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Carc Central Community => General => Topic started by: dirk2112 on April 14, 2016, 08:31:48 PM

Title: Favouritism Poll #5 : Start Tile
Post by: dirk2112 on April 14, 2016, 08:31:48 PM
Decar thought this question was good enough to temporarily bump the others he has planned for you.   The question we have is:

What start tile do you prefer to play with?

At first I was going to ask which start tile was your favorite, but that leaves too much room for interpretation.  You might think Carcassonne town looks the best or maybe you might pick the school for the cause it supports.  Let's not worry about any of that.  For game play purposes only, what is your preference?

When we first got the game, we played with the standard start tile and the spring.  Back and forth we went.  More recently, we obtained all but one of the start tiles (as you can tell from the photos below).  As my family and I were trying different tiles, I asked them which they preferred and all of us had different answers.  I am curious to see if there is an even split between 2 or 3 of the options or one big runaway winner.   

Thanks to Decar for letting me be the guest pollster.  He said to wait until tomorrow and it is tomorrow his time, so hopefully I don't get sacked.  :yellow-meeple:
Title: Re: Favouritism Poll #5 : Start Tile
Post by: whaleyland on April 14, 2016, 08:55:45 PM
I prefer the look of the City of Carcassonne (the single-tile version were the colour correct) but when it comes to actually playing the game, we pretty much always play with just the original start tile. We generally don't play with The River because it does not add much to the game but takes more time, and I don't like including other elements if we are not playing with that expansion. Sadly, when it comes down to it, I don't really like The Count, Wheel of Fortune, The Windroses, or The School very much, so we just play with the regular start tile or, in some games, one of The Rivers.

That being said, I am very much in support of creating better start tiles – maybe even a start-tile pack – so there is some variety at the beginning of the game. I created some start tiles for the major fan expansions (forests, mountains, and lakes, I believe) but I haven't done anything since then. It would be rather fun to have a start tile that uses the Labyrinth artwork but merges it with a City and Field segment (the Labyrinth art would have to be shrunk a little to allow players to claim the remaining two Roads better). I also think a start tile with a few of the features could work well, such as an Inn or a Sheep or a Volcano (like River II has). Obviously the only features that would work are those that do not need to be immediately claimed.
Title: Re: Favouritism Poll #5 : Start Tile
Post by: SRBO on April 14, 2016, 10:12:52 PM
The regular one is still my favourite, nothing takes away the indescribable feeling of starting the game with the most simple single tile in the game.

Title: Re: Favouritism Poll #5 : Start Tile
Post by: Rosco on April 14, 2016, 11:24:00 PM
I am a big fan of the school. I like the art and I think it adds something quite interesting to the start of the game.  I find it a challenge to keep it in mind and make sure that if I have to score something it is a small road outer similar to reduce the teacher bonus.

Sent from my LT22i using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Favouritism Poll #5 : Start Tile
Post by: whaleyland on April 14, 2016, 11:44:28 PM
I am a big fan of the school. I like the art and I think it adds something quite interesting to the start of the game.  I find it a challenge to keep it in mind and make sure that if I have to score something it is a small road outer similar to reduce the teacher bonus.

Sent from my LT22i using Tapatalk
I've always had two problems with the School: 1) I hate the palm trees – there should not be palm trees in medieval France, and 2) if you draw a tile without a road at the beginning of the game, you have to draw again, which is annoying.
Title: Re: Favouritism Poll #5 : Start Tile
Post by: asparagus on April 14, 2016, 11:53:49 PM
We  like starting with the T-junction river tile. The spring with road and two river termini are in the draw stack. So I'm the one who voted for "Other".
Title: Re: Favouritism Poll #5 : Start Tile
Post by: Karcalijn on April 15, 2016, 12:01:08 AM
We learned the game with wheel of fortune. So now, carcasonne isnt carcasonne for me without it. Plus, i like that you have different options in the beginning and your field is a bit bigger.
Title: Re: Favouritism Poll #5 : Start Tile
Post by: Paul on April 15, 2016, 12:22:29 AM
The Starter Tile.

Although expansions can be fun (in my opinion) my group rarely wants to participate in a game larger than the base set and Inns and Cathedrals, with the exception of adding Traders and Builders now and then. And I don't mind really. The large games are best played on rare basis anyway.
Title: Re: Favouritism Poll #5 : Start Tile
Post by: Decar on April 15, 2016, 12:48:34 AM
I think palm trees growing in the south of France is more believable/likely than: German Cathedrals in anywhere but Germany, Dragons anywhere or Darmstadt....

I'm going to vote for the vanilla starter tile.  Most games I play are 2 player and things like the River and the Wheel give too many options for players to start the game with.
School is a close second.

I said before I really like the windrose. Buy felt the blue tose should have started it.
Title: Re: Favouritism Poll #5 : Start Tile
Post by: whaleyland on April 15, 2016, 01:17:19 AM
I think palm trees growing in the south of France is more believable/likely than: German Cathedrals in anywhere but Germany, Dragons anywhere or Darmstadt....
True, but we are discussing start tiles and none of those are that. That being said, I have only ever played with Darmstadt once and I generally don't play with German anything except in special test games. Yes I own all those tiles, but I don't play with them much. Theme is a major thing for me in games so expansions that deviate from them I do not enjoy as much. Dragons, well those are another story. At least it is a medieval theme that can work geographically anywhere, even if it is fantasy.
Title: Re: Favouritism Poll #5 : Start Tile
Post by: meepleater on April 15, 2016, 01:27:39 AM
2) if you draw a tile without a road at the beginning of the game, you have to draw again, which is annoying.

I'm fairly sure the school tiles are used in addition to the regular starting tile (placed on one side)- so there should be a space for city and field tiles.
Title: Re: Favouritism Poll #5 : Start Tile
Post by: Christopher on April 15, 2016, 01:46:04 AM
The Windroses! My favourite is the Wind Rose tile, because I'm a huge fan of this expansion. We house rule it, and play a variant, but I like this tile for several reasons. The first being, I love the addition of cardinal points. Of a compass. The developing landscape always felt like a map to me, and so adding a compass is delightful. I love the artwork, too, although I realise that wasn't the question being asked. But also, I like single tile starters. If I hadn't chosen the Wind Rose, it would have been the standard start tile. I find that large starting areas, such as the Wheel of Fortune, the City of Carcassonne and the River encourage different play styles. When everything is built from a single tile, players start off right on top of one another. Everyone is making plays for the same features, and it sets the tone of the game. Not aggressive, necessarily, but... of that vein. With a large starting area, everyone expands in their own area. There's no need to build into other player's features because there's plenty of space. It changes the game. So, the Wind Rose is a single tile with a bit more going on than the normal tile. That being said, we don't always play Wind Roses, so I actually use standard tile more often.

I like the River II when playing with the dragon because the early volcano brings him in quickly. The only problem is that if an attack comes too quickly he's like water down a gully, hitting everything in his path.

The School is odd. I've never understood why it was a start tile. Using a school road right at the beginning of the game is pointless because there's nothing worth getting. When playing with this expansion, we either use another additional start tile, or don't use the School as a start tile at all. We mix one of the school tiles in with the rest of the tiles and set the other to the side. When it is drawn, it gets placed as normal and the other tile is added to it. This requires use of a bag, and some fiddly rules about placing the school tile, but it means the School appears at a more interesting time in the game.

The City of Carcassonne is lovely. Beautiful tile. Fun to start with as it doesn't change the initial tile deployment of the game, unlike the River. With the City, you play as normal from the start, instead of having your play dictated for the first twelve tiles. The City does suffer the aforementioned problem though, of spreading players out a bit more. Not necessarily a problem though.

For my money then, I like the Wind Roses, but probably use the standard tile more often.
Title: Re: Favouritism Poll #5 : Start Tile
Post by: Decar on April 15, 2016, 01:48:21 AM
I'm fairly sure the school tiles are used in addition to the regular starting tile (placed on one side)- so there should be a space for city and field tiles.

Indeed  :(y)
Title: Re: Favouritism Poll #5 : Start Tile
Post by: Rosco on April 15, 2016, 02:12:51 AM
In regards to using a standard start tile along side the school, it is true that this would improve things in some ways but I dont like more than necessary on the table at the start unless it is going to be a huge game.    So to start with the full start tile set up of: vanilla start, wind rose, school, city, windrose, river 1, river 2, river 3 and anything else i have missed would just be ridiculous unless it was mega carcassonne.
Title: Re: Favouritism Poll #5 : Start Tile
Post by: Decar on April 15, 2016, 02:20:30 AM
For the school another start tile is necessary.  Otherwise 27 of the base game tiles can't be played at the start of the game because they don't have roads.

Take a look at the HiG Die Schule Rules PDF (http://www.hans-im-glueck.de/fileadmin/data_archive/Regeln/CC_Schule_Regel.pdf).

I think CKorfman and Paul both created some mega-starting setups on another thread a few months ago.
Title: Re: Favouritism Poll #5 : Start Tile
Post by: asparagus on April 15, 2016, 02:34:57 AM
2) if you draw a tile without a road at the beginning of the game, you have to draw again, which is annoying.

I'm fairly sure the school tiles are used in addition to the regular starting tile (placed on one side)- so there should be a space for city and field tiles.

Yeah I think last time I played the school I forgot that rule. Maybe we would play it more if we got it right.
Title: Re: Favouritism Poll #5 : Start Tile
Post by: dirk2112 on April 15, 2016, 04:39:48 AM
I've always had two problems with the School: 1) I hate the palm trees – there should not be palm trees in medieval France, and 2) if you draw a tile without a road at the beginning of the game, you have to draw again, which is annoying.

We use the school the same way Christopher does and throw one of the tiles in the stack. 

Also the palm trees explain where King Arthur got his coconuts.  As we all know coconuts don't migrate and I don't want to get into an argument over whether or not a swallow can carry them.
Title: Re: Favouritism Poll #5 : Start Tile
Post by: Decar on April 15, 2016, 04:46:14 AM
+1 for a fantastic reference!

Edit: meant to add perhaps we should test if you're a duck..
Title: Re: Favouritism Poll #5 : Start Tile
Post by: Valheru on April 15, 2016, 05:24:25 AM
I find this a very difficult poll to answer. It all depends on the game you want to play.

The school is a very road dependent beginning of the game. Especially combined with A&M, you get an interesting game later on with small farms .

Opposing to the school, using the river (GQ excluded) or the wheel/count starting tile(s), you get big farms and a very different game. I think Christopher said it right:

I find that large starting areas, such as the Wheel of Fortune, the City of Carcassonne and the River encourage different play styles. When everything is built from a single tile, players start off right on top of one another. Everyone is making plays for the same features, and it sets the tone of the game. Not aggressive, necessarily, but... of that vein. With a large starting area, everyone expands in their own area. There's no need to build into other player's features because there's plenty of space. It changes the game.

So for the sake of playing and competing for farms, I would say the larger the better. If you want a different game, take the standard tile or the school. I've recently played with the school and really enjoyed the different tone in that game so for now, I'll vote that one. Although the river gives a nice board.. Darn it haha. The school it is!
Title: Re: Favouritism Poll #5 : Start Tile
Post by: franks on April 15, 2016, 06:51:45 PM
Easy choice for me - The School, (along with the start tile).

I really like what it brings to the early game with roads and bonus scoring.

It may be out of place but I never notice the palm trees - these old eyes can't bother with such details  ::)

We have added an extra house rule where the three lower roads are treated like Inn on the Lake to add a few more points to the early game - but that is a separate matter  :)

We use to play with the Wind Roses but felt it got lost in our long game and didn't amount to much.

Never liked the river :P

Title: Re: Favouritism Poll #5 : Start Tile
Post by: Neil on April 15, 2016, 08:05:37 PM
This is a tough one. I chose the spring as I usually play two player and the river makes a great starting place as it comes with the base game.

When playing with more than two players we like to start with the carcassonne town tile (the count) and then start with two, or three depending on player count, spring tiles. This makes for an interesting play as sometimes you get two really short rivers and one super long river.

As for the school, we currently play with it in game. We place all the left tile of the school pieces in the draw bag and set all the right tiles to the side of the table. When a school tile is drawn the player gets the other half of it to play. I'm currently designing proxy tiles to print on blank tiles so I can pile all of the draw tiles on the table instead of inside a bag. Those blue bags just aren't big enough to get an efficient mix when playing a large game.

I've never played with the wheel of time so I don't have much of an opinion on that.
Title: Re: Favouritism Poll #5 : Start Tile
Post by: jungleboy on April 15, 2016, 10:36:19 PM
I put the standard tile but it was out of default more than anything else. My regular partner doesn't care much for the River so we rarely use it. We only use the City of Carcassonne or the Wheel of Fortune if we're playing with those expansions. And we've literally never played with the Wind Roses or the School.
Title: Re: Favouritism Poll #5 : Start Tile
Post by: danisthirty on April 15, 2016, 11:56:22 PM
Also the palm trees explain where King Arthur got his coconuts.  As we all know coconuts don't migrate and I don't want to get into an argument over whether or not a swallow can carry them.

What do you mean? An African or European swallow? ;)

I have voted for the standard, classic, awesome crfr vanilla start tile. My biggest problem with this is that the starting player has a 33% chance of drawing a city cap, completing the city and getting a 4-point head start for little reason other than that they went first. Other than this though, I don't like there being too many options from the start and like how the number of available placement opportunities increases in the early part of the game. In my opinion, several of the other starting tiles (notably rivers, the count and the wheel of fortune) spoil the early competition that is usually rife by giving players too many options, but I still recognise that they can be fun from time to time.

Aesthetically, I also enjoy how the entire landscape extends out from a single tile at the start of the game, and that the landscape is entirely different every time.
Title: Re: Favouritism Poll #5 : Start Tile
Post by: asparagus on April 16, 2016, 12:03:11 AM
Other than this though, I don't like there being too many options from the start and like how the number of available placement opportunities increases in the early part of the game. In my opinion, several of the other starting tiles (notably rivers, the count and the wheel of fortune) spoil the early competition that is usually rife by giving players too many options, but I still recognise that they can be fun from time to time.

I think you are being a little harsh on rivers here. As the river extends people are taking bets on limited information on what will be worthwhile. Obviously an early farmer is a good start but how do you know it won't be hedged in by roads? Monasteries are a nice little earner but can end up awkward to finish. It's a different game from the basic starting tile but I don't think its worse in any sense.
Title: Re: Favouritism Poll #5 : Start Tile
Post by: danisthirty on April 16, 2016, 12:57:55 AM
Other than this though, I don't like there being too many options from the start and like how the number of available placement opportunities increases in the early part of the game. In my opinion, several of the other starting tiles (notably rivers, the count and the wheel of fortune) spoil the early competition that is usually rife by giving players too many options, but I still recognise that they can be fun from time to time.

I think you are being a little harsh on rivers here. As the river extends people are taking bets on limited information on what will be worthwhile. Obviously an early farmer is a good start but how do you know it won't be hedged in by roads? Monasteries are a nice little earner but can end up awkward to finish. It's a different game from the basic starting tile but I don't think its worse in any sense.

All true (well, mostly, but that's just my opinion). I was literally just stating my preference as everyone else has been in this poll. To reiterate, one of the things I like about Carcassonne is how opportunities expand out from a central point and the competitiveness and/ or aggression that comes with it. Rivers aren't inherently bad in any way, and I said as much (see bold part of my quote), but I prefer to play without them as I don't like the number of options/ choices that they present from the early part of the game.

Sorry if this was taken to be an unduly harsh dig at rivers in general, this certainly wasn't my intention. :(
Title: Re: Favouritism Poll #5 : Start Tile
Post by: ny1050220 on April 16, 2016, 04:36:02 PM
I use the spring in GQ11, and all the "interesting" river tiles in river I and II. You may ask, what is interesting? All of the rfrf and rrff tiles without additional features, i.e., road, cloister, city, or pig herd, are not interesting.
Title: Re: Favouritism Poll #5 : Start Tile
Post by: ARabidMeerkat on April 16, 2016, 04:40:56 PM
Since we have all of these, we really should use a variety to begin with.... but we're boring so we always use the spring!
Title: Re: Favouritism Poll #5 : Start Tile
Post by: CKorfmann on April 16, 2016, 07:18:40 PM
I think CKorfman and Paul both created some mega-starting setups on another thread a few months ago.

I don't recall discussing it, but that doesn't mean I didn't...  :o

I do favor starting with several, if not all, of them at once, for whatever expansions you are playing with, though I haven't had an opportunity to play with all of them yet.  I always include the regular start tile in with the rest of the river tiles when playing the river.
Title: Re: Favouritism Poll #5 : Start Tile
Post by: Valheru on April 17, 2016, 05:46:15 PM
I must say, to me, Die Schule is a surprising third in the poll.

Hurray for education!
Title: Re: Favouritism Poll #5 : Start Tile
Post by: dirk2112 on April 17, 2016, 06:29:52 PM
I must say, to me, Die Schule is a surprising third in the poll.

Hurray for education!

I underestimated the school and overestimated the count's Tableau
Title: Re: Favouritism Poll #5 : Start Tile
Post by: whaleyland on April 17, 2016, 08:08:47 PM
I must say, to me, Die Schule is a surprising third in the poll.

Hurray for education!

I underestimated the school and overestimated the count's Tableau
The City of Carcassonne is a beautiful piece of art, but when you use it, it opens up 14 potential spaces that players can start from – which is a lot – and it also implies that players can play with the Count expansion, which many don't want to do.
Title: Re: Favouritism Poll #5 : Start Tile
Post by: Carcking on April 18, 2016, 11:36:07 AM
I built a randomizer chart that we use so every game is different and we don't get stuck in a rut for what is comfortable, or that has easy rules that we remember. My randomizer also has the start tile randomized so that is different every time. I voted for the random start tile.
Title: Re: Favouritism Poll #5 : Start Tile
Post by: ned_ballad on April 18, 2016, 12:03:47 PM
Carc II river, but we throw the base game starting tile in the bag and use it like a normal tile, since the back doesn't matter, since it's in a bag.
Title: Re: Favouritism Poll #5 : Start Tile
Post by: Decar on April 22, 2016, 10:28:47 AM
The results for your favourite Start Tiles are in:

13 people voted for 'Standard' while 12 voted for one of the River Options.  I'm quite surprised how close these were!  Die Schule was also a very popular option with 5 votes.  The City of Carcassonne and Wheel of Fortune only scored 2 votes each and poor Wind Rose only got 1 vote.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts and variations with us. Like I've been saying everyweek:  The Poll will remain open for late comers but we've moved into more exciting things.  Over the next few days the completionist polls will be coming out a little faster, so keep you eyes peeled.

This week we ask you:

Do you need all the phantom boxes? (http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=2656.0)