How many tiles are left?

[SxN]

I like to play Scrabble. The analogy with Carcassonne is remarkable: both are tile placing games, for both there are certain rules on how tiles are layed and then there are scoring rules. For both, players take turns in randomly selecting the next tile (perhaps plural in Scrabble's case) out of the set of unplayed tiles.

In Scrabble's case, the tile's distribution is printed on the board: how many A's, how many B's, etc (dependent on language). Carcassonne does not do the same, but should it? There is a difference between knowing that a certain tile configuration (say CRFF) is in the bag or it isn't, versus hoping that it is in the bag (or isn't). For competitional Carcassonne, knowing how many tiles of each configuration are and calculating what is left in the bag may be a skill differentiating the Champion from the rest of the crowd. For home games, with friends, with kids, with all kind of expansions, it might be useful to have this information stated somewhere (and somehow).

Would this spoil the game, will it be in Carcassonne's spirit, or maybe it is a matter of taste? What do you think?

Linkback: https://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=5017.0

[Bumsakalaka]

Well, as told somewhere (during my last game) that counting of cards is forbidden in Las Vegas.

Yes that's true. But counting of tiles is one of strategy advantage of this game. On WikiCarpedia.com you can find tile distribution for every game.

Difference between Scrabble and Carcassonne is, that every different combination of (more that +-40 different official expansions) make different tile distribution.

Than is for example Expansion 9 contains Hills expansion which is fighting againts tile counter, because you have to place next tile under tile with hill without look to that tile.

So at end of game you discover, that Fruit bearing tree was one of "underhill" tile, or Cathedral, etc.

Anyway, when playing JCloisterZone, in 4.x version you can press F11 to show tile distribution during game, in 5.x there is possible to show which tiles are still in stack, but this can be disabled when playing for example league etc.

Or you can print those and have it as sheet ;-)

[SxN]

I think that, at the end of the day, my question boils down to this:
- is printing the tile distribution on a sheet the fair approach, so that all (non-competitional) players have a fair chance or
- is printing taking away something from the game by making some calculations too simple?

I haven't played that much, I'm new to the Carcassonne universe, trying to gauge the experience of advanced players and learn from it.

[Meepledrone]

In my experience, printing the tile distributions is okay to check available tiles from time to time just out of curiosity. It can be useful and a learning tool for games with a few expansions, but people will not check every tile... Normally use them to verify if that particular tile you may need "exists."

In the early days, playing with the base game, Exp. 1 & 2 and King & Robber was enough to have at least one tile in each edge configuration. Tile lists were manageable back then.

The use of hills (Exp. 9 - Hills & Sheep) may deem tile counting not as effective, as mentioned earlier. Abbeys (Exp. 5 - Abbey & Mayor) allow players to close gaps important to them. Also bridges (Exp. 8 - Castles, Bridges and Bazaars) add some flexibility to tile placement due to the addition of "extra" road segments. As a result of all this, the urge for a tile list may not be that important in the end.

[Decar]

Tile counting is an integral part of Carcassonne strategy. The tiles that have been played are public knowledge, so you cannot reasonably ask someone to not count or track the tiles that have been played.  For beginners, knowing the last few tiles at the end of the game can help you make important decisions when maximising your points. As you learn to count more tiles you can make those important decisions sooner.

Dan posted a nice blog about it:
http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=1458.msg18263#msg18263


I also made this a few years ago, to help counting:

[danisthirty]

For competitional Carcassonne, knowing how many tiles of each configuration are and calculating what is left in the bag may be a skill differentiating the Champion from the rest of the crowd. For home games, with friends, with kids, with all kind of expansions, it might be useful to have this information stated somewhere (and somehow).

Would this spoil the game, will it be in Carcassonne's spirit, or maybe it is a matter of taste? What do you think?

In my experience of playing Carcassonne competitively it's not so much that being able to count tiles separates the winner from everyone else, but not being able to count tiles separates the loser from everyone else. It's an important skill that shouldn't be underestimated if you're serious about winning, and it's worth learning the tile distribution and recognising how to group tiles and count them on the landscape during games if you find yourself losing more than you'd like. It isn't actually very hard, it just takes practice.

Being able to count the tiles accurately and quickly is a skill that gives you an advantage over a player that can't do this, or can't do it as well as you can. Games aren't settled by who knows best what's left in the bag though, nor does tile-counting allow you to influence what your next tile might be. Does this make it unfair? If so, then I'd argue that experience is unfair too since this can give you a significant advantage over an inexperienced player. Clearly this isn't the case though. Tile-counting is a skill that is learnt and practiced and perfected through hard work and dedication. These are qualities to be rewarded, not penalised. It isn't voodoo.

If I'm playing with friends, or my kids, or games that don't really matter then it isn't really competitive so I probably won't count the tiles unless someone happens to ask me if there are any tiles left that will complete their city.

On a final point, I think almost everyone who plays Carcassonne uses some knowledge of the tile distribution to their advantage after a few games. Even at its most basic level, most players realise after a few games that there is only one city-city-city-city tile, and only one road-road-road-road tile. If they can see that either/ both/ neither of these tiles have already been played out on the table in front of them then it is likely to affect their decision-making process. Equally, even if they're not counting them, most players know that the corner road tile is very common in Carcassonne and so might use this knowledge to their advantage even if they haven't actually counted how many have already been played, perhaps if they're wanting to join an extra meeple onto a farm.