A maze of rules

[Scott]

I like some of Derek's ideas, but I agree with those who have commented on the difficulties. I don't think we'd reach a consensus, so let's focus on what we can agree on.

I think the following structure is best, and would be a significant improvement over the structure of version 7.3:
1. Base Game (+ Carc 2.0)
2. Major numbered expansions + Wheel of Fortune
3. Mini expansions (alphabetical)

I'm slightly inclined towards sorting the 6 or 7 minis alphabetically by name (no prefixes). Although they were numbered by the publishers, I'm concerned that the numbers could be confusing to newcomers.

I would support not having a separate page for CS&C. Cult is part of CK&C, Siege is similar enough to Cathars and Besiegers to include it on one of those pages, and Creativity is two blank tiles that have less value than the Spiel 2014 tile. However, if you guys would prefer to keep Siege/Cathars/Besiegers as three separate expansions, I'm ok with that too. I wouldn't be surprised if we end up revisiting this again in the future if HiG decides to make it part of a new large expansion.

Regarding the Abbot, the Carc2 rules already relegate the Abbot information to the supplement sheet along with the River and farm rules, so I don't think listing it separately in the CAR is an issue. For me, and others who have been playing this game since the beginning, the River expansion has a much stronger association with the base game, but I think we all agree that the River is rightfully in the mini-expansions section and not integrated into the base game rules in the CAR.

[Whaleyland]

As an alternative for The River, it could be merged into King, Count & Cult with River II. Obviously we'd need to reference that fact, but it could work. More of the side-by-side solution proposed by Kettlefish regarding Corn Circles.

[obervet]

Ok,
obervet, do you need some more historical and background information about the differences for some of the minis (Windroses I+II, Cathars/Sieges/Besiegers, Festival...) ?

I think I have a pretty good idea of the pertinent historical info for the different sets. But if you have particularly interesting behind-the-scenes gossip, feel free to share. 

[obervet]

I'm slightly inclined towards sorting the 6 or 7 minis alphabetically by name (no prefixes). Although they were numbered by the publishers, I'm concerned that the numbers could be confusing to newcomers.

I'm leaning this way as well, for that exact reason. (The number will still be there, just after the name).

I would support not having a separate page for CS&C. Cult is part of CK&C, Siege is similar enough to Cathars and Besiegers to include it on one of those pages, and Creativity is two blank tiles that have less value than the Spiel 2014 tile. However, if you guys would prefer to keep Siege/Cathars/Besiegers as three separate expansions, I'm ok with that too. I wouldn't be surprised if we end up revisiting this again in the future if HiG decides to make it part of a new large expansion.

I think I would like to break up CS&C too. I might still give it a page with a single paragraph of explanation, but it may just depend on how everything looks when the dust settles. Cathars/Siege/Besiegers really should all go together in my mind.

Regarding the Abbot, the Carc2 rules already relegate the Abbot information to the supplement sheet along with the River and farm rules, so I don't think listing it separately in the CAR is an issue. For me, and others who have been playing this game since the beginning, the River expansion has a much stronger association with the base game, but I think we all agree that the River is rightfully in the mini-expansions section and not integrated into the base game rules in the CAR.

Agreed. Even when River I is included with the base game, the rules come on the last page, treating it as an expansion (or perhaps an inspansion, as a manufacturer that I can't remember has called them).

As an alternative for The River, it could be merged into King, Count & Cult with River II. Obviously we'd need to reference that fact, but it could work. More of the side-by-side solution proposed by Kettlefish regarding Corn Circles.

Although the rules are basically the same, I fear that the multiple versions of River I merged into River II might make this too confusing. I think I'd have to play around with the formatting to see if this would be workable or messy.

[cidervampire]

Will the Easter Bunny expansion be included in the CAR as it seems to be the most official fan expansion?

[Whaleyland]

Will the Easter Bunny expansion be included in the CAR as it seems to be the most official fan expansion?

No. There's already enough dissent regarding the entry for La Porxada, an officially sanctioned unofficial expansion. I think that's more than enough unofficial expansions for the CAR.

[jungleboy]

No. There's already enough dissent regarding the entry for La Porxada, an officially sanctioned unofficial expansion. I think that's more than enough unofficial expansions for the CAR.

Plus Darmstadt is in the CAR as well. Which gives me yet another opportunity to express my annoyance with Darmstadt and its acceptance as basically official. 

[Guy]

Ok, so here's what i've put together based on the great work by Obervet.

I have put together a re-ordered CAR with a few extra diagrams for expansions like Shrines and Heretics and The Plague - hopefully to clear a few things up.

I have stripped out a lot so we're down to just the rules so there's no tile references or glossary.

One of the things I really wanted to make sure of was that it was something that was relatively easy to pick up for new players.  As such I have controversially put the River expansion immediately after the base game rules.  I know that this will cause some controversy but I feel that it makes finding the rules for new players much easier.

The order of the contents are this:

Base game
Carcassonne II
River
Major Expansions
Wheel of Fortune
Mini Expansions (alphabetical order - condensed Siege, no shrine as it's in the major expansion CKR, condensed Monasteries around the world)
Appendix - Playing Pieces reference & Scoring

Let me know what you think.

EDIT: Link removed until further clarifications and editing done.

[Allan in Brisbane]

One of the things I really wanted to make sure of was that it was something that was relatively easy to pick up for new players.

As a newer player I think this is a great document - it would be good to "field" test it to see if the answers the questions which come up during the game can be found.
I'd humbly like to suggest that the CAR section "Order of Play" might be re-included.
We found ourselves referring to that aspect on numerous occasions - especially when we began to learn the various extensions.

[Carcking]

Agreed. We don't want to lose the Order of Play as a resource.

[kettlefish]

Hi Guy,
your itention of the 2nd version of the CAR has some interesting parts, but:

It is much work to make the correction reading for the CAR (author: obervet).
I have no time to check two different versions of the CAR.

I like it that you put the minis published in the 6th expansion in that section.

I still prefer to put the Minis 1-6(7) under the Numbers order than mixed with the other minis in alphabetical order.
As I have told here in this thread - the next series of minis #8-#... will come in one or two years (hopefully).

[obervet]

A few general thoughts about the new document:

Obviously it's a work in progress, but it will need a new name. CAR doesn't really fit because there's already a CAR, this document isn't as complete, and it's much less annotated.

I understand the utility of consolidation of the rules. However, some of the footnotes that have been left out and not incorporated in the text are some of the questions and clarifications that newer players have asked about on these forums. Thus, exclusion of some things may leave players back where we started before the days of the CAR.

On a similar tack, removing some of the notes about variation in rules between sets helps streamline the rules. But if a new player reads his or her ZMG rules and the new guide and sees that the rules (e.g. fairy rules) are different with no explanation about the discrepancy, that would be pretty confusing.

Finally, be careful about putting this out there with no attributions or copyright statements or anything. All of the rules and images belong to HiG, RGG, and ZMG. Many of the footnotes are the words of Georg Wild, kettlefish, and me. Regarding the Order of Play that others want, I myself spent hours reworking, rewording, and reconfiguring that to try to mesh with the current state of the rules (on the foundation of others, such as SkullOne).

As I've noted before, I think a streamlined document would be great. But it has to be done right, because ambiguities or contradictions between the two documents will not be good for growing our community.

[Guy]

Thanks for the feedback. Based on the comments that have been made I have removed the link until further edits have been done, primarily so there's no confusion for new players between versions.

I may make another edition of it (including re ordering the minis 1-6) if there is going to be a new set of minis in the future - which in itself is exciting news! - but as I don't want to create more work for kettlefish checking two versions of a rules document I may leave it to obervet.

[nanoanno]

a) New minis is wonderful news... I remember when they were first released in a local shop. It was truly what inspired me to really grow my Carc collection

b) Would it be too complicated/too much work to reference the CAR from this new document? I'm thinking for an explanation of the fairy rule changes. Maybe this new document would only contain the most current version of the rules with a note to reference the CAR for complete version history.

c) On that note, what about calling it the SAR (Simplified Annotated Rules)?

d) Complete personal opinion here, but I find the turn order information to be of great use. I believe this is one the most challenging aspects of mega-carc to grasp. So even if the full explanation isn't included in this new document, I think an abbreviated version would be extremely helpful (with reference to the CAR for full blown explanations and examples).

[obervet]

Princess, Mayor, and Wagon discussion split to new thread.