:

"Note that this statement essentially indicates that points are tallied for all completed features, even unoccupied ones. However, generally nobody scores (receives those points) for an unoccupied feature. (2/2015)"

The first sentence indicates that the castle owner gets points for an unoccupied completed feature, but the second sentence seems to contradict it again. "However, generally nobody (including the castle lord?) receives those points".
What is the meaning of the second sentence? Is it not better just to omit it?

How is an unoccupied completed feature scored for a Castle Lord?
I assume it gets the full score including all possible multipliers (Inns, Cathedrals, German Cathedrals, Besiegers/Cathars, Witch,...) or bonuses (Mage, Little Buildings, Darmstadt, German Castles, Wineyards,...) associated to the scoring of the feature?


But what about the Markets of Leipzig?

I was referring here to a generic case  where Yellow is scoring a castle because Red is scoring a feature in its fief. If Red's feature has some bonuses associated to the feature being scored, Yellow will benefit from it.

You stated that Yellow would receive all the bonuses associated to the scored feature. However, the Markets of Leipzig bonuses are not directly associated to the feature being scored, but are in fact associated to a player's presence in the respective markets quarters. For the Wainwrights quarter, you can only get the bonus when you have a majority on the road being scored. For the Coiners quarter, you need to be present in the city being scored. So, unless a Castle Lord has also meeples on the road of city being scored, he can never receive the Wainwrights or Coiners quarter bonuses. Right?

I think scoring for a fairy would work in the same way. You can only get this bonus if the fairy is standing next to your meeple. A fairy in a unoccupied completed feature would give no points to the Castle Lord either.

What are your thoughts?
Title: Re: Order of play in french
Post by: yezhenhan on August 21, 2019, 03:12:26 PM
Hi Meepledrone,

For example:Red A on finished monastery.yellow A on castle next it.Both red B and yellow B on Bookbinders quarter.
I think both red and yellow player score 13(red A and yellow A score 9, red B and yellow B score 4)
In your opinion,red score 13,yellow score 17(4+13)
Let me tell you a story according your opinion.maybe you will understand my opinion.
Red king get 13 points ,so he decide reward the follower,he give red A 13$,red B no money.
Yellow king get 17 points(according your opinion) ,so he decide reward the follower,he give yellow A 13$,yellow B 4$.

Red B say:it is unfair,yellow B is next to me,he get 4$,why I have not?  I go to the market ,I help you get points,not red A.
Red king think red B is right ,so give red B 4$,give red A 9$.
Red A say:it is unfair,yellow A is next to me,he get 13$,only 9$ for me, why Yellow A get more 4$ than me just due to red B? Both I and yellow A did not go to the market.


I think castle is powerful enough,if castle can steal every bonus,it is too much powerful ,we should balance it .
Title: Re: Order of play in french
Post by: corinthiens13 on August 23, 2019, 01:07:02 AM
Hi everyone,

One thought after reading all your opinions on castle's matters, I'd like your opinion on this proposition that may be easier and, I think, may fit the rules :

If a feature has been completed in a castle's fief :
1. Castles are scored first (we all agree on that I guess)

2. The owner of the castle scores the structure just as if his castle meeple was on the structure and was the only meeple present on the structure, and so, no matter if the structure was owned by any other players :

3. Then the owner(s) of the feature (if there is one) scores it using normal rules, independently from the castle (even if the feature's owner is the same color than the castle's owner)

Cheers !

Title: Re: Order of play in french
Post by: yezhenhan on August 23, 2019, 06:25:23 PM
Hi corinthiens13

You said
1, Castles are scored first

why?
I think same time if two features belong to different players. You can choose the order if two featurea belong to same player.


You said
2,as if his castle meeple was on the structure and was the only meeple present on the structure.

I think as if he is the owner of the structure is ok. Your words maybe conflict with labyrinths.

You said
2,B. The castle's owner gets the bonuses :Darmstadt churches

I think Darmstadt church bonus belong to the player have most number of followers,not belong to castle owner
Title: Re: Order of play in french
Post by: corinthiens13 on August 24, 2019, 12:33:52 AM
You said
1, Castles are scored first

why?
I think same time if two features belong to different players. You can choose the order if two featurea belong to same player.

The RGG version of the rules states that the castle scores “when the first feature … in the vicinity of the castle is later completed”, so it is scored directly after a feature is completed, and thus it is scored before counting the points for any other feature.

It's also based on the WICA order of play that states "Each player receiving points chooses the order in which his or her features resolve. Exception: A castle must be resolved immediately after any feature which triggers its completion."

You said
2,as if his castle meeple was on the structure and was the only meeple present on the structure.

I think as if he is the owner of the structure is ok. Your words maybe conflict with labyrinths.

That's right, ok for "as if he is the owner of the structure"

You said
2,B. The castle's owner gets the bonuses :Darmstadt churches

I think Darmstadt church bonus belong to the player have most number of followers, not belong to castle owner

Correct, Darmstadt church bonus has to be moved to points C and D.

So here's my corrected proposition:

If a feature has been completed in a castle's fief :
1. Castles are scored first (we all agree on that I guess)

2. The owner of the castle scores the structure just as if he is the owner of the structure, and so, no matter if the structure was owned by any other players :

3. Then the owner(s) of the feature (if there is one) scores it using normal rules, independently from the castle (even if the feature's owner is the same color than the castle's owner)

Cheers !
Title: Re: Order of play in french
Post by: yezhenhan on August 24, 2019, 04:50:18 AM
Hi corinthiens13

I have not the RGG version.
CAR7.4 page99 :The castle is only considered to have been completed when a structure (cloister, city,
road, or another castle) which lies on at least one of the six adjacent tiles is completed.

I think this rule is right.Not mention the castle score first,just completed at same time.

You said:
The WICA order of play that states "Each player receiving points chooses the order in which his or her features resolve.

It is right,so I can choose castle later.

You said:
Exception: A castle must be resolved immediately after any feature which triggers its completion.

This rule may not mean castle score first.
For example,city A and road B is in the vicinity of castle C,all belong to one player,all finished.
Now you choose the order for receive points.
It is permitted:A--C--B, or B--C--A
It is forbidden:A--B--C,or B--A--C ,because once you choose A,the castle C must after its score immediately.

Maybe I am wrong because english is not my native language.
If the exception is mean castle first ,I don’t understand the reason for make this rule.Do you know the reason?
Title: Re: Order of play in french
Post by: Meepledrone on August 25, 2019, 04:18:10 AM
Hi corinthiens13!

You said
1, Castles are scored first

why?
I think same time if two features belong to different players. You can choose the order if two featurea belong to same player.

The RGG version of the rules states that the castle scores “when the first feature … in the vicinity of the castle is later completed”, so it is scored directly after a feature is completed, and thus it is scored before counting the points for any other feature.

It's also based on the WICA order of play that states "Each player receiving points chooses the order in which his or her features resolve. Exception: A castle must be resolved immediately after any feature which triggers its completion."

That's correct.

Imagine you (Red) place a tile in a castle fief that completes a city with a watchtower and a road with a ringmaster. When you start evaluating the features you the castle owner will decide the order. Depending on the owner of the castle you may decide to minimize or maximize the points scored by the castle The castle owner will try to maximize their score ;). See the picture attached.

As you can see:
* The watchtower scores 4 points
* The city scores 12 points
   - Core feature scoring: 8 points
   - Bonus: 4 points
      - Mage: 3 points
      - Little Building: 1 point with basic rules
* The road scores 5 points
   - Core feature scoring: 2 points
   - Bonus: 3 points (Fairy)
* Ringmaster scores 2 points.

Scenario 1: If the castle is yours, you (Red) want to get as many points as possible. You would evaluate in the following order:
1. Watchtower --> 4 points for Red
2. City --> 12 points for Red
3. Castle --> 12 points for Red from the city.Tthe watchtower is scored before the road/city it is associated to but it does not trigger the castle scoring
4. Road --> 5 points for Red
5. Ringmaster --> 2 points for Red

Red scores 4 + 12 + 12 + 5 + 2 =  35 points
Blue scores 0 points

Scenario 2: If the castle belongs to Blue so you want to minimize the points scored by Blue's castle. You would evaluate in the following order, Blue would instruct you to score in the following order to maximize his score:
1. Road --> 5 points for Red
2. Castle --> 5 points from the road for Blue
3. Ringmaster --> 2 points for Red
4. Watchtower --> 4 points for Red
5. City --> 12 points for Red

Red scores 5 + 2 + 4 + 12 =  23 points

If Red had scored the city first, Blue would have scored 12 points instead of 5 points.


1. Watchtower --> 4 points for Red
2. City --> 12 points for Red
3. Castle --> 12 points for Blue from the city. The watchtower is scored before the road/city it is associated to but it does not trigger the castle scoring
4. Road --> 5 points for Red
5. Ringmaster --> 2 points for Red

Red scores 4 + 12 + 5 + 2 =  23 points
Blue scores 12 points

So the idea behind all this is that:
* If several features are scored in a castle fief, you may decide the order of evaluation according to your interests depending on the context
* If several features are scored in a castle fief, the castle owner will decide the order of evaluation according to their interests
* The castle will be scored right after a feature triggering the castle scoring.
* Features scored may combine core feature points plus bonus points as one scoring event (City + Mage + Little Buildings, for example). These points will be scored in full by a castle
* The castle ignores features/figures providing any independent bonus points so they do not triggering the castle scoring, such as the watchtower.

You said
2,as if his castle meeple was on the structure and was the only meeple present on the structure.

I think as if he is the owner of the structure is ok. Your words maybe conflict with labyrinths.

That's right, ok for "as if he is the owner of the structure"

You said
2,B. The castle's owner gets the bonuses :Darmstadt churches

I think Darmstadt church bonus belong to the player have most number of followers, not belong to castle owner

Correct, Darmstadt church bonus has to be moved to points C and D.

So here's my corrected proposition:

If a feature has been completed in a castle's fief :
1. Castles are scored first (we all agree on that I guess)

You have to choose wisely, as you've seen above. No always the castle will work in your favor so the evaluation order can be important.

2. The owner of the castle scores the structure just as if he is the owner of the structure, and so, no matter if the structure was owned by any other players :
  • A. The castle's owner gets 0 points if he had a mayor and the structure isn't a city with pennants (city without pennants, cloister, road...etc)
    • He may still get bonuses that are Independent from the scoring:
      • Not watchtowers as the castle's meeple isn't specifically on any watchtower tile
      • Fairy 3-point if associated to the castle's meeple (if fairy + castle meeple is allowed, there's different rules about this)
      • Markets of Leipzig (monasteries only as other quarters requires a meeple on the structure)
     
  • Following points are only if condition A isn't met:
  • B. The castle's owner gets the core feature points, including bonuses linked to the scoring such as:
    • Mage and Witch (for cities)
    • Little Buildings
    • Bathhouses (for roads and cities)
    • Labyrinths advanced rules (for roads)
    • German Castles (for road and cities)
    • Darmstadtium (for cities)
    • Vineyards (for monastic buildings)
Just a note: Mage and Witch (for roads and cities)

 
  • C. The castle's owner gets points that are linked to his own meeples:
    • Darmstadt churches
    • Not watchtowers as the castle's meeple isn't specifically on any watchtower tile
    • Ringmaster (if it's a ringmaster on the castle)
    • Fairy 3-point (if associated to the castle's meeple (if fairy + castle meeple is allowed, there's different rules about this)
    • Markets of Leipzig (road, cities, monasteries)
There are three things that caught my eye when checking the rules of Exp. 10 - Under the Big Top:
1. You may place the ringmaster on a castle, but the rules didn't specify how to score in a fief. So far WICA is assuming ringmasters cannot score when placed on a castle as it is not placed on a specific tile.
2. The circus can trigger a castle scoring. IMHO this is an exception as it is not a tile-based feature that players have to complete. The circus is scored when another circus tile is placed or at the end of the game before final scoring.
3. Acrobat pyramids cannot trigger a castle scoring, on the other hand. In this case, it is a reusable figure-based feature that players have to complete.

 
  • D. The castle's owner doesn't get any points that are linked to meeples present on the feature:
    • Darmstadt churches
    • Watchtowers
    • Ringmasters
    • Fairy 3-point bonus
    • Markets of Leipzig (roads, cities, monasteries)

Ringmasters and watchtowers are independent bonus by definition, so a castle will never get points from them.
The other cases (Darmstadt churches, Fairy 3-point bonus and Markets of Leipzig for roads, cities and monasteries) work in a dual way:
i. When associated to a meeple scoring the feature, the bonus is added to the feature scoring and therefore the castle gets the bonus points through the feature.
ii. When associated to a meeple not scoring the feature, the independent bonus is not visible to the castle.

I understand bullet (ii) is the case you consider in section D above. So with "meeples present on the feature" you mean meeples present but without majority, right? If so, this cannot apply to Markets of Leipzig for roads.

3. Then the owner(s) of the feature (if there is one) scores it using normal rules, independently from the castle (even if the feature's owner is the same color than the castle's owner)

Cheers !

Cheers![/list][/list]

EDIT: The Castle owner decides the order of evaluation of features in its fief.
Title: Re: Order of play in french
Post by: Meepledrone on August 25, 2019, 07:11:29 AM
Hi all,

The WICA Scoring Summary pages now include  annotations about what features can trigger a castle scoring (marked with a small castle token):
* Scoring During the Game for C1/C2/WE
* Scoring After the Game for C1/C2/WE

Check, for example, the C2 versions here:
* Scoring During the Game: http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Scoring_During_the_Game (http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Scoring_During_the_Game)
* Scoring After the Game:
http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Scoring_After_the_Game (http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Scoring_After_the_Game)

Please, use tab "Filters" to select all the editions and the preferred edition (the one taking preference for graphics and rules) and then use tab "Quick Selectors" to select all the expansions by clicking the "Select All" button. You will see the information for all the expansions combined. The Expansion Selector at the top of those pages allows you to select expansions in full or by parts in some cases.

Cheers!
Title: Re: Order of play in french
Post by: Meepledrone on August 25, 2019, 07:58:37 AM
Hi corinthiens13

I have not the RGG version.
CAR7.4 page99 :The castle is only considered to have been completed when a structure (cloister, city,
road, or another castle) which lies on at least one of the six adjacent tiles is completed.

I think this rule is right.Not mention the castle score first,just completed at same time.

You said:
The WICA order of play that states "Each player receiving points chooses the order in which his or her features resolve.

It is right,so I can choose castle later.

You said:
Exception: A castle must be resolved immediately after any feature which triggers its completion.

This rule may not mean castle score first.
For example,city A and road B is in the vicinity of castle C,all belong to one player,all finished.
Now you choose the order for receive points.
It is permitted:A--C--B, or B--C--A, or C--A--B,or C--B--A
It is forbidden:A--B--C,or B--A--C ,because once you choose A,the castle C must after its score immediately.

Maybe I am wrong because english is not my native language.
If the exception is mean castle first ,I don’t understand the reason for make this rule.Do you know the reason?

Hi yezhenhan,

The castle must score the points for the first feature evaluated on a castle fief. You The castle lord will decide what the scoring order is. So, in this case, the evaluation order of the features in the fief is either A--B or B--A. Therefore the castle scores right after the first feature and the possible orders of evaluation are A--C--B and B--C--A.

Invalid options are:
* A--B--C and B--A--C ==> The castle scoring cannot be delayed (arbitrarily.)
* C--A--B and C--B--A ==> The castle scoring cannot be the first feature evaluated as it required a previous feature evaluation to score the same points. 

Hope this helps.

Cheers!

EDIT: The Castle owner decides the order of evaluation of features in its fief.
Title: Re: Order of play in french
Post by: corinthiens13 on August 25, 2019, 08:27:54 AM
Hi,

You have to choose wisely, as you've seen above. No always the castle will work in your favor so the evaluation order can be important.

Ok, so castles aren't scored first, but they are scored directly after the first triggering feature that has been scored in its fief (and so before scoring any other structure).

Just a note: Mage and Witch (for roads and cities)
That's right !

1. You may place the ringmaster on a castle, but the rules didn't specify how to score in a fief. So far WICA is assuming ringmasters cannot score when placed on a castle as it is not placed on a specific tile.
I didn't think about that, but I think I agree with WICA

Ringmasters and watchtowers are independent bonus by definition, so a castle will never get points from them.
The other cases (Darmstadt churches, Fairy 3-point bonus and Markets of Leipzig for roads, cities and monasteries) work in a dual way:
i. When associated to a meeple scoring the feature, the bonus is added to the feature scoring and therefore the castle gets the bonus points through the feature.
ii. When associated to a meeple not scoring the feature, the independent bonus is not visible to the castle.

I understand bullet (ii) is the case you consider in section D above. So with "meeples present on the feature" you mean meeples present but without majority, right? If so, this cannot apply to Markets of Leipzig for roads.
My proposition would be that the Castle's owner do only get points from the core structure (bullet b) and points that are linked to his own meeple (bullet C), but not any points linked to meeples present on the structure, even those with majority.
I think this may fit the official rules (to my knowledge) and it is easier to understand and to evaluate during the game. Because otherwise, if castle meeple may get bonus points linked to meeples with majority on the tile (leipzig, fairy, Darmstadt), it can lead to complex situation:

Situation:
Road scored in a castle's fief, red owns the road, blue owns the castle.
This is, I think, complicated and so with my proposition:

Situation:
Road scored in a castle's fief, red owns the road, blue owns the castle.

They simply have bonuses linked to their own meeples, it's easier to understand, doesn't lead to different way of counting castle points if the triggering structure is occupied or not. The question is: Do the official rules contradicts this way of counting castle's points?



And so here's my corrected proposition for counting castles:

If a feature has been completed in a castle's fief :

1. The owner(s) of the feature (if there is one) scores it using normal rules, independently from the castle (even if the feature's owner is the same color than the castle's owner)

2. Castles are scored directly after the first triggering feature that has been scored in its fief (and so before scoring any other structure)

3. The owner of the castle scores the structure just as if he is the owner of the structure, and so, no matter if the structure was owned by any other players :

Cheers !
Title: Re: Order of play in french
Post by: yezhenhan on August 25, 2019, 06:08:42 PM
Hi Meepledrone,

You said:
C--A--B and C--B--A are invalid options.

you are right.(if ABC belong to one player)I update my reply.
Thank you very much.


You said:
The circus can trigger a castle scoring.

Why?
I think the circus is bonus for the follower in the castle ,it is not belong to castle scoring. A new circus tile trigger the circus bonus.

You said:
WICA is assuming ringmasters cannot score when placed on a castle as it is not placed on a specific tile.

I don’t think so. For each Circus and Acrobat tile that your ringmaster is on or adjacent to, score 2 points. Six tiles are adjacent to the castle,so six tiles are adjacent to the ringmaster.when ringmaster is in the castle,for each Circus and Acrobat tile adjacent to the castle,score 2 points.If you think he get 0 bonus ,he will say:why  ignore my ability?



Scenario 2.
you think if red choose road resolve first ,the blue in castle must only score the road.

It is not right.If all feature belong to one player,he can decide the order,if not,no player can decide others choose.In this case,road and city belong to red,castle belong to blue.Because blue is in the castle ,as if blue is also the owner of the road and city.

CAR7.4 page 100
Should the placement of a tile simultaneously complete more than one structure adjacent to the castle, the occupier of the castle may decide which of them to receive points for. A castle receives points for only one completed structure.

So blue in castle can decide which of them to receive points for. He can choose city score or road score as if he is the owner of the city and road.

The rule write "each" player choose the order,it is not mean only one player choose the order and other player must follow it .

Red get 2 point for road and 3 point for the follower next fairy.
Blue in castle can decide to get the city score or the road score,but he can not get the fairy 3.
Title: Re: Order of play in french
Post by: Meepledrone on August 26, 2019, 04:03:39 AM
Hi Meepledrone,

You said:
C--A--B and C--B--A are invalid options.

you are right.(if ABC belong to one player)I update my reply.
Thank you very much.


You said:
The circus can trigger a castle scoring.

Why?
I think the circus is bonus for the follower in the castle ,it is not belong to castle scoring. A new circus tile trigger the circus bonus.

Check the rules for the interaction between Exp 8 and Exp 10 here:

http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Under_the_Big_Top#Circus_tiles.2C_animal_tokens_and_the_big_top_2 (http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Under_the_Big_Top#Circus_tiles.2C_animal_tokens_and_the_big_top_2)

The rules say:

Quote
If at least one tile forming a castle is adjacent to the Big Top, a meeple in that castle will score points when a circus is scored.

So the castle will score the circus points.

You said:
WICA is assuming ringmasters cannot score when placed on a castle as it is not placed on a specific tile.

I don’t think so. For each Circus and Acrobat tile that your ringmaster is on or adjacent to, score 2 points. Six tiles are adjacent to the castle,so six tiles are adjacent to the ringmaster.when ringmaster is in the castle,for each Circus and Acrobat tile adjacent to the castle,score 2 points.If you think he get 0 bonus ,he will say:why  ignore my ability?

I agree with you this would be the logical approach but, unless HiG clarifies this case, it would be a house rule. I'm a bit conservative in this matter as HiG exploits in different ways the fact the the castle is not in a specific tile so the meeples in the castle cannot be affected by the dragon, the tower, the plague,... and there is no mention of interaction of the ringmaster with castles in the Exp. 10 rules.

Scenario 2.
you think if red choose road resolve first ,the blue in castle must only score the road.

It is not right.If all feature belong to one player,he can decide the order,if not,no player can decide others choose.In this case,road and city belong to red,castle belong to blue.Because blue is in the castle ,as if blue is also the owner of the road and city.

CAR7.4 page 100
Should the placement of a tile simultaneously complete more than one structure adjacent to the castle, the occupier of the castle may decide which of them to receive points for. A castle receives points for only one completed structure.

So blue in castle can decide which of them to receive points for. He can choose city score or road score as if he is the owner of the city and road.

The rule write "each" player choose the order,it is not mean only one player choose the order and other player must follow it .

Red get 2 point for road and 3 point for the follower next fairy.
Blue in castle can decide to get the city score or the road score,but he can not get the fairy 3.

I checked the rules for C2 too and you are right.

Quote
If a tile is placed that causes multiple features that are neighboring your castle to be completed at the same time, you decide what order they are scored. As always, you only score points for the first feature.

I mixed the castle and the robber rules in my head. My bad.

Note: I will edit my previous email on this matter to correct my mistake.
Title: Re: Order of play in french
Post by: corinthiens13 on August 27, 2019, 12:38:10 PM
I agree with you this would be the logical approach but, unless HiG clarifies this case, it would be a house rule. I'm a bit conservative in this matter as HiG exploits in different ways the fact the the castle is not in a specific tile so the meeples in the castle cannot be affected by the dragon, the tower, the plague,... and there is no mention of interaction of the ringmaster with castles in the Exp. 10 rules.

Maybe an approach that may fit the (incomplete) official rules could be :

What do you think ?

Cheers !
Title: Re: Order of play in french
Post by: Meepledrone on August 27, 2019, 03:52:36 PM
Hi corinthiens13,

I agree with you this would be the logical approach but, unless HiG clarifies this case, it would be a house rule. I'm a bit conservative in this matter as HiG exploits in different ways the fact the the castle is not in a specific tile so the meeples in the castle cannot be affected by the dragon, the tower, the plague,... and there is no mention of interaction of the ringmaster with castles in the Exp. 10 rules.

Maybe an approach that may fit the (incomplete) official rules could be :
  • Any action affecting a specific tile (dragon, plague, tower, goldmines?, little buildings) do not interact with a meeple on a castle as he isn't on a specific tile

Correct.

  • But for any action a meeple can do with adjacent tiles (ringmaster bonus, fruit trees, circus), a meeple on a castle may also have it but for the 6 adjacent tiles only

* Fruit actions are associated to the placement of a meeple on a new fruit-bearing tree tile or on a new tile adjacent to the tree tile. So I can't see a case where a meeple on a castle can comply with these requirements for its fief. Acrobats are a similar case.
* A circus scoring affects all meeples on the circus tile or on adjacent tiles. I understand that you would like to include any meeple in a castle overlapping any of the 9 tiles centered in the circus tile. I would rule out this option for the same reasons as the tower (to name one reference.)
* The ringmaster on a castle could score its bonus on the castle fief as a house rule. The rules don't cover this case so I assume it is not officially considered as I commented earlier.

What do you think ?

Cheers !

If I'm missing something, please let me know.

Cheers!
Title: Re: Order of play in french
Post by: corinthiens13 on August 30, 2019, 12:50:28 AM
* Fruit actions are associated to the placement of a meeple on a new fruit-bearing tree tile or on a new tile adjacent to the tree tile. So I can't see a case where a meeple on a castle can comply with these requirements for its fief. Acrobats are a similar case.
Well, I thought when placing a meeple on a castle, you can get fruits if a tree's on the 6 adjacent tiles.
But on second thought, I realised you never really place a meeple on a castle, you place it on a small city tile and then you change it to a castle and move the meeple on the castle (both on the same turn, or on different turns if the meeple had been placed on the 1st half of the city). So fruits can be harvested if present on the 8 tiles adjacent to the city tile on which the meeple has been placed (or on the tile itself). As you said, the castle doesn't interact with this.

* A circus scoring affects all meeples on the circus tile or on adjacent tiles. I understand that you would like to include any meeple in a castle overlapping any of the 9 tiles centered in the circus tile. I would rule out this option for the same reasons as the tower (to name one reference.)
* The ringmaster on a castle could score its bonus on the castle fief as a house rule. The rules don't cover this case so I assume it is not officially considered as I commented earlier.

To my point of view, those two actions are different than towers, dragon...etc as they are based on adjacent tiles and not on a specific tile. Tiles in a castle's fief may be considered as adjacent to the castle, and so the ringmaster may score its bonus, and a circus present on in a castle's fief completes the castle.

I know the official rules doesn't say anything about what tiles are considered adjacent to the castle, but I think saying a castle has a fief but no adjacent tiles is as much a house rule than saying the fief and adjacent tiles are the same 6 tiles (or do I miss something?).

So to me:

What do you think ? Is there any contradiction I'm missing about this in the official rules?


Oh, and one of my previous post remained an open question about what points are counted:

My proposition would be that the Castle's owner do only get points from the core structure (bullet b) and points that are linked to his own meeple (bullet C), but not any points linked to meeples present on the structure, even those with majority.
I think this may fit the official rules (to my knowledge) and it is easier to understand and to evaluate during the game. Because otherwise, if castle meeple may get bonus points linked to meeples with majority on the tile (leipzig, fairy, Darmstadt), it can lead to complex situation:

Situation with (if I understood it correctly) your explanations :
Road scored in a castle's fief, red owns the road, blue owns the castle.
This is, I think, too complicated and hard to understand for players that didn't hardly study the rules.

Situation with my understanding of the rules:
Same road scored in a castle's fief, red owns the road, blue owns the castle.

They simply have bonuses linked to their own meeples, it's easier to understand, doesn't lead to different way of counting castle points if the triggering structure is occupied or not. The question is: Do the official rules contradicts this way of counting castle's points?


This would lead to this order of scoring a castle:
If one or more features have been completed in a castle's fief, the castle's owner choses from which he gets points:

1. The owner(s) (if there is one or more) of the feature scores it using normal rules, independently from the castle (even if the feature's owner is the same color than the castle's owner)

2. The castle is scored directly after the feature from which he gets points

3. The owner of the castle scores the structure just as if he is the owner of the structure, and so, no matter if the structure was owned by any other players :

Cheers !
Title: Re: Order of play in french
Post by: yezhenhan on August 30, 2019, 03:10:01 AM
Hi Meepledrone and corinthiens13,

I learn a lot from both of you.
+1 merit for you.

Title: Re: Order of play in french
Post by: corinthiens13 on August 30, 2019, 04:18:25 AM
Hi Meepledrone and corinthiens13,

I learn a lot from both of you.
+1 merit for you.

Hi,

I learned a lot from Meepledrone too ;)
Title: Re: Order of play in french
Post by: Meepledrone on August 30, 2019, 08:15:03 AM
Hi corinthiens13,

* Fruit actions are associated to the placement of a meeple on a new fruit-bearing tree tile or on a new tile adjacent to the tree tile. So I can't see a case where a meeple on a castle can comply with these requirements for its fief. Acrobats are a similar case.
Well, I thought when placing a meeple on a castle, you can get fruits if a tree's on the 6 adjacent tiles.
But on second thought, I realised you never really place a meeple on a castle, you place it on a small city tile and then you change it to a castle and move the meeple on the castle (both on the same turn, or on different turns if the meeple had been placed on the 1st half of the city). So fruits can be harvested if present on the 8 tiles adjacent to the city tile on which the meeple has been placed (or on the tile itself). As you said, the castle doesn't interact with this.

Bear also in mind that Fruit actions take place during the 2. Placing a Meeple phase while the placement of a meeple on the castle happens during the 3. Scoring phase. Thus the "timing" is not right even if you build the castle on the same tile as the meeple. In any case you would perform the Fruit action after placing the tile but before you place the castle and the meeple on it.

* A circus scoring affects all meeples on the circus tile or on adjacent tiles. I understand that you would like to include any meeple in a castle overlapping any of the 9 tiles centered in the circus tile. I would rule out this option for the same reasons as the tower (to name one reference.)
* The ringmaster on a castle could score its bonus on the castle fief as a house rule. The rules don't cover this case so I assume it is not officially considered as I commented earlier.

To my point of view, those two actions are different than towers, dragon...etc as they are based on adjacent tiles and not on a specific tile. Tiles in a castle's fief may be considered as adjacent to the castle, and so the ringmaster may score its bonus, and a circus present on in a castle's fief completes the castle.

The rules do not define adjacency in these terms but the CAR does (check CAR v7.4, page 282):

Quote

adjacent

...

For a castle, adjacent means on one of the two tiles on which the castle itself stand, the two to its left, or the two to its right: a total of six tile.

...


So here we are saved by the bell.

I know the official rules doesn't say anything about what tiles are considered adjacent to the castle, but I think saying a castle has a fief but no adjacent tiles is as much a house rule than saying the fief and adjacent tiles are the same 6 tiles (or do I miss something?).

So to me:
  • A castle isn't on a tile, so any actions affecting a specific tile doesn't affect the castle
  • The 6 tiles around the castle are considered adjacent to it (reason why a circus on those tiles triggers the castle's scoring) and so a ringmaster may have his bonus when scoring a castle (considering only the 6 adjacent tiles)

What do you think ? Is there any contradiction I'm missing about this in the official rules?

I agree with you that the reasonable way to score a ringmaster on a castle is to take into account any meeple placed in the castle fief. My only consideration here is that this being a special case worth mentioning, neither the Expansion 8 rules nor the Expansion 10 rules dedicate a single sentence to this relevant case. If so, I suspect that HiG is not considering this interaction.

I see this case in a similar way to the placement of a meeple on an unoccupied castle via a magic portal. It could be a reasonable extension of the rules (you may use the magic portal to claim an unoccupied uncompleted feature on a tile placed on this turn or any previous one - unless the feature is completed by the placement of the magic portal tile) but no rule or official clarification allows players to place a meeple on an unoccupied castle through a magic portal. So this possibility is ruled out.

Thus, unless HiG clarifies the interaction, my interpretation is that ringmasters placed in castles do not get ringmaster points as a trade off for becoming a castle lord, although I see more than reasonable the adaptation of the scoring from 9-tile area to the 6-tile fief.

I have searched the rules, CarcC and CarcF for a confirmation or denial of the ringmaster scoring with the ringmaster placed in a castle to no avail. If anyone can shed some light on this case. I would appreciate it.

Oh, and one of my previous post remained an open question about what points are counted:

My proposition would be that the Castle's owner do only get points from the core structure (bullet b) and points that are linked to his own meeple (bullet C), but not any points linked to meeples present on the structure, even those with majority.

I agree but I think it is simpler that that. The castle will score the points of the feature in the fief scoring the maximum number of points (that will be the one scored first ;) ). If several players share the majority and one scores more than the other (for example due to the Fairy), the castle will score the same points of the highest score for that feature. The feature score will consist of core feature scoring plus any bonuses applicable to the player's presence in the feature such as:
* Mage and Witch (for road and cities)
* Little Buildings (for roads, cities, monasteries,...)
* Bathhouses (for roads and cities)
* Labyrinths advanced rules (for roads)
* German Castles (for road and cities)
* Darmstadtium (for cities)
* Vineyards (for monastic buildings)
* 3-point fairy scoring bonus (for roads, cities, monasteries,...)
* Markets of Leipzig (for road, cities, monasteries).

Additionally, the castle lord's player may get other bonuses, the same as any other player due to the game mechanics for various features and bonuses. (These bonuses can come even from features outside the fief):
* 3-point fairy scoring bonus (for fairy placed next the player's meeple on a feature being scored - including the castle)
* Teacher bonus (if the player has the Teacher)
* Watchtower bonus (if the player had a meeple placed on the Watchtower tile of any road or city scored)
* Ringmaster points (if any feature scored in the fief contained the player's ringmaster)
* Darmstadt churches (if the castle lord's player had the majority in their vicinity) 
* Markets of Leipzig (bonus for cities or monasteries - not roads)

In a nutshell, I wouldn't try to push the analysis of all the scoring cases through the castle. It is much simpler than that. Think of a feature being scored and a castle getting the same points (black box mode: the castle knows nothing about the origin of the points.) Just that. The other bonuses (except for the fairy next to the castle lord) don't go to the castle lord, they go to the player due to the context in the game.

I'm trying to keep all this as simple as possible.

Note: If several castle fiefs overlap, all the castles will get the same points. It will be like a chain reaction. So pick the highest scoring feature and once you calculate the score, score the castles, and proceed "normally" with other bonuses and scored features. There is no weird mechanisms involved in all this.

I think this may fit the official rules (to my knowledge) and it is easier to understand and to evaluate during the game. Because otherwise, if castle meeple may get bonus points linked to meeples with majority on the tile (leipzig, fairy, Darmstadt), it can lead to complex situation:

Situation with (if I understood it correctly) your explanations :
Road scored in a castle's fief, red owns the road, blue owns the castle.
  • If blue has a meeple on the road section of Leipzig, he gets the bonus
  • If red has a meeple on the road section of Leipzig, both red and blue get the bonus, but if, for the same road and castle, the road isn't occupied when it's completed, blue doesn't have the same points as he doesn't get the bonus
  • If both have a meeple on the road section of Leipzig, red gets the bonus, and blue should get it twice but it's limited to once so he gets it only once
This is, I think, too complicated and hard to understand for players that didn't hardly study the rules.

Situation with my understanding of the rules:
Same road scored in a castle's fief, red owns the road, blue owns the castle.
  • If blue has a meeple on the road section of Leipzig, blue gets the bonus
  • If red has a meeple on the road section of Leipzig, red gets the bonus
  • If both have a meeple on the road section of Leipzig, both red and blue get the bonus

They simply have bonuses linked to their own meeples, it's easier to understand, doesn't lead to different way of counting castle points if the triggering structure is occupied or not. The question is: Do the official rules contradicts this way of counting castle's points?

The game mechanics would be as follows: Red scores the road first and Blue, the castle owner, gets the same points.

Red is the only one getting the bonus directly.  Red has the majority in road and has a meeple in Wainwrights quarter. Blue, the castle owner, gets the very same points as the Red for the road but no additional bonus from Leipzig. Blue is not present on the road.

All in all:
* Red scores X points (core feature score + road bonus from Leipzig)
* Blue scores X points the same points as Red for the road. Blue itself is not present on the road so no bonus points from Leipzig are possible.

IMHO it is straightforward.

This would lead to this order of scoring a castle:
If one or more features have been completed in a castle's fief, the castle's owner choses from which he gets points:

1. The owner(s) (if there is one or more) of the feature scores it using normal rules, independently from the castle (even if the feature's owner is the same color than the castle's owner)

2. The castle is scored directly after the feature from which he gets points

3. The owner of the castle scores the structure just as if he is the owner of the structure, and so, no matter if the structure was owned by any other players :
  • A. The castle's owner gets 0 points if he had a mayor and the structure isn't a city with pennants (city without pennants, cloister, road...etc)
    • He may still get bonuses that are Independent from the scoring:
      • Not watchtowers as the castle's meeple isn't specifically on any watchtower tile
      • Fairy 3-point if associated to the castle's meeple (if fairy + castle meeple is allowed, there's different rules about this)
      • Markets of Leipzig (monasteries only as other quarters requires a meeple on the structure)
     
  • Following points are only if condition A isn't met:
  • B. The castle's owner gets the core feature points, including bonuses linked to the scoring such as:
    • Mage and Witch (for road and cities)
    • Little Buildings
    • Bathhouses (for roads and cities)
    • Labyrinths advanced rules (for roads)
    • German Castles (for road and cities)
    • Darmstadtium (for cities)
    • Vineyards (for monastic buildings)
     
  • C. The castle's owner gets points that are linked to his own meeples:
    • Darmstadt churches
    • Not watchtowers as the castle's meeple isn't specifically on any watchtower tile
    • Not ringmaster as the castle meeple isn't on a specific tile or including ringmaster but considering the 6 adjacent tiles, this has to be clarified
    • Fairy 3-point (if associated to the castle's meeple (if fairy + castle meeple is allowed, there's different rules about this)
    • Markets of Leipzig (road, cities, monasteries)
     
  • D. The castle's owner doesn't get any points that are linked to meeples present on the feature (even the owner of the feature):
    • Darmstadt churches
    • Watchtowers
    • Ringmasters
    • Fairy 3-point bonus
    • Markets of Leipzig (roads, cities, monasteries)

Cheers !

My recommendation is to keep castle scoring as simple as possible:
1. Tally the points for the feature triggering the castle scoring.
    - If several features and/or meeples are involved, pick the highest score for the feature/meeple combination.
2. Score the points for all the players with majority on the feature picked
    - Any bonuses preceding the feature scoring should be performed first (watchtowers, Gingerbread Man,...) - These points do not affect castles
    - Any bonuses after the feature scoring should be performed last (ringmaster scoring,...) - These points do not affect castles
3. Score the points foe the castle(s) involved.
    - Any bonuses affecting castle lords will be taken into consideration (Fairy)
4. Proceed with the scoring of any other feature involved.

Hope this helps.

Cheers!
Title: Re: Order of play in french
Post by: Meepledrone on August 30, 2019, 08:19:16 AM
Hi yezhenhan and corinthiens13,

Hi Meepledrone and corinthiens13,

I learn a lot from both of you.
+1 merit for you.

Thank you! I appreciated it a lot.

Hi Meepledrone and corinthiens13,

I learn a lot from both of you.
+1 merit for you.

Hi,

I learned a lot from Meepledrone too ;)

Thank you for this and your awesome work with the Order of Play in French!

We are all learning a lot from these discussions, and that's the point, right?

Cheers!
Title: Re: Order of play in french
Post by: corinthiens13 on August 30, 2019, 01:08:33 PM
Bear also in mind that Fruit actions take place during the 2. Placing a Meeple phase while the placement of a meeple on the castle happens during the 3. Scoring phase. Thus the "timing" is not right even if you build the castle on the same tile as the meeple. In any case you would perform the Fruit action after placing the tile but before you place the castle and the meeple on it.

Agreed !

The rules do not define adjacency in these terms but the CAR does (check CAR v7.4, page 282):

...

I agree with you that the reasonable way to score a ringmaster on a castle is to take into account any meeple placed in the castle fief. My only consideration here is that this being a special case worth mentioning, neither the Expansion 8 rules nor the Expansion 10 rules dedicate a single sentence to this relevant case. If so, I suspect that HiG is not considering this interaction.

I see this case in a similar way to the placement of a meeple on an unoccupied castle via a magic portal. It could be a reasonable extension of the rules (you may use the magic portal to claim an unoccupied uncompleted feature on a tile placed on this turn or any previous one - unless the feature is completed by the placement of the magic portal tile) but no rule or official clarification allows players to place a meeple on an unoccupied castle through a magic portal. So this possibility is ruled out.

Thus, unless HiG clarifies the interaction, my interpretation is that ringmasters placed in castles do not get ringmaster points as a trade off for becoming a castle lord, although I see more than reasonable the adaptation of the scoring from 9-tile area to the 6-tile fief.

I have searched the rules, CarcC and CarcF for a confirmation or denial of the ringmaster scoring with the ringmaster placed in a castle to no avail. If anyone can shed some light on this case. I would appreciate it.

I didn't see the CAR definition of "adjacent", but I think CAR exploits this issue (does a castle have adjacent tiles) in the most logical way, as the official rules doesn't clarify that (I also couldn't find anything in the official rules.

In my French rules, I'll keep this rules, at least until we have any official clarification:
This explains why a circus triggers a castle's scoring, and this also imply a ringmaster on a castle can get his bonus when scoring the castle. Plus, considering this rule already clarifies future questions with other expansion as this gives a base rule.


All in all:
* Red scores X points (core feature score + road bonus from Leipzig)
* Blue scores X points the same points as Red for the road. Blue itself is not present on the road so no bonus points from Leipzig are possible.

------

My recommendation is to keep castle scoring as simple as possible:
1. Tally the points for the feature triggering the castle scoring.
    - If several features and/or meeples are involved, pick the highest score for the feature/meeple combination.
2. Score the points for all the players with majority on the feature picked
    - Any bonuses preceding the feature scoring should be performed first (watchtowers, Gingerbread Man,...) - These points do not affect castles
    - Any bonuses after the feature scoring should be performed last (ringmaster scoring,...) - These points do not affect castles
3. Score the points foe the castle(s) involved.
    - Any bonuses affecting castle lords will be taken into consideration (Fairy)
4. Proceed with the scoring of any other feature involved.

This clarifies things a bit. So as we consider the castle meeple is not present on the scored structure (reason why he doesn't get wainwright points for his own meeple in that quarter), then the castle meeple also can't get coiners points for his own meeple on that quarter, as the castle meeple is not present on the city. Only Leipzig bonus for monasteries can be applied to the castle lord for his own meeple on the bookbinders quarter.

Correct ?

But one thing remains unclear with this order of castle's scoring: Why can't a mayor on a castle take points from roads, monasteries, city without pennants, if he's simply scoring as much points as the player having the most points on the structure, and he's also not considered as present on the structure itself ?

Cheers !
Title: Re: Order of play in french
Post by: Meepledrone on August 31, 2019, 05:08:35 AM
Hi corinthiens13!

Bear also in mind that Fruit actions take place during the 2. Placing a Meeple phase while the placement of a meeple on the castle happens during the 3. Scoring phase. Thus the "timing" is not right even if you build the castle on the same tile as the meeple. In any case you would perform the Fruit action after placing the tile but before you place the castle and the meeple on it.

Agreed !


 :(y)

The rules do not define adjacency in these terms but the CAR does (check CAR v7.4, page 282):

...

I agree with you that the reasonable way to score a ringmaster on a castle is to take into account any meeple placed in the castle fief. My only consideration here is that this being a special case worth mentioning, neither the Expansion 8 rules nor the Expansion 10 rules dedicate a single sentence to this relevant case. If so, I suspect that HiG is not considering this interaction.

I see this case in a similar way to the placement of a meeple on an unoccupied castle via a magic portal. It could be a reasonable extension of the rules (you may use the magic portal to claim an unoccupied uncompleted feature on a tile placed on this turn or any previous one - unless the feature is completed by the placement of the magic portal tile) but no rule or official clarification allows players to place a meeple on an unoccupied castle through a magic portal. So this possibility is ruled out.

Thus, unless HiG clarifies the interaction, my interpretation is that ringmasters placed in castles do not get ringmaster points as a trade off for becoming a castle lord, although I see more than reasonable the adaptation of the scoring from 9-tile area to the 6-tile fief.

I have searched the rules, CarcC and CarcF for a confirmation or denial of the ringmaster scoring with the ringmaster placed in a castle to no avail. If anyone can shed some light on this case. I would appreciate it.

I didn't see the CAR definition of "adjacent", but I think CAR exploits this issue (does a castle have adjacent tiles) in the most logical way, as the official rules doesn't clarify that (I also couldn't find anything in the official rules.

In my French rules, I'll keep this rules, at least until we have any official clarification:
  • A meeple on a castle isn't on a tile, so any actions affecting a specific tile doesn't affect the castle (and so it's not possible to place a meeple on a castle using magic portals or fliers too)
  • The 6 tiles around the castle are considered adjacent to the castle
This explains why a circus triggers a castle's scoring, and this also imply a ringmaster on a castle can get his bonus when scoring the castle. Plus, considering this rule already clarifies future questions with other expansion as this gives a base rule.

The circus is an exceptional case: it triggers castle scoring but it is not a feature a player may claim and complete. The scoring trigger is the placement of another circus tile not the completion of any feature by the players.

On the other hand, acrobat pyramids, a figure-based feature requiring a greater effort from players to achieve its completion, is ignored by castles. They are treated in a similar way to watchtowers and ringmasters bonuses, in this case.

All in all:
* Red scores X points (core feature score + road bonus from Leipzig)
* Blue scores X points the same points as Red for the road. Blue itself is not present on the road so no bonus points from Leipzig are possible.

------

My recommendation is to keep castle scoring as simple as possible:
1. Tally the points for the feature triggering the castle scoring.
    - If several features and/or meeples are involved, pick the highest score for the feature/meeple combination.
2. Score the points for all the players with majority on the feature picked
    - Any bonuses preceding the feature scoring should be performed first (watchtowers, Gingerbread Man,...) - These points do not affect castles
    - Any bonuses after the feature scoring should be performed last (ringmaster scoring,...) - These points do not affect castles
3. Score the points foe the castle(s) involved.
    - Any bonuses affecting castle lords will be taken into consideration (Fairy)
4. Proceed with the scoring of any other feature involved.

This clarifies things a bit. So as we consider the castle meeple is not present on the scored structure (reason why he doesn't get wainwright points for his own meeple in that quarter), then the castle meeple also can't get coiners points for his own meeple on that quarter, as the castle meeple is not present on the city. Only Leipzig bonus for monasteries can be applied to the castle lord for his own meeple on the bookbinders quarter.

Correct ?

Correct. Leipzig bonuses require the presence of player's meeples on the feature (and even the majority in some cases) except for monasteries.

But one thing remains unclear with this order of castle's scoring: Why can't a mayor on a castle take points from roads, monasteries, city without pennants, if he's simply scoring as much points as the player having the most points on the structure, and he's also not considered as present on the structure itself ?

Cheers !

As per the rules, there is a decoupling between the points tallied by a feature and the points scored by a player through its meeples. Mayors can only score points if placed on a feature with pennants even if the feature tallies points.

Check the following double example (double quiz  ;) ) below. The only difference is the yellow tunnel token on A1. Several questions pop up in my mind:
* What do you think it is happening here? What happens with the castle fiefs and the roads with tunnels? Which ones share the same scoring and why?
* There are plenty of mayors and some meeples: how many points does each completed feature tally and how many points do the meeples associated to them score: city, roads, castles,...? Who gets the points from each feature?

Hope you like this exercise.  ;D

Cheers!


EDIT: Example updated
Title: Re: Order of play in french
Post by: Meepledrone on August 31, 2019, 07:42:50 AM
Hi again,

Check the following additional double example (quadruple quiz now ;) ) below. The only difference is the yellow tunnel token on A1. Several questions pop up in my mind:
* What do you think it is happening here? What happens with the castle fiefs and the roads with tunnels? Which ones share the same scoring and why?
* There are plenty of mayors and some meeples: how many points does each completed feature tally and how many points do the meeples associated to them score: city, roads, castles,...? Who gets the points from each feature?

Hope you like this additional exercise.  ;D

Cheers!
Title: Re: Order of play in french
Post by: Meepledrone on August 31, 2019, 01:10:46 PM
NOTE: There is a mistake in the illustrations and I have to change the road with the yellow tunnel so it can be completed at the same as city in examples 4B and 4D. I'm currently travelling. I'll update the illustrations as soon as I arrive home tonight. Sorry for the inconvenience.

EDIT: Previous two posts were updated as required.
Title: Re: Order of play in french
Post by: corinthiens13 on August 31, 2019, 01:27:31 PM
Hi,

I don't have time to answer all those quizz now, but here's what I'm not sure for example 4C, if one of the red tunnel tokens was missing and so the city is the only completed feature:
- Blue mayor gets 0 points as he doesn't own the structure (or do he still get 3 mage points?)
- Yellow mayor gets 0 points
- Red ringmaster gets core city points (6 for the city, 3 for the mage, 1 for the little building on a city tile)

Correct ?
Title: Re: Order of play in french
Post by: Meepledrone on August 31, 2019, 03:18:18 PM
Hi corinthiens13,

Hi,

I don't have time to answer all those quizz now, but here's what I'm not sure for example 4C, if one of the red tunnel tokens was missing and so the city is the only completed feature:
- Blue mayor gets 0 points as he doesn't own the structure (or do he still get 3 mage points?)
- Yellow mayor gets 0 points
- Red ringmaster gets core city points (6 for the city, 3 for the mage, 1 for the little building on a city tile)

Correct ?

- The city tallies 6 points (core city scoring) + 3 points for the Mage + 1 point for the Little Building = 10 points.
- The blue mayor in this city of 10 points will score 0 points as the city has no pennants.
- This city would trigger the scoring of the castle with the ringmaster, so the castle will be eligible to score 10 points if the meeple in it can score them. The ringmaster can score those 10 points for sure.
- The city would also trigger the scoring of the castle with the yellow mayor, so the castle will be eligible to score 10 points but the yellow mayor won't be able to score any points as the castle has no pennants. So the yellow ringmaster would score 0 points.

Assuming that one red tunnel token in missing in Example 4C, no road will be completed and no additional castle scoring will happen. So this scenario would end right there.

So, as you've seen above, if you think in two steps: (i) points tally and (ii) points scoring, everything looks simpler. A completed feature "always" tally points. The issue is who can score them. This approach will help you solve scenarios likes the ones presented above with mayors and castles that can make things look more complicated than they really are.

The examples above show some cases with overlapping and non-overapping fiefs with some completed roads shared to help us explore different scenarios. I don't want to spoil the fun for you.

Hope these hints help you enjoy the beauty of the whole scoring process in these scenarios.  ;)

Cheers!
Title: Re: Order of play in french
Post by: yezhenhan on August 31, 2019, 07:53:58 PM
Hi Meepledrone

Both You and corinthiens13 get the same answer,so it is not a good example.
My suggestion is make a new example with fairy,leipzig,darm church. Maybe you will find your approach is complex.

My opinion is close to corinthiens13.
The castle score is as if you are the owner of the city.Don’t consider any score from the follower in this city(including fairy,leipzig,darm church).Only if you have follower in leipzig,you can get the bonus.
Title: Re: Order of play in french
Post by: Meepledrone on September 01, 2019, 12:28:22 AM
Hi Meepledrone

Both You and corinthiens13 get the same answer,so it is not a good example.
My suggestion is make a new example with fairy,leipzig,darm church. Maybe you will find your approach is complex.

My opinion is close to corinthiens13.
The castle score is as if you are the owner of the city.Don’t consider any score from the follower in this city(including fairy,leipzig,darm church).Only if you have follower in leipzig,you can get the bonus.

Hi yezhenhan,

The example corinthiens13 and I were commenting in our previous posts was a simplification of Example 4C with only one feature (the city) so the result didn't leave too much room to speculation.

The four examples above play with various subtleties worth exploring. Besides getting the right result, the intention is to understand what the mental process is in order to get to the result when there are several features (a city and up to two roads, in this case) and several castles involved.

A very interesting case is the city with the mayor scoring 0 points but a nearby castle scores the full points (the one commented above), where you can see how the feature points are decoupled from the points meeples can score for a player.

This is why I was asking about the relationship of the castles and their fiefs, the points tally for each feature, and about what meeple gets the ints points from. IMHO the result is not so interesting as the mental process in this case.

Castles score full points calculated (tallied) for a feature completed in their fief (except when the castle lord is a mayor.) Another matter explored above is how castle "chain reaction" works and how you can compute the highest score in tricky cases if you want to make the most of it as a castle owner.

Hope this clarifies the intention of the examples above.

Cheers!
Title: Re: Order of play in french
Post by: corinthiens13 on September 05, 2019, 01:27:43 PM
Hi,

I had my Mega Carcassonne game with every major, mini and promo expansions this weekend and I didn't get any new questions (we just didn't play the pest to save some time, and still we couldn't finish every tiles after 8 hours). I guess we already solved a lot of situations with our discussions here.

For the castles, in my french rules (that have been updated to ver 3.9.2), I decided to keep the
 - Points as if the Lord owned the feature (ignoring other meeple's bonuses)
 - + Points linked to the Lord himself considering the 6 adjacent tiles (Leipzig, fairy and circus master)
As I still think this way is easier to understand and the official rules doesn't contradicts this.

But meepledrone, I agree your way of scoring castles do also fits the official rules  ;)

Cheers !
Title: Re: Order of play in french
Post by: Meepledrone on September 05, 2019, 02:29:47 PM
Hi,

I had my Mega Carcassonne game with every major, mini and promo expansions this weekend and I didn't get any new questions (we just didn't play the pest to save some time, and still we couldn't finish every tiles after 8 hours). I guess we already solved a lot of situations with our discussions here.

Hi corinthiens13,

I was looking forward to hearing from you about this epic game.

Do you have some pictures you could share and wirite a short report on the game? That would be awesome.

For the castles, in my french rules (that have been updated to ver 3.9.2), I decided to keep the
 - Points as if the Lord owned the feature (ignoring other meeple's bonuses)
 - + Points linked to the Lord himself considering the 6 adjacent tiles (Leipzig, fairy and circus master)
As I still think this way is easier to understand and the official rules doesn't contradicts this.

This can be valid an approach for castles scoring. In the end you should end up with the same result.

What Markets of Leipzig bonuses are you considering for the castle lord?

But meepledrone, I agree your way of scoring castles do also fits the official rules  ;)

Cheers !

It is based on the steps by the Order of Play. Is several fiefs overlap and several features are involved it would be the way to decide which feature scores the most points to honor the castle lord(s).

Did you have time to a look to the examples 4A-4D?

Cheers!
Title: Re: Order of play in french
Post by: corinthiens13 on November 25, 2019, 01:40:10 AM
Hi everyone,

The French order of play has been updated to ver 4.0, tollkeepers expansion rules have been added.

Have a nice day !
Title: Re: Order of play in french
Post by: corinthiens13 on November 28, 2019, 02:03:27 PM
Hi again,

It's now been updated to ver 4.1, tollkeepers scoring has been corrected, and the Spiel 2019 tile has been added to the expansion list. Thanks Meepledrone for your close look at this document.

Cheers !
Title: Re: Order of play in french
Post by: Meepledrone on December 01, 2019, 09:34:47 AM
Hi corinthiens!

Always a pleasure.  ;D

See you around!
Title: Re: Order of play in french
Post by: corinthiens13 on April 16, 2020, 05:58:45 AM
Hi everyone,

File has been updated to ver 4.6:
 - Various corrections after whole document review
 - Changed some titles to make it easier to navigate through the document
 - Redesigned front page

http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?action=downloads;sa=view;down=346 (http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?action=downloads;sa=view;down=346)

Greetings,
Title: Re: Order of play in french
Post by: Meepledrone on April 16, 2020, 06:15:06 AM
Great job!

+1 merit from me  ;D
Title: Re: Order of play in french
Post by: corinthiens13 on May 02, 2020, 11:28:14 PM
Hi everyone,

File has been updated to ver 4.7, corrected rules and added clarifications about bridges, bonuses (note on page 4), messages and challenges, thanks to Meepledrone's help.

Cheers,
Title: Re: Order of play in french
Post by: corinthiens13 on May 08, 2020, 05:35:38 AM
Hi everyone,

File has been updated to version 5.0, added land surveyors, corrected a lot of wording and translation mistakes to match the CII French rules (thanks to Black Bear), rearranged some sections... The document is now 28 pages.

Greetings
Title: Re: Order of play in french
Post by: Meepledrone on May 08, 2020, 08:55:41 AM
It seems the child is growing fast  ;)

Well done!  :(y) :(y) :(y)
Title: Re: Order of play in french
Post by: corinthiens13 on May 18, 2020, 12:59:27 AM
Hi everyone,

File has been updated to version 5.1, after some corrections following the new Scoring During Turn Sequence page on WICA.

Greetings,
Title: Re: Order of play in french
Post by: corinthiens13 on July 21, 2020, 01:54:09 AM
Hi everyone,

File has been updated to ver. 5.2:
 - Added The city gates
 - Added The fortune teller
 - Corrections and clarifications after the last WICA update

Cheers
Title: Re: Order of play in french
Post by: Meepledrone on July 21, 2020, 10:51:44 AM
Hi corinthiens13!

One small detail about Halflings:
* When playing with 12 Halflings you deal 2 tiles per player (as per the C1 rules). 
* When playing with 24 Halflings you deal 3 tiles per player (as per the C2 rules). In the first games you may omit the 4 tiles with symbols from other expansions (Exp. 9 and Crop circles).

Cheers!
Title: Re: Order of play in french
Post by: corinthiens13 on July 22, 2020, 12:39:14 PM
Hi corinthiens13!

One small detail about Halflings:
* When playing with 12 Halflings you deal 2 tiles per player (as per the C1 rules). 
* When playing with 24 Halflings you deal 3 tiles per player (as per the C2 rules). In the first games you may omit the 4 tiles with symbols from other expansions (Exp. 9 and Crop circles).

Cheers!

Hi,

Thanks, detail added on file version 5.2.1.

Cheers,
Title: Re: Order of play in french
Post by: corinthiens13 on August 12, 2020, 02:04:05 AM
Hi everyone,

File has been updated to version 5.2.2.

I added some clarifications and rewording, also corrected the interaction between castles and gold ingots.

Cheers
Title: Re: Order of play in french
Post by: Gagoune on September 16, 2020, 10:04:30 AM
Hello,
Nice work ! I'm french and I like what you did.
I just think there might be too many informations on the same page. So, if you're ok with it, I would like to get the "word" file if possible ?
Maybe I can help for that hard work you make !
Regards,
Gagoune

---

Salut,
Super travail ! Je suis français et j'ai apprécié ce que vous avez fait.
Je pense seulement qu'il se peut qu'il y ait trop d'informations sur une seule page. Aussi, si vous vous en êtes d'accord, pourriez-vous m'envoyer le fichier "word" ?
Peut-être pourrais-je aider dans ce formidable travail que vous avez réalisé.
Bien à vous,
Gagoune
Title: Re: Order of play in french
Post by: corinthiens13 on September 16, 2020, 12:50:29 PM
Hello,
Nice work ! I'm french and I like what you did.
I just think there might be too many informations on the same page. So, if you're ok with it, I would like to get the "word" file if possible ?
Maybe I can help for that hard work you make !
Regards,
Gagoune

---

Salut,
Super travail ! Je suis français et j'ai apprécié ce que vous avez fait.
Je pense seulement qu'il se peut qu'il y ait trop d'informations sur une seule page. Aussi, si vous vous en êtes d'accord, pourriez-vous m'envoyer le fichier "word" ?
Peut-être pourrais-je aider dans ce formidable travail que vous avez réalisé.
Bien à vous,
Gagoune

Hi,

You can download it here :
https://1drv.ms/f/s!Akzl4Zu9812UgYlkfHycRdGxQi3IPA

Feel free to make any suggestions. The difficulty about the amount of information on a page is that I want it to address a maximum of possible interactions between expansions, and to not exceed 28 pages (to keep it easily printable as a booklet and usable while playing).

Regards,
Title: Re: Order of play in french
Post by: Bumsakalaka on September 16, 2020, 01:48:19 PM
Hah, let's image to add some of fan expansions to rules ;-)
Title: Re: Order of play in french
Post by: corinthiens13 on September 16, 2020, 10:05:00 PM
Hah, let's image to add some of fan expansions to rules ;-)

Ooh nooo   :o

That'd be an endless and limitless and oversiszed work  >:D
Title: Re: Order of play in french
Post by: corinthiens13 on September 21, 2020, 06:04:50 AM
Hi everyone,

File has been updated to version 5.3:
 - Various corrections since the last WICA's updates (http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=4115.msg70329#msg70329 (http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=4115.msg70329#msg70329))
 - Corrected some typos
 - Improved Cathars tile image (scanned one of my own tiles, as I couldn't find a good quality image on the internet)

Regards
Title: Re: Order of play in french
Post by: Meepledrone on September 21, 2020, 06:58:15 AM
Hi Corinthiens13,

I don't know if you saw the reply to your comment about The Catapult:

Basically, I was telling you this:

The original wording was misleading for both the Knock-out and the Seduction tokens.... "Within" is referring to "on all the tiles" related to these features or special areas. So I updated the wording and added more details to the clarifications about both tokens (Footnotes #4, #6, #7 and #8). Clarification #7 is a new one associated to a possible mistranslation by RGG, since the rules for the Seduction token were contradicting the original HiG rules and footnote #8, based on an old FAQ available on HIG's site until 08/2017.

Thanks for the heads-up.

Cheers!
Title: Re: Order of play in french
Post by: corinthiens13 on September 22, 2020, 02:54:31 AM
Hi Corinthiens13,

I don't know if you saw the reply to your comment about The Catapult:

Basically, I was telling you this:

The original wording was misleading for both the Knock-out and the Seduction tokens.... "Within" is referring to "on all the tiles" related to these features or special areas. So I updated the wording and added more details to the clarifications about both tokens (Footnotes #4, #6, #7 and #8). Clarification #7 is a new one associated to a possible mistranslation by RGG, since the rules for the Seduction token were contradicting the original HiG rules and footnote #8, based on an old FAQ available on HIG's site until 08/2017.

Thanks for the heads-up.

Cheers!

Hi,

Thanks for the explanation and corrections, the wording and clarifications are perfect now ;)

Cheers