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Carc Central Community => General => Topic started by: Whaleyland on October 31, 2014, 03:17:41 AM

Title: The Abbeys - Element of the Week #8
Post by: Whaleyland on October 31, 2014, 03:17:41 AM
ELEMENT OF THE WEEK: THE ABBEYS

Each week, a specific element from an expansion is chosen for deeper discussion. This is an opportunity for you, Carcassonne's biggest English-language fans, to discuss strategies and problems you have encountered through the years regarding specific expansion elements. All forms of critique – from the most joyous to the most scathing – are encouraged.

This week's element is THE ABBEYS (from Abbey & Mayor [Expansion #5]). This little trinket of an element is quite simply used: each player gets an Abbey tile and may choose to place it instead of a normal random tile. The Abbey must be placed in a spot that is surrounded orthogonally by other tiles, and a Follower can be placed on the tile as a Monk, treating the placed Abbey like a cloister. As a bonus, the Abbey ends all features touching it AND all those tiles count toward the cloister's total value, which means you've already got at least five points (and usually more)!

There are two main reasons people seem to use this expansion: strategic and aesthetic reasons. It can be quite useful in ending difficult to complete features such as cities, and can also be good in blocking opponents from merging cities and fields. And for many, the simple act of filling in a hole on the board is worth it enough because the board looks incomplete otherwise. In either case, discuss your relationship with The Abbeys, as well as your strategies for taking advantage of this element.

Next Week's Topic: The Builders  O0 C:-) 8) O:-)
Title: Re: The Abbeys - Element of the Week #8
Post by: jungleboy on October 31, 2014, 03:28:51 AM
I think at its heart the abbey is a wildcard that is used to complete your own features when MrNumbers/Jéré/danisthirty block you. But the more I play with this expansion (and it's an expansion that I like quite a lot), the more I think about different strategic uses for the abbey, so that's how I voted.

In the last game I played with it, my opponent and I were both invested in a large city, but all meeples were removed by the tower. There were only two possible spaces left for the expansion/reclaiming of the city, and both were blocked in on three sides and needed fairly rare tiles even with one side still free. I came up with a (possibly) brilliant plan that I then completely messed up upon execution. The plan was to surround one of the two possible expansion squares of the city, then play the abbey in the square. I would then place the wagon on the abbey to collect the nine points straight away and then immediately drive the wagon into the adjacent city to claim it.

The problem was that I got too far ahead of myself and played the abbey when only seven of the eight surrounding tiles were in place, meaning that my abbey cloister was not yet complete and I couldn't move the wagon into the city. As luck would have it, my opponent drew the required tile to claim the city via the other remaining square before I was able to complete the abbey cloister.

Anyway, I thought this was a good way to illustrate how the use of the abbey doesn't have to be only a defensive move to complete features and get meeples back. It can also be used strategically in certain situations as an 'offensive weapon'.
Title: Re: The Abbeys - Element of the Week #8
Post by: danisthirty on October 31, 2014, 04:57:54 AM
I find Abbeys very useful in a variety of situations. Holes in the landscape don't bother me at all so I'd never use one specifically to fill a hole but I do use them if I end up needing a rare, already played or non-existent tile to complete a feature (usually a city). I've used them on plenty of occasions to stop someone else from getting into my cities too. If my opponent has someone waiting in a city on an adjacent tile and they're waiting for a suitable tile to join them up, it's often possible to surround the adjoining tile and then place the Abbey where it would need to go to ensure that they stay out.

In the last game I played with it, my opponent and I were both invested in a large city, but all meeples were removed by the tower. There were only two possible spaces left for the expansion/reclaiming of the city, and both were blocked in on three sides and needed fairly rare tiles even with one side still free. I came up with a (possibly) brilliant plan that I then completely messed up upon execution. The plan was to surround one of the two possible expansion squares of the city, then play the abbey in the square. I would then place the wagon on the abbey to collect the nine points straight away and then immediately drive the wagon into the adjacent city to claim it.

That is the most cunning plan I've heard of since some guy dropped two meeples (one normal, one phantom) on adjacent (but separate) fields of the same tile, then used a bridge to join them both on to the main farm with his next tile.  8) (and still lost the farm)  >:(

Anyway, was I taking part in that game per chance? It sounds like an excellent strategy anyway, too bad it didn't work. I didn't know you could drive your wagon from an Abbey onto a connected feature as I always imagine the red lines surrounding Abbeys being uncrossable. But if that can be done then it's well worth knowing about!
Title: Re: The Abbeys - Element of the Week #8
Post by: Paul on October 31, 2014, 05:06:39 AM
The Abbey tile is one of those features in a Carcassonne game best suited for smaller games where you often end up needing a certain tile.
  In a larger game it might still be useful, if only playing with a heap of base games or using the less unique tile formations from an expansion.

In a megaCarc with various expansions, you rarely end up not getting that special tile, but still, it can happen. Thus I would wait using it until the very last few turns to exploit, usually, the Cloister feature of the Abbey tile.

Past few game setup, though, I mostly am focused on the carcArt after the game is finished. Thus I allowed several Abbey tiles per player during a game session.
 :meeple:
Title: Re: The Abbeys - Element of the Week #8
Post by: jungleboy on October 31, 2014, 07:51:31 AM
Anyway, was I taking part in that game per chance?

No, it was a real-life game.

It sounds like an excellent strategy anyway, too bad it didn't work. I didn't know you could drive your wagon from an Abbey onto a connected feature as I always imagine the red lines surrounding Abbeys being uncrossable. But if that can be done then it's well worth knowing about!

Well jeez, I didn't know we were bringing rules into it! Let me check.

Damn, it's an illegal move. From the CAR, page 76:

Quote
“Connected” means roads which lead to crossings and roads which head directly “into” a city or a cloister. Two cities never connect to each other (in the current land tiles). City walls that touch at a point (such as at the corner of tiles) are not considered connected, so the wagon cannot travel from one to the other. Thus, the wagon has to use the roads to move.

You guys are killing me today. My two best moves have been taken away from me!!
Title: Re: The Abbeys - Element of the Week #8
Post by: danisthirty on October 31, 2014, 07:56:51 AM
Well jeez, I didn't know we were bringing rules into it! Let me check.

Damn, it's an illegal move. From the CAR, page 76:

Our favourite moves independent of the rules could turn into a bit of a free-for-all! C:-)

You guys are killing me today. My two best moves have been taken away from me!!

I too am mourning the recently determined illegality of the "Phantom Princess Scew-over" (the name it officially has from now on in my head). Today is the saddest Halloween for a very long time...
Title: Re: The Abbeys - Element of the Week #8
Post by: Tacita on October 31, 2014, 08:38:14 AM
You guys are killing me today. My two best moves have been taken away from me!!
It appears the CAR is slightly inconsistent here.

"A wagon can be placed on an abbey. Additionally, the wagon can drive onto a directly connected city or road after scoring (and the other way round, from city/road to abbey), as long as the target feature has not yet been completed. " Page 76:238.

"The wagon can be moved from a city to a cloister that is within that city (or vice versa), as roads are not required for a 'connection,' just a shared wall/edge/surface." Page 76:239.
Title: Re: The Abbeys - Element of the Week #8
Post by: jungleboy on October 31, 2014, 08:45:25 AM
Oh wow, good find Tobias! Merit-worthy in fact.  :green-meeple: I had stopped reading at 'has to use roads'.

So I think it should read that a road is required for a connection except in the case of the abbey and a cloister within a city.
Title: Re: The Abbeys - Element of the Week #8
Post by: Whaleyland on October 31, 2014, 04:54:25 PM
I was the vote for completing opponent's features. I really hate people sneaking into my cities, so whenever I can, I'll use an Abbey to cut my losses and complete a city at the expense of another player tying with me. Sure I don't get as many points, but at least I get full points for the city I was working on. Aesthetics don't bother me either and it seems like such a waste to just use the tile to finish your own feature. It should be used aggressively, I feel. But perhaps that's my style. My second favorite expansion is Princess & Dragon, so there you go.
Title: Re: The Abbeys - Element of the Week #8
Post by: kettlefish on November 01, 2014, 01:16:48 AM
I often forget to use the Abbey tile or when I remember it, then someone else has already placed the tile into that whole where I like to place it...

In my games I was seldom lucky to place the Abbey tile to the right time for me to get the most "profit" of it.
Title: Re: The Abbeys - Element of the Week #8
Post by: jungleboy on November 01, 2014, 01:21:45 AM
I was the vote for completing opponent's features. I really hate people sneaking into my cities, so whenever I can, I'll use an Abbey to cut my losses and complete a city at the expense of another player tying with me. Sure I don't get as many points, but at least I get full points for the city I was working on.

I'm not sure I understand. Aren't you just completing your own city here and not an opponent's?
Title: Re: The Abbeys - Element of the Week #8
Post by: Whaleyland on November 01, 2014, 02:17:44 AM
I was the vote for completing opponent's features. I really hate people sneaking into my cities, so whenever I can, I'll use an Abbey to cut my losses and complete a city at the expense of another player tying with me. Sure I don't get as many points, but at least I get full points for the city I was working on.

I'm not sure I understand. Aren't you just completing your own city here and not an opponent's?
Well yes, technically, but I am completing it early to stop an opponent from trying to take it; and I am completing their feature too. That is as opposed to completing your own feature which has become stalled due to a lack of a tile (or unavailability of it).
Title: Re: The Abbeys - Element of the Week #8
Post by: jungleboy on November 01, 2014, 02:37:21 AM
OK, understood. The option in the poll makes it sound like you are just being nice and finishing someone's feature for them. But really you are trying to stop people glomming on to your city - using the abbey like a 2+ city segment tile - and if that happens to complete their feature in the process, then so be it.
Title: Re: The Abbeys - Element of the Week #8
Post by: Whaleyland on November 01, 2014, 03:22:11 AM
OK, understood. The option in the poll makes it sound like you are just being nice and finishing someone's feature for them. But really you are trying to stop people glomming on to your city - using the abbey like a 2+ city segment tile - and if that happens to complete their feature in the process, then so be it.
i
Precisely. Sometimes I don't think through the poll questions as well as I should, though this is the first where the majority voted for the "other" option.
Title: Re: The Abbeys - Element of the Week #8
Post by: jungleboy on November 01, 2014, 03:30:45 AM
The 'forgetting to place the abbey' option is an interesting one. Online play changes certain aspects of the game and this is one of them. With JCloisterZone, whenever you have an opportunity to place an abbey (i.e. whenever there is a tile surrounded by four tiles in the orthogonal directions), the first option presented to you when it's your turn is to play the abbey. So you can't really forget it. In fact, danisthirty gets so annoyed by the constant reminder about the abbey that I think he plays it the first chance he gets just to get rid of it!
Title: Re: The Abbeys - Element of the Week #8
Post by: quevy on November 01, 2014, 03:11:06 PM
is useful but not always possible, create a hole intentionally, near a farmer dangerous opponent and use the abbey to lock the field, I did this in my last game against my cousin.
Title: Re: The Abbeys - Element of the Week #8
Post by: Big Guy on November 11, 2014, 08:25:18 AM
I really like the Abbey. Sorry I missed the voting deadline. It's a 'get out of jail free' card for everyone, and it feels fair and balanced. It's saved me more times than I can count, and I love strategizing about the best time to use my Abbey. I can't stand using it early in the game, and around half the time, I save it until end-of-game and try to plan the end-game board so there are a few openings surrounded by 4 tiles, so I can pick which works best for me and worst for my opponents.

I'd like to respectfully disagree slightly with Quevy's point above.

With the exception of end-game, I think it's almost always possible to create holes in the game board surrounded by 4 tiles.
Title: Re: The Abbeys - Element of the Week #8
Post by: Carcking on November 18, 2014, 06:02:57 PM
Whenever possible I try to hold my Abbey until my opponent plays his/hers. It seems to give me a hand up - at least in perception - as I can then use it strategically to complete a key feature, or block a key farm or some such.

My Abbey in the match against MrNumbers turned out to be a key play - you might say the game winner. I got two of MrNumbers followers trapped - one on a cloister, one on a city with some trade goods that ownership of would determine the winner of the trade good war (can't quite remember but his Builder might have been in there too). I was able to create a block with a hole that could not be filled with the available tiles. Then bided my time till the very end. It was my second to last play as I did not want to play it early and give MrNumbers his followers back with any time to deply them. I played my Abbey tile and completed his city, but won the trade goods. That allowed me to tie him in Barrels and win Ribbon outright ( I already had the Wheat won). If MrNumbers had still had his Abbey it would not have been possible to develop this play.
Title: Re: The Abbeys - Element of the Week #8
Post by: jungleboy on November 18, 2014, 10:13:22 PM
Whenever possible I try to hold my Abbey until my opponent plays his/hers. It seems to give me a hand up - at least in perception - as I can then use it strategically to complete a key feature, or block a key farm or some such.

My Abbey in the match against MrNumbers turned out to be a key play - you might say the game winner. I got two of MrNumbers followers trapped - one on a cloister, one on a city with some trade goods that ownership of would determine the winner of the trade good war (can't quite remember but his Builder might have been in there too). I was able to create a block with a hole that could not be filled with the available tiles. Then bided my time till the very end. It was my second to last play as I did not want to play it early and give MrNumbers his followers back with any time to deply them. I played my Abbey tile and completed his city, but won the trade goods. That allowed me to tie him in Barrels and win Ribbon outright ( I already had the Wheat won). If MrNumbers had still had his Abbey it would not have been possible to develop this play.

That's a world champion move right there!  :(y)
Title: Re: The Abbeys - Element of the Week #8
Post by: Paul on November 19, 2014, 03:26:33 AM
Whenever possible I try to hold my Abbey until my opponent plays his/hers. It seems to give me a hand up - at least in perception - as I can then use it strategically to complete a key feature, or block a key farm or some such.

My Abbey in the match against MrNumbers turned out to be a key play - you might say the game winner. I got two of MrNumbers followers trapped - one on a cloister, one on a city with some trade goods that ownership of would determine the winner of the trade good war (can't quite remember but his Builder might have been in there too). I was able to create a block with a hole that could not be filled with the available tiles. Then bided my time till the very end. It was my second to last play as I did not want to play it early and give MrNumbers his followers back with any time to deply them. I played my Abbey tile and completed his city, but won the trade goods. That allowed me to tie him in Barrels and win Ribbon outright ( I already had the Wheat won). If MrNumbers had still had his Abbey it would not have been possible to develop this play.

That's a world champion move right there!  :(y)

This strategic move was shown on our last game session (posted on this forum). It can also do a premature block, by waving it in front of the player trying to lay a tile, forcing him to do another move.
  For me, in that last game session, well I was on the other end.  :@ Because opponents had their abbey I could not place a certain tile to join my two farmers taking over the huge farm field, for then he would place the abbey where I need to get a cloister placed (without roads) rendeing my followers almost completely useless!
Title: Re: The Abbeys - Element of the Week #8
Post by: Christopher on February 24, 2016, 01:14:52 AM
Abbeys are a nice addition, I think. As Big Guy said, it's a handy move to pull if you're stuck trying to complete a feature. I tend to save it for that purpose, as it's usually relatively easy to fill the other spaces then play the abbey to free your trapped follower. I would only use it to block someone else from joining a city if that city were particularly valuable.

If I haven't used it during the game, I'll throw it down as an incomplete cloister for five points as the tiles start to run out. I don't tend to play it just for the sake of playing it, though. Often I'll finish a game without having used the abbey. It's there for emergencies, as I see it!

Very often we'll give each play an abbey even if not playing with Abbeys and Mayors. Not sure how people see this, I suppose it could be considered not CAR acceptable, but we tend to view each feature as individual and use what we fancy. Same goes for builders, pigs, and shepherds, we'll often have those even if not using the tiles from the expansion they came from.
Title: Re: The Abbeys - Element of the Week #8
Post by: Hounk on February 24, 2016, 03:17:34 AM
I also think, the Abbey is a very versatile tile, and there is no "preferable" way to use it. In some games, when I run low on meeple, I try to use it to get one or preferable more back, in many I find it very useful for blocking knights (especially sneaky mayors in city segments without pennants) or farmers. Whenever there is no occasion, I find particular use for it, I try to preserve it for the end game as a "bonus turn" after last regular tile. But this is of course only reasonable, if I can be sure, I have a monk to deploy and there are enough holes left in the end, to be able to lay the abbey. It is sometimes also to take into account, if you have already placed your abbey, and the opponent not, to close a hole with a regular tile, just to deny the option to place the abbey. Or to place a tile in the endgame just to creating a new hole, if you need it for your own end-game-abbey.
Title: Re: The Abbeys - Element of the Week #8
Post by: Christopher on February 24, 2016, 04:19:08 AM
Whenever there is no occasion, I find particular use for it, I try to preserve it for the end game as a "bonus turn" after last regular tile.

We don't allow this when we play. We go very strict on the rules which (somewhere) state that the game ends when the last tile is drawn. Same goes for halflings and castles. Any tiles the players have left over are not allowed to be used, they are just discarded. I find this prevents players from holding on to their tiles in order to get a 'bonus go' at the end. Everyone gets the same number of tiles (excluding builder use, of course).
Title: Re: The Abbeys - Element of the Week #8
Post by: Hounk on February 24, 2016, 04:35:04 AM
The HiG rule states distinguishably, that Abbeys can be placed after last tile, while Halflings can't. With castles it is obvious, they can be placed, when completing a "football city" anyway, so are related to that moment of the game and can't be delayed in game anyway.

Of course, you can house rule it, like you want, but I see a purpose for the difference in the official rules: with your Abbey, you take a risk in delaying it till after last tile. Most of the time, it might happen, that all legal spots are filled up by other players. For a Halfling, you would always find a spot, so that's probably the purpose, they ruled that out.
Title: Re: The Abbeys - Element of the Week #8
Post by: MrNumbers on February 24, 2016, 04:50:39 AM
The HiG rule states distinguishably, that Abbeys can be placed after last tile, while Halflings can't.
Wanted to write the same. Quote from CAR 7.4, p.58:
Quote
If one or more players have not placed their Abbey when the last landscape tile is drawn and placed, they may still do so, in clockwise order starting from the left of the person who placed the last tile, as long as it is in accordance with the rules. The game is then over.
Title: Re: The Abbeys - Element of the Week #8
Post by: Christopher on February 24, 2016, 06:11:59 AM
The HiG rule states distinguishably, that Abbeys can be placed after last tile, while Halflings can't.
Wanted to write the same. Quote from CAR 7.4, p.58:
Quote
If one or more players have not placed their Abbey when the last landscape tile is drawn and placed, they may still do so, in clockwise order starting from the left of the person who placed the last tile, as long as it is in accordance with the rules. The game is then over.

Ooh, interesting! I didn't know that. It's been so long since I bothered to read the rules for simple expansions, most of the time I'm having to read up on complicated expansions! Thank you both!
Title: Re: The Abbeys - Element of the Week #8
Post by: danisthirty on February 25, 2016, 05:21:42 AM
Having an Abbey in hand feels like quite a big advantage (especially if my opponent has already placed theirs) so I try to keep mine back for as long as possible. If the perfect opportunity to use it arises then I’ll place it with no regrets, but more often than not I’ve still got mine after the last of the tiles from the bag have gone down. If this happens it’s important to make sure that there’s somewhere it can be placed, otherwise you’ll lose out on the few points that placing a final monk might get you (assuming you have a meeple in hand with which to claim them).

Although it changes depending on how many players are in a game, a big part of my strategy in head-to-head games is about making holes that can’t be filled in order to trap my opponent’s meeples. So, Abbeys can be really disruptive in that respect as they allow my opponent to easily undo all of my hard work and get their meeples back. If you want to make sure something remains incomplete, Abbeys mean you have to do so in two separate places! However, the fact that you need all 4 of the orthogonally adjacent tiles to be in place before an Abbey can be placed adds further interest as there are usually options to make life hard for your opponent just to get that fourth tile down before they’ve even made a possible location for their Abbey.

The same thing goes for if you’re trying to glom onto an opponent’s feature; if they start building around where you need to place the tile that merges your two features then they’re probably planning on using their Abbey to cut you out once all 4 tiles around the potential join have been filled. You can do your best to hinder them in this respect, but it’s always a race against time in terms of who draws what they need first!