Carcassonne Central

Carc Central Community => Official Rules => Topic started by: totor66 on October 27, 2016, 02:52:00 AM

Title: CAR for Carcassonne v2
Post by: totor66 on October 27, 2016, 02:52:00 AM
Just thinking about it now, I realised a complete version of CAR will be possible for Carcassone V1, and a version for Carcassonne V2 can be done. Sounds exciting, no more updates :p

But maybe that would be too much work :(
Title: Re: CAR for Carcassonne v2
Post by: whaleyland on October 27, 2016, 04:55:53 AM
You may be giving obervet ideas...like that he can retire! I feel like there will always be minor rules disagreements to resolve, but overall, restarting the CAR with Carc2.0 may not be an entirely bad idea. Granted, I still like to think of Carc2.0 as the Spring Edition, as opposed to the old art which is the Summer Edition. Maybe somebody would like to make a Autumn Edition, with nice Fall colours bespeckling everything.
Title: Re: CAR for Carcassonne v2
Post by: DaFees on October 28, 2016, 09:28:30 PM
While the idea of retiring the current CAR and making a CAR for Carcassonne 2.0 is nice in theory, I don't ever see it happening. Yes new expansions are now only being made in the new artwork (See the Temples in Japan and The Watchtowers as proof) but I've read (but not yet seen, links or pics would be nice) of fans adapting these new artwork expansions to the old artwork style. This allows fans of the old artwork style to enjoy the new expansions. As long as this is a thing then so be it the job of the CAR to cover the rules of these new expansions and how they interact with others.
Title: Re: CAR for Carcassonne v2
Post by: SRBO on October 29, 2016, 12:58:27 AM
I think a Carcassonne wiki would still be the best idea, the car should be finished for the old version. But we always need to wait for 1 person..
Title: Re: CAR for Carcassonne v2
Post by: aenima on October 29, 2016, 01:38:57 AM
remember that carc 1 and carc 2 are compatible each other, so, for me, there must always be a single document with all the interactions.
Title: Re: CAR for Carcassonne v2
Post by: MrNumbers on October 29, 2016, 02:38:58 AM
remember that carc 1 and carc 2 are compatible each other, so, for me, there must always be a single document with all the interactions.
My thoughts exactly! I will play new expansions with Carc v1 anyway, so for me it would be better to have all rules in one document.
Title: Re: CAR for Carcassonne v2
Post by: kettlefish on October 30, 2016, 12:42:28 AM
To create a CAR - needs also to own all the editions I + II base games, big expansions, mini expansions....

I am not sure if each fan of the CC I edition (graphics by Doris Matthäus) likes to collect all the other pieces of the CC II edition (graphics by Anne Pätzke).

The text syle in the rules for the CC II edition is different to the CC I edition. Also even in the base game CC II are the rules different. There are less main information than in the CC I edition.
There are many questions never asked for the CC II edition.

CC II edition: A list for the tiles is missing at HiG. Even the rules for the expansions for the CC II edition are not at the HiG homepage.

Does anyone of you asked obervet if he likes to collect all pieces of the CC II edition?
Does anyone of you know how much work it will be to create a CAR for CC II edition or a CAR which included CC I + CC II editions?
Title: Re: CAR for Carcassonne v2
Post by: aenima on October 30, 2016, 01:38:12 AM
The text syle in the rules for the CC II edition is different to the CC I edition. Also even in the base game CC II are the rules different. There are less main information than in the CC I edition.
There are many questions never asked for the CC II edition.
CC II edition: A list for the tiles is missing at HiG. Even the rules for the expansions for the CC II edition are not at the HiG homepage.

I don't see the point... it's the same game withe the gardens. for me it's not necessary rebuild a new CAR with all new image and the exact text of car 2... for the reprinting things just to put in the old one CAR little new informations about the gardens and the list of the new tiles (that you can find in carcassonne forum). I'll do in this way for the italian version RCA.

Does anyone of you asked obervet if he likes to collect all pieces of the CC II edition?

this is the real problem!  :)
for me and the italian version there is not... I like carcassonne 2 and I'll collect all new expansion
Title: Re: CAR for Carcassonne v2
Post by: CarcinFool on October 30, 2016, 03:15:53 AM
I agree with SRBO -- a CAR wiki would be fantastic!


The CAR is an a amazing piece of work and am so grateful for its existence and all the work that has been put into it, but making it a community project would make the resource so much more timely, dynamic, and useful.
Title: Re: CAR for Carcassonne v2
Post by: Elfew on October 30, 2016, 11:27:32 AM
In our Czech board we have a wiki page under construction. Will be available really soon
Title: Re: CAR for Carcassonne v2
Post by: asparagus on October 30, 2016, 12:43:11 PM
In our Czech board we have a wiki page under construction. Will be available really soon

Could it be maintained as a multi-language wiki?
Title: Re: CAR for Carcassonne v2
Post by: SRBO on October 30, 2016, 01:31:19 PM
Wasnt there a topic already for a Carcassonne wiki?
Title: Re: CAR for Carcassonne v2
Post by: whaleyland on October 30, 2016, 04:00:27 PM
Quote from: asparagus link=topic=2943.msg44018#msg44018
Could it be maintained as a multi-language wiki?
Yes, it could, although that would require multiple interlinked Wikis.

Wasnt there a topic already for a Carcassonne wiki?
Yes, there is at least one thread. In fact, I believe there is already server space reserved for a Wiki and possibly even a version of MediaWiki set up. It just does not have any content yet. I was planning to work on it last year, but I have now run out of time. I haven't even updated my Dominion CAR yet, which is bugging me and the users. But money and work come first, unfortunately.

I made my own Wiki a number of months ago: www.MedievalTexts.com. From that, I have learned a lot, but the main thing I have learned is that whoever is in charge of the Wiki needs to have top level server access, and that could be a problem for this website at least. I've had to contact my hosting service multiple times to get issues cleared, and the Wiki code has to be altered a lot early on to get it to properly replicate Wikipedia features.

Another option is to hijack this wiki: http://carcassonne.wikia.com/wiki/Carcassonne_Wiki. It hasn't been updated since July 2014 and could definitely work. We would have less control, though. Self hosting is the only way to have a Wiki whose editors can be restricted to only a specific few people (probably 1-2 content editors and 2-3 layout/format/copy editors).
Title: Re: CAR for Carcassonne v2
Post by: cidervampire on October 30, 2016, 04:40:26 PM
i guess it would be nice to have a final CAR for 1st edition.  I do think however that 1st and 2nd edition are the same game and I mix and match tiles from both editions and there are certain to be new expansions which raise questions about their interactions with v1 expansions.
I personally would much rather have a PDF CAR than a wiki.
It's nice to have a single document that I can take with me on holiday and not have to worry about needing an Internet connection to check the rules
Title: Re: CAR for Carcassonne v2
Post by: pietist on November 18, 2016, 02:56:53 AM
i guess it would be nice to have a final CAR for 1st edition.  I do think however that 1st and 2nd edition are the same game and I mix and match tiles from both editions and there are certain to be new expansions which raise questions about their interactions with v1 expansions.
I personally would much rather have a PDF CAR than a wiki.
It's nice to have a single document that I can take with me on holiday and not have to worry about needing an Internet connection to check the rules


I agree on this!
- A final version for 1st edition.
- A mixed version, which treat the v2 exansions too
- A PDF-CAR, which i possible to print and read as a book.

A question from an outsider: when, by the way, will a new version of CAR (v7.5) be published?

Title: Re: CAR for Carcassonne v2
Post by: SRBO on November 18, 2016, 05:47:02 AM
I think we can all agree that with one collection a complete car is needed.
Carcassonne 1 and 2 are different collections. I hope we can agree to that. I also think its for the best to have a new author for a CAR for version 2 considering obervet hasnt been here for a long time.
Title: Re: CAR for Carcassonne v2
Post by: Paul on November 18, 2016, 06:08:39 AM
A new document for v2 is definately needed. Within this document it can have everything relating to playing with v1 of Carcassonne, so those that only have v1 don't have to bother with v2 rulings.
Title: Re: CAR for Carcassonne v2
Post by: totor66 on January 17, 2017, 01:32:42 AM
I allow myself to answer back on this, I have very limited skills to offer but if somebody needs proofing or some ungrateful tasks to update the CAR, I will gladly help

It seems to me a long time there isn't any change, and I think it just misses a bit for it to be complete :)
Title: Re: CAR for Carcassonne v2
Post by: reddalek on January 17, 2017, 07:10:16 AM
I would also be happy to volunteer my time to fork the CAR for Carcassonne 2.0. I have most (not quite all) of the 2.0 tiles.
Title: Re: CAR for Carcassonne v2
Post by: ooh_jim on February 03, 2017, 07:24:14 AM
The wiki is a great idea. As for the CAR, which rules are still to be included? The Labyrinth, The four Russian Promos, and The German Cathedrals; anything else?
Title: Re: CAR for Carcassonne v2
Post by: Thrawn on February 04, 2017, 01:42:13 AM
Hi!

For the new version of the CAR (if will be) all the clarifications since the last edition should be listed. Maybe it was already done by Obervet but that version was not released. After the Essen fair in 2015 there was a lot of clarifications about German Castles and Halflings to which Obervet replied that he added to the CAR. (I guess to a work in progess version)

So for the new CAR the following expansions should be mentioned:

- The labyrinth
- the 2 new russian promos
- 2015 and 2016 Essen tiles
- maybe mention The Festival 2015 edition. With numbers 15 and new art style but same tiles as the 10year Festival tiles
- German Cathedrals
- Temples in Japan (rules are same as for the German and Dutch cloisters)
- Watchtowers
- the soon to be released Major expansion Nr 10.

My opinion: 1 CAR is enough as it has been up to now. The expansions are fully compatible with each other no matter if it is old or new style and the CAR is abour RULES which are identical. It was an amazing work up to now and will it be continued or not I just want to say: Thank you Obervet and all the others who participated in the creation of this CAR.

Regards,
Thrawn
Title: Re: CAR for Carcassonne v2
Post by: ooh_jim on February 04, 2017, 04:13:24 AM
Hi!

For the new version of the CAR (if will be) all the clarifications since the last edition should be listed. Maybe it was already done by Obervet but that version was not released. After the Essen fair in 2015 there was a lot of clarifications about German Castles and Halflings to which Obervet replied that he added to the CAR. (I guess to a work in progess version)

So for the new CAR the following expansions should be mentioned:

- The labyrinth
- the 2 new russian promos
- 2015 and 2016 Essen tiles
- maybe mention The Festival 2015 edition. With numbers 15 and new art style but same tiles as the 10year Festival tiles
- German Cathedrals
- Temples in Japan (rules are same as for the German and Dutch cloisters)
- Watchtowers
- the soon to be released Major expansion Nr 10.

My opinion: 1 CAR is enough as it has been up to now. The expansions are fully compatible with each other no matter if it is old or new style and the CAR is abour RULES which are identical. It was an amazing work up to now and will it be continued or not I just want to say: Thank you Obervet and all the others who participated in the creation of this CAR.

Regards,
Thrawn

Ah, I didn't see that the first two Russian tiles were included in the last release.

It is also worth mentioning that the City of Carcassonne tiles from The Count are available in two new formats, if only under the expansion's tile distribution and the 'Other Special Starting Tiles' area of the consolidated tile reference. The Russian release of the expansion has all 12 tiles merged into one, with a greyscale copy of the image on the back. The latest version also has all of the tiles merged, but introduces an extra city on it's northern boarder (on the area that used to be tile #3); the back of this version follows the starting tile pattern.
Title: Re: CAR for Carcassonne v2
Post by: reddalek on February 04, 2017, 09:05:25 AM
Technically there are also some tile-based rule differences, e.g. the Inn in I&C which applies to one road in v1 but two roads in v2. And knowing the distribution of gardens in v2 tiles is helpful etc.
Title: Re: CAR for Carcassonne v2
Post by: kettlefish on February 04, 2017, 10:05:19 AM
Who likes to create a CAR for the Carcassonne II - New Edition?
Title: Re: CAR for Carcassonne v2
Post by: reddalek on February 04, 2017, 10:07:03 AM
I would be happy to if the original CAR owner agrees I can fork it! Don't want to steal their work...
Title: Re: CAR for Carcassonne v2
Post by: kettlefish on February 04, 2017, 10:26:18 AM
Obervet gave the work up for the CAR. Till now we don't have someone who finishes the CAR for the classic Carcassonne version and we don't have someone who write a new CAR for the New Edition.

The New Edition is in some points complete different to the Classic Edition - that mean we need a 2nd CAR for the New Edition. We will get a BigBox for the New Edition this year - that is the plan from HiG.
I still hope that there will be some more corrections for the New Edition - especially for the base game.

But there are some different landscape tiles, the 6th colour is different, the move of the wagon is different - that are only a few examples. Also the farmer rule is only a "expansion" and not in the base rule itself.

With the 3rd Expansion Princess & Dragon - HiG started with a list for game play with other expansions. These rules are now official for the New Edition, but for the Classic Edition that are only Clarification of Rules (included in the CAR) but mostly not in the official rules from HiG.

The base game of the new edition is different - there are no crossing - it has the villages to splitt roads.

One more problem is that so many expansions are not yet published in English.
In German we have the expansions 1-5 finished, the 10th almost, in the next weeks also the 6th and some time later the 8th expansion.
Title: Re: CAR for Carcassonne v2
Post by: SRBO on February 05, 2017, 12:15:42 AM
But we dont have access to the old files except for a pdf file right? I think its something huge in which we all need to work together. It will take months if someone will do it on its own..
Title: Re: CAR for Carcassonne v2
Post by: kettlefish on February 05, 2017, 02:58:47 AM
Obervet gave me the link to the files from his dropbox. But the CAR document in word has no hyperlinks. I don't know if that is only a problem about the download for me. Or if that document has really no hyperlinks.

In the hidden forum for admins and moderators we had some discussion about a wiki or other document to build a new CAR.
Title: Re: CAR for Carcassonne v2
Post by: SRBO on February 05, 2017, 04:07:19 AM
In the hidden forum for admins and moderators we had some discussion about a wiki or other document to build a new CAR.

Isn't that an interessting discussion for us all?
Title: Re: CAR for Carcassonne v2
Post by: ARabidMeerkat on February 05, 2017, 06:53:59 AM
Sign me up to help!
Title: Re: CAR for Carcassonne v2
Post by: Just a Bill on May 08, 2017, 08:37:47 PM
I would like to volunteer to help with the next CAR update. I have professional experience as a game designer, rules writer, rulings guru, proofreader, technical editor, and expert word processor on such games as Cosmic Encounter, Chrononauts, and most of Decipher's CCGs/TCGs (for example, I wrote the majority of the enormous Second Edition Rulebook and Glossary for the Star Wars CCG). And of course I love Carcassonne.  :green-meeple:

As my résumé, I offer the 115,000-word Cosmodex, an encyclopedia for Cosmic Encounter (https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/536444/cosmodex-20-encyclopedia-cosmic-encounter). I've built the Cosmodex almost entirely by myself, and am solely responsible for the research, writing, organization, page layout, and conversion of the illustrations. For almost seven years now I've kept it up to date for each new expansion set.
Title: Re: CAR for Carcassonne v2
Post by: aenima on May 09, 2017, 12:52:34 AM
yeeee this is a great news!!!
Title: Re: CAR for Carcassonne v2
Post by: danisthirty on May 09, 2017, 05:43:54 AM
yeeee this is a great news!!!

^ what he said!

I'm very happy for you to proceed with the new version "Just a Bill". Is there anything you need/ want from the community to help you on your way or do you have enough to get started with it already?

Obervet was the member here who was responsible for maintenance of the original/ old artwork CAR. His templates/ tools/ images etc are available if you think these would be useful? Or would prefer to make a fresh start?

Thanks in advance for your efforts. Can't wait to see the end result...
Title: Re: CAR for Carcassonne v2
Post by: Decar on May 09, 2017, 06:19:14 AM
Don't think many here have a resumé as good as that. And those that do: don't have the time.

Good luck with your endeavour!
Title: Re: CAR for Carcassonne v2
Post by: Just a Bill on May 09, 2017, 08:42:12 AM
Is there anything you need/ want from the community to help you on your way or do you have enough to get started with it already? ... Obervet was the member here who was responsible for maintenance of the original/ old artwork CAR. His templates/ tools/ images etc are available if you think these would be useful?

So here's what I'm thinking. Please tell me what does/doesn't make sense to you all; I'm the newcomer in the clubhouse and I want to be helpful without stepping on toes. I would wish/hope/expect that this would be a collaborative project, with the consensus of the key members of the community. I don't mind shouldering a lot of the grunt work, but when it comes to decisions about how something should be presented/interpreted/etc. then I expect those things to be collaborative. (Granted, there shouldn't be nearly as much of this for Carcassonne as there is for Cosmic Encounter, thank goodness.)

I am in awe of what Obervet (and those who helped him) have created. I started playing Carcassonne very shortly after it was published, but had not picked it up in several years until just recently. I had no idea how much I had missed, and the CAR has been a godsend for me in getting back up to speed. I really like the format, and the judicious use of footnoting was a stroke of genius for keeping the whole thing both readable and manageable. (Boy I wish I had footnoting capabilities for the Cosmodex.)

So I really have no desire to start from scratch. I don't see any "issues" with the CAR that I would recommend changing, other than the fact that it needs some updates for more recent expansions, and a few editorial nips and tucks here and there (which any document of this magnitude will always require). I very much would like to start with all the materials that are available, to minimize my workload (!) but more importantly to maximize continuity for all the users of the CAR. I think the best way to initially serve the community would be with a CAR 7.5 that "catches up" all the missing content that's relevant for Carcassonne v1.

And that brings us to the big caveat (and how I might be about to get myself fired). My thoughts have been focused mostly on the idea of "finishing" the v1 CAR, but I just noticed that the topic of this thread is actually a v2 CAR. I'm actually not a fan of v2 — not at all. The artwork change is something I view in a pretty negative light. I understand some of the reasons why it was done (better printing technology, freshen the brand, plan for the day when Doris is no longer available, etc.), but I still don't like how garish it looks, nor how the birth of v2 requires the death of v1. I don't think I can bring myself to mix the two styles, and I am for sure not going to shell out the pile of cash needed to re-buy everything. The one and only v2 tile I own is the Labyrinth, and that of course was not even intentional. ;)

So does this mean I'm unwilling to help with a v2 CAR? No, of course not. It's still Carcassonne, even if it's not the Carcassonne I want. (There's plenty of Cosmic Encounter material that I find low quality, but I do my duty and add it to the Cosmodex.) However, I'm not going to own the materials, and I won't have the same enthusiasm for v2 that I have for v1. So thinking back to when kettlefish mused whether anyone had asked Obervet if he wants to buy all the new stuff ... please understand that I do not want to buy all the new stuff. And more importantly, over time I expect that v2 will continue to experience rule changes; and that some of these rule changes may or may not be in the best interest of v1. (Obviously HiG has to do what's best for the product they are actually selling now.) So I want to be clear up front that if there continues to be a segment of the player community that wants to defend the best interests of v1, I will be sympathetic to that group. The more open-minded folks who embrace all the new stuff — the true, "Full Carcassonnians" — may find my dinosaur opinions irritating.

Personally, I think I'd prefer to see two distinct CARs, for a few reasons. First, there will be players who only own v1 and players who only own v2, and for all of those folks the "opposite" material would be additional bloat (in a document that is really already too big for most people to print, for v1 already and v2 later). Second, HiG is not going to keep making cross-version rulings, and so there will be a growing number of "holes" in the document where interactions between v1 and v2 content are undefined. This will lead to an increasing number of house rules and community-consensus rulings, which over time will erode the authenticity of the CAR (and could lead to fracturing of the player community as these rulings are argued upon). And third, as previously mentioned, there is the real possibility that new rule changes for v2 could come at the expense of v1. (Just look at the history of the HiG/RGG differences and the ensuing chaos.) So I would propose (as an idea for discussion) a CAR v1 and a CAR v2, along with a "compatibility guide" that offers recommendations for playing the two systems together. The compatibility guide could include the majority of the player-community consensus rulings.

I realize, however, that a lot of the serious, longtime players will find that unsatisfying. Those who are mixing the styles together perceive all of Carcassonne as one big game, and will probably want all their rules in one place. Thus a combined CAR may become inevitable. In that case, what I would propose would be that we first complete the v1 CAR and then "fork" off a combined v1+v2 CAR. Those players who have no intention of accumulating the new art can simply become hermits in v1 land and content themselves with their completed CAR 7.5 or 7.6 or whatever. (In fact, I would propose that the combined CAR begin its numbering at 8.0, to leave a few version numbers available for the last few minor updates to the "old" CAR before the community finally abandons it and gets fully assimilated by "Carcasstwwo.")
Title: Re: CAR for Carcassonne v2
Post by: reddalek on May 09, 2017, 08:54:13 AM
+1 vote for a separate CAR for Carcassonne 2 from me. As a relatively new player of the game who's collecting only Carcassonne 2 tiles, I would (selfishly) prefer to have a CAR with exclusive artwork and rules. I own all of the Carcassonne 2 materials so would be happy to contribute here where it's helpful.
Title: Re: CAR for Carcassonne v2
Post by: danisthirty on May 09, 2017, 09:50:33 AM
Is there anything you need/ want from the community to help you on your way or do you have enough to get started with it already? ... Obervet was the member here who was responsible for maintenance of the original/ old artwork CAR. His templates/ tools/ images etc are available if you think these would be useful?

{all loads of stuff}

I think I agree with pretty much everything you wrote. There are two distinct opportunities:

1) complete work on the v1 CAR up to the point that the old artwork finishes
2) start a new CAR for v2 and keep it up to date with new developments

I agree that the two artwork versions should have separate documents, and it makes sense in terms of readability too as a single CAR would not be coherent considering all the rules that already exist (and will come to exist) that vary between the two versions.

With regard to the decisions, I'm sure you will have the support and input of many members of CarcC in this project so feel free to ask for feedback/ guidance as necessary and I'm sure you'll get a good response.
Title: Re: CAR for Carcassonne v2
Post by: Just a Bill on May 09, 2017, 10:40:58 AM
I agree that the two artwork versions should have separate documents, and it makes sense in terms of readability too as a single CAR would not be coherent considering all the rules that already exist (and will come to exist) that vary between the two versions.

I realized just after posting that the terminology differences alone would be a nightmare. "For example, a thief/highwayman525 of another colour can score a road which goes through a finished tunnel." "The player receives 2 points for each pennant/coat of arms450." Over and over and over ... yikes. And just imagine the unreadable mess of having to qualify when meeple means follower vs. when it means figure, hundreds of times throughout the document so that players of both versions can interpret all the rules correctly. :P

Then there's the next divisive question: which style of tiles to use for all the examples? Both? (Heaven forbid.)

Pretty sure all that would significantly downgrade the beauty and usability of Obervet's work.

With regard to the decisions, I'm sure you will have the support and input of many members of CarcC in this project so feel free to ask for feedback/ guidance as necessary and I'm sure you'll get a good response.

Excellent. And everyone please don't be shy about telling me when I'm ruffling feathers in the clubhouse ... I don't know all the unwritten rules yet.
Title: Re: CAR for Carcassonne v2
Post by: ny1050220 on May 09, 2017, 12:51:13 PM
Then there's the next divisive question: which style of tiles to use for all the examples? Both? (Heaven forbid.)
If there are both version in one single file, we might consider alternating between the two when giving examples. Look at Canada!
Random example:
Title: Re: CAR for Carcassonne v2
Post by: chrismalenurse on May 09, 2017, 02:42:32 PM
Am I missing  something?  Don't the new rules supersede the old rules? Even if you play with the old tiles shouldn't the newest rules be the rules in effect?



Why would you need 2 CARs?
Title: Re: CAR for Carcassonne v2
Post by: whaleyland on May 09, 2017, 03:14:24 PM
Am I missing  something?  Don't the new rules supersede the old rules? Even if you play with the old tiles shouldn't the newest rules be the rules in effect?



Why would you need 2 CARs?
People will definitely disagree with you on that. The old rules had Farm rules as a core component while the new rules make Farms an optional component. That alone is a major shift.

While they are technically the same game and the version 2 rules are the official tournament rules, Hans im Glück has simplified everything somewhat and streamlined the rules. People who have been playing since the beginning may be put off by things like the Wagon (from Abbey & Mayor) suddenly operating differently. More rules changes may be coming in future expansions. We just don't know. And the rules regarding interactions between expansions have also changed, so there's that to consider as well.

Just A Bill, I also will support you in whatever way I can with your rules. I think 2 documents is the way to go. Excise from observet's version all the version 2 material and toss those into a new document. That way we can put an end, once and for all, to the old CAR rules and let it sit as a monument to our favourite past-time that it should be.
Title: Re: CAR for Carcassonne v2
Post by: DaFees on May 09, 2017, 06:03:34 PM
I agree with a lot of what has been said recently. I think two separate documents will please the most people. It may not be the perfect solution but then again a perfect solution may not be possible. Regardless of all the Carcassonne v2 stuff that is or will be available I am greatly interested in seeing a complete Carcassonne v1 document. I own the German Castles and Haflings expansions but I've been hesitant on playing with them too much primarily because rules for them don't exist in the CAR and that there is a lot of questions surrounding those two.

One thing though I think we should keep in mind, going forward, is what the devs behind the iOS carcassonne app do. It is a very well done board game adaption and regarded as one of the best board game apps on iOS if not mobile in general. The thing is everything they do apparently has HiG's blessing. This means the rules for how expansions interact with each other all had to be approved by HiG or so I assume. This hasn't lead to anything we didn't already know, yet but it might. The thing is some people might play this digital version more so than the physical version and so when they play the physical version may rely on what they learned/know from the digital version to guide their playing of the physical version. The only real interesting thing to happen so far was the adding of the Abbot expansion. Granted it is easier for the devs to adapt this expansion to the game than it is for us playing it physically but still.

I guess my point is this what happens in the future if the devs add the new 10th expansion to the game or what happens when they add the Abbey & Mayor expansion to the game? What wagon rules will the use? v1, v2 or will they give players a choice? Also what would happen if we as a community make a rules decision around an expansion and then they later put that expansion in the digital version but the rules the use differ from what we decided. Would we as a community accept or reject this? I mean I am sure the devs have / had a lot of the same questions we do and I'm sure they check these forums for input but if HiG gives them final approval then who knows.

Granted the devs haven't added new content to the game in a while but they are working on new content. Either way it is something to think about.
Title: Re: CAR for Carcassonne v2
Post by: danisthirty on May 10, 2017, 12:48:55 AM
While they are technically the same game and the version 2 rules are the official tournament rules...

I agree with the rest of your post whaleyland but am not 100% on this as I didn't see any Abbots at the world championships (not that I was taking part). We've never used them at the UK championships either, despite using the new artwork tiles.

@DaFees - rather than being aligned with the iOS app, we need to be aligned with HiG. If the iOS app is aligned with HiG then that is great, but if there is ever a difference we would probably seek "official" clarity from HiG. In the past, this has been achieved through one of our global moderators and key members of the forums here - kettlefish - who semi-works for HiG in that she is responsible for proof reading of rules for many of the new expansions that have been released. She meets annually with HiG (or at least she used to) to get a definitive answer to any rules questions that we can't resolve by ourselves. As long as this continues, I think the CAR v2 should follow their direct guidance...
Title: Re: CAR for Carcassonne v2
Post by: kettlefish on May 10, 2017, 02:16:09 AM
While they are technically the same game and the version 2 rules are the official tournament rules...
I agree with the rest of your post whaleyland but am not 100% on this as I didn't see any Abbots at the world championships (not that I was taking part). We've never used them at the UK championships either, despite using the new artwork tiles.
The Carcassonne World Championship uses the tiles from the New Edition, and they play with the farmer. But they don't use the Abbot and also not the River.
http://carcassonne-meisterschaft.de/en/tournament.htm (http://carcassonne-meisterschaft.de/en/tournament.htm)
In German we have the "Bauer" = farmer onto the "Wiese" = meadow - we never talk about a "Feld" = field.
Title: Re: CAR for Carcassonne v2
Post by: whaleyland on May 10, 2017, 02:17:38 AM
While they are technically the same game and the version 2 rules are the official tournament rules...

I agree with the rest of your post whaleyland but am not 100% on this as I didn't see any Abbots at the world championships (not that I was taking part). We've never used them at the UK championships either, despite using the new artwork tiles.
Well technically the Abbots are an "inspansion". What I mean to say is that if an official tournament were to use an expansion (which they usually do not), they would undoubtedly use the rules included in the new art. People around here are so ancient that they still play with the old Farm rules. Don't get me started!

Quote
@DaFees - rather than being aligned with the iOS app, we need to be aligned with HiG. If the iOS app is aligned with HiG then that is great, but if there is ever a difference we would probably seek "official" clarity from HiG. In the past, this has been achieved through one of our global moderators and key members of the forums here - kettlefish - who semi-works for HiG in that she is responsible for proof reading of rules for many of the new expansions that have been released. She meets annually with HiG (or at least she used to) to get a definitive answer to any rules questions that we can't resolve by ourselves. As long as this continues, I think the CAR v2 should follow their direct guidance...
Last I checked, Hans im Glück isn't making official rulings anymore except for those found in their rules booklets. That doesn't mean that problems present within a single rules booklet can't be asked, only that they will not answer questions relating to expansion cross-compatibility. At least that is what it sounds like from kettlefish.
Title: Re: CAR for Carcassonne v2
Post by: kettlefish on May 10, 2017, 02:29:22 AM
The CAR for the New Edition needs a different structure than the CAR for the classical edition. In many of the expansions we have the "clarification for the game play with other expansions" - that was in the classical edition not included. That means it was only the FAQ in the CAR - the footnotes. Now we have many of the footnotes of the CAR from the classical edition as official rules for the New Edition.

For the New Edition:
There are many of the footnotes from the CAR for the classical edition which aren`t needed for the CAR in the New Edition.
Examples:
the farmer rules
the builder and pig = they are not "followers"
and all the footnotes which are now a part of the official rules.

This year I have some more work to do for HiG - Correction reading for the New Edition: the 8th and 9th expansion and the BigBox - when that all is finished, then I will have more time for the help for the CAR.
Title: Re: CAR for Carcassonne v2
Post by: Jéré on May 10, 2017, 06:06:18 AM
Looks like we have found the perfect person to at least finish the CAR v1  :(y)  I vouch for you Just a Bill.

I totally agree that we need separate docs. First priority should be to finish v1. Then, if our brave candidate is keen to pursue the completion of the v2 as well, I'd be curious how it will evolve but it's not going to convince me to buy it!  ;D I'm also a dinosaur purist.
Title: Re: CAR for Carcassonne v2
Post by: Decar on May 10, 2017, 02:39:00 PM
I definitely agree that the first printing expansions should be finished off before deciding what to do with the new artwork.

I'm not convinced that separate documents should exist, firstly due to the large amount of duplication.  I'm not sure it could be called the Complete Annotated Rules, if they are separated.  To me it would feel more like PAR (Partial) than CAR.  Hans im Glueck have said that the tiles and editions are compatible with one another and there is no reason to separate them.  I think it would also be a great shame to not consider how some of the smaller expansions, which are likely to never be reprinted would operate with newer expansions like 'Under The Big Top' for example.  Regarding the 'optional' farmer rules - The Barn's interaction with farmers was not considered an optional rule - Barns still 'Trigger a Score' and score 3 points like they always did.

The spiel 'XX tiles and some components would need to be removed from the existing document and the Labyrinth tiles were completed by two different artists, the expansion was not released as 'one tile for each version'.

Edit: whoot 3600 posts
Title: Re: CAR for Carcassonne v2
Post by: Just a Bill on May 10, 2017, 05:16:12 PM
I'm not sure it could be called the Complete Annotated Rules, if they are separated.  To me it would feel more like PAR (Partial) than CAR.

"Complete" has more than one context. I would offer the following simple definitions:
I don't know that we need all three of those documents, but I'm certain we're going to end up with at least two of them (the first of which will be the "finished" v1). Then we will have to debate whether the Next Great Document will be the v2 or the v1+v2. The v1+v2 will certainly be the most cumbersome and unwieldly of all, because it will have to have everything for both versions plus all the overhead of dealing with all the differences in terminology, rules, presentation....

Hans im Glueck have said that the tiles and editions are compatible with one another and there is no reason to separate them.

Of course, HiG is going to want to eat their cake and have it too. On the one hand they need to say that all the tiles work together in one big system, to help them finish selling off all the v1 inventory and to convert as many existing players into v2 land as possible. On the other hand, they are going to want to keep developing new content without being constrained by any v1 material that they don't plan to convert to v2. Thus, the "one big happy game" concept is both true and untrue at the same time, depending on one's needs and preferences ... and over time it only has the potential to become less true, not more true. (I have no doubt that future v2 expansions will increasingly make certain v1 expansions incompatible, or at least awkward and messy, when used together. I've watched it happen in virtually every game/fandom I know of that underwent an implementation "reboot," including those of the publisher I worked for.)

Thus, maintaining the concept of "v1+v2 complete" is going to require increasing effort from the player community. And, as the number of v2 expansions reaches (and passes) critical mass, the incentive to mix the two styles probably begins to diminish, because there won't be all that much in v1 that hasn't been converted or superseded by new v2 sets. Everything that players really care about will get either converted, or replaced with an equivalency. (Over time, most everyone stopped caring about VCRs because they had repurchased most of the movies they cared about on DVD; and in the not-too-distant future, DVD players too will go away because the bulk of our collections will be on Blu-Ray.) It's not unreasonable to observe that many of the players who would initially be very interested in a combined CAR would be the same players that will eventually re-buy everything available in the new art style, yes?

Regardless, the CAR is not HiG's document, it's the player community's document. Historically it has been the result of many decisions that HiG probably would not make, such as lists of house rules, commentary on certain failures of official rules documents, history of HiG/RGG/ZMG conflicts and differences, etc. So if the players want separate documents, or a combined document, or both, there's no reason the players can't produce the document(s) they want/need.

I think it would also be a great shame to not consider how some of the smaller expansions, which are likely to never be reprinted would operate with newer expansions like 'Under The Big Top' for example.

This of course cannot be sourced from HiG, and thus adds a whole new layer of "player community consensus" process to determine what those rules should be. (That's one of the reasons I offered for discussion the concept of some kind of conversion/compatibility guide.) This will be a significantly non-trivial effort, which will get re-opened whenever there's a new expansion set.

But I'm probably getting the cart before the horse here, since the first thing that needs to happen is catching up the missing content for the v1 CAR, and that's going to be no small feat!

and the Labyrinth tiles were completed by two different artists, the expansion was not released as 'one tile for each version'.

Maybe I'm not following you here, because it seems to me that's exactly how it was released. The description for the Spiel Doch! magazine says "Including there is the mini-expansion 'Labyrinth' to Carcassonne. One tile in the classic stile and one tile in the new stile of Carcassonne."
Title: Re: CAR for Carcassonne v2
Post by: aenima on May 10, 2017, 11:29:02 PM
I agree with Decar... we  need a CAR with both edition... anyway, if the community wonts one CAR with only the classic edition you can do it, but it must be in addiction to the complete one (and a CAR with only the second edition is a "nonsense" for me).

Title: Re: CAR for Carcassonne v2
Post by: Decar on May 10, 2017, 11:46:48 PM
Thanks for the response Bill,

I agree that HiG can't have it's cake and eat it.  I think it's our duty to continue to ask questions of them.  They will either answer the questions or decide that v2 is a reboot as you say.  If it is a reboot BGG will need to separate out the new edition content from the old edition; at that point they will not be compatible. 

Do not underestimate the CAR, it has been referenced by HiG in the past and even they look to it for guidance on issues.
Title: Re: CAR for Carcassonne v2
Post by: jungleboy on May 11, 2017, 12:47:04 AM
Well said Bill, I agree with a lot of what you wrote.

If it is a reboot BGG will need to separate out the new edition content from the old edition; at that point they will not be compatible. 

I don't think closure on the issue of compatibility rests with BGG. Actually, I don't think there will ever be real closure on it and instead the answer to the question of compatibility rests in the mind of the individual fan. Some fans will play both versions together and others won't. If you feel strongly either way, you aren't going to change your mind just because HiG or BGG or anyone else says they're compatible or not.
Title: Re: CAR for Carcassonne v2
Post by: Paul on May 11, 2017, 01:33:58 AM
I'd love to see an app version. A huge task but worth it in the end.

Not only will it accommodate both versions but it can also filter out.

Other feature that will help:

1. Filter out expansions when playing a game. Only list those expansions, or part of an expansions, used when playing to instantly find the rules.
2. Search functions like typing in "pig" and "barn" will list how these correlate to one another.
3. Flexible turn summary. Show only the mechanics used in this particular games in the correct order.

The app will not be used to constantly look at it during the game, merely as a help when conflict occurs, to keep from spoilers and the fun. Of course, if people want to, they could.

There are many more features that could be add and all those foot notes, instead of them existing in one place, they can be linked to several mechanics.
Title: Re: CAR for Carcassonne v2
Post by: kettlefish on May 11, 2017, 02:17:10 AM
I'd love to see an app version. A huge task but worth it in the end.

Not only will it accommodate both versions but it can also filter out.

Other feature that will help:

1. Filter out expansions when playing a game. Only list those expansions, or part of an expansions, used when playing to instantly find the rules.
2. Search functions like typing in "pig" and "barn" will list how these correlate to one another.
3. Flexible turn summary. Show only the mechanics used in this particular games in the correct order.

The app will not be used to constantly look at it during the game, merely as a help when conflict occurs, to keep from spoilers and the fun. Of course, if people want to, they could.

There are many more features that could be add and all those foot notes, instead of them existing in one place, they can be linked to several mechanics.
I am creating an excel x-rule table at the moment, but it is in German.
Title: Re: CAR for Carcassonne v2
Post by: flipshot on May 11, 2017, 10:16:09 AM
The main question that needs to be answered is if users of version 1.0 will adopt any and all rule revisions/changes from the 2.0 re-release. If so, then one CAR document will suffice. If there will be a diversion of rules from v 1.0 to v 2.0, then having 2 CAR documents makes more sense. Case in point, the new wagon rules. If there will be 2 CARs, then v 1.0 should keep the old rule, and v 2.0 should have the new. If the new wagon rule will be universally accepted by all carc players, then 1 CAR will do the job. It makes no difference to me which way we go, but I will always adopt the most recent rules as proper way to play.
Title: Re: CAR for Carcassonne v2
Post by: whaleyland on May 11, 2017, 03:16:42 PM
It makes no difference to me which way we go, but I will always adopt the most recent rules as proper way to play.
I too will usually play with the most recent rules, so on this point I agree that a single document may suffice. That being said, I think an update to the current CAR (without any New Art material) should be done first and made permanently available as a separate document. I think this is universally agreed, so there really is no issue over whether or not CAR 7.5 needs to be done first.

The issue is simply over whether the CAR for the new rules should include the old information or be new-information-only. Because of all the crap and confusion caused by Hans im Glück, CundCo, Spielbox, and Rio Grande over the years, I think it just makes more sense to release a new-rules-only document. We are never going to get a rules clarification for how The Tunnels interacts with the Watchtowers, or how The Cathars or Plague works with the Ringmaster (or whatever). Hans im Glück never really considered those Spielbox expansions official to begin with, but now they have completely given up trying to reconcile them with the game. Then there are expansions like Cult, Siege & Creativity which will never be re-released because they don't have to be. I feel the old document should deal with these issues and the new document can, at least hypothetically, be much cleaner and streamlined to deal with the new material exclusively. When I play the game, I can choose to either play old Wagon or new Wagon rules, with the understanding that the new Wagon rules are not the original rules. But new audiences don't need to know that. People playing their Abbey & Mayor 2.0 should not have to worry about the original rules when those rules are no longer valid.

One of the larger issues really seems to be terminology, and I, for one, do not like changing Followers to Meeples or Cloisters to Monasteries. I am not sure how to reconcile changes such as these in a combined document and I think it suggests that such a document should not be made.
Title: Re: CAR for Carcassonne v2
Post by: danisthirty on May 12, 2017, 01:17:27 AM
If the purpose of the CAR is to explain all rules and to describe how these rules can be applied to resolve difficulties caused by the interactions between various expansions then surely one of the goals of the document is that it must be clear and easy to read/ understand. Perhaps I’m in the minority here, but I just can’t see the point of maintaining a single document if it’s going to be so over-complicated by various subtle rule changes introduced by various publishers over the years, and now the difference between artwork versions too! I have absolute confidence in Just a Bill’s abilities as a technical author, but I can’t imagine any kind of “complete” document that could cover both versions without being a mess of clauses and if, buts and maybes for 50% of the rules. Despite being complete in its official sense, there would be so much unnecessary bloat that I can’t see it actually being a lot of help to anyone...

Also, let’s think about who the target audience is going to be. Most of the fans of the old artwork are allergic to the new artwork and won’t go anywhere near it in case they explode. Remember when jungleboy was hospitalised after accidentally picking up one of the new edition boxes shortly after they first came out? Fortunately it was still in shrink-wrap otherwise it could have been much worse. All they want is a version of the CAR which is complete in terms of old artwork. Newer fans of the game don’t care what expansions existed purely in the old artwork as it doesn’t match their version of the base game. I might be generalising slightly here, but since we’re never going to get any official rulings from HiG over interactions between old artwork exclusive expansions and new artwork exclusive expansions is there any point trying to cover them? Anything that turns out not to be an old artwork exclusive (i.e. it gets released in the new artwork) will be covered in the new CAR anyway, probably with entirely new rules that don’t match the old rules.

I think we need to admit that enough is enough with the traditional CAR and accept, as HiG appears to have done, that the original artwork version of the game which so many of us know and love, really is a mess of rules. If we have an opportunity to leave that behind and start again then we should be embracing it. In my opinion, attempting to take all of that baggage with us as we move forward is dooming ourselves to failure before we’ve even begun. :(
Title: Re: CAR for Carcassonne v2
Post by: aenima on May 12, 2017, 01:20:28 AM
It makes no difference to me which way we go, but I will always adopt the most recent rules as proper way to play.
I too will usually play with the most recent rules, so on this point I agree that a single document may suffice. That being said, I think an update to the current CAR (without any New Art material) should be done first and made permanently available as a separate document. I think this is universally agreed, so there really is no issue over whether or not CAR 7.5 needs to be done first.

one day,when I didn't know how to update the Italian CAR about abbeys and mayors, a wise person named Decar sayd me...
"I think you have a responsibility to share the latest rules from Hans Im Gluck and then discuss the  changes, just like the original, revised and re-revised farming rules."
So, I did so, it works and I think it's important to give the opportunity to all the fan (no matter from the classic or new edition) to know the differences and to can choose the rules they want...

anyway... has noone ever noticed that we can play "The phantoms", "little buildings" and "The messenger" from the classic edition with the new edition without graphic problem?
and then... some people (like if I remember well msnumers) play Watchtowers with the classic edition without any problem?
...

Like I sayd before, it's ok to "close" the classic CAR with a 7.5 verison with (why not) only the classic edition and give space to a new CAR with both... we can't separate the new one from the old one...

anyway it's always my opinion...  :o
Title: Re: CAR for Carcassonne v2
Post by: ny1050220 on May 12, 2017, 06:36:43 AM
Perhaps I’m in the minority here, but I just can’t see the point of maintaining a single document if it’s going to be so over-complicated by various subtle rule changes introduced by various publishers over the years, and now the difference between artwork versions too!
I don't know you are the minority, but you're surely not the only one.

Also, I feel we are making this issue overly complicated not for a good reason. Why don't we produce two separate files for v1 and v2, as at least some of us agree on that and object to a 'complete' document with both versions. And those who insist on the "one document for all" policy can then build the file based on the two. Of course, this means that they'll have to deal with the terminology, different rules, graphical examples, etc., but it's at least easier (I know, still not easy) at that time. Sounds reasonable?
Title: Re: CAR for Carcassonne v2
Post by: jungleboy on May 12, 2017, 07:01:34 AM
Most of the fans of the old artwork are allergic to the new artwork and won’t go anywhere near it in case they explode. Remember when jungleboy was hospitalised after accidentally picking up one of the new edition boxes shortly after they first came out? Fortunately it was still in shrink-wrap otherwise it could have been much worse.

 :(y) :(y)

I fear that some of those rashes will never go away.
Title: Re: CAR for Carcassonne v2
Post by: SRBO on May 12, 2017, 07:07:34 AM
I vote for a finished Car 1.0, and a new car 2.0

With Car 1.0 finished. its finished and the document is done.

with the addition of gardens, Abbot and some slight rule changes its better to get a Car 2.0
Title: Re: CAR for Carcassonne v2
Post by: Vasek on May 12, 2017, 11:26:29 AM
I do agree with SRBO, we need two documents. One for classic Carcassonne and on for version 2.0.
I would never play a game with the mixed graphics and I think combining both versions in one document is useless!
Looking forward for the updated CARs.