Author Topic: Carcassonne: Expansion N°10 Under the Big Top / Manege frei  (Read 88616 times)

Offline Decar

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Re: Carcassonne: Expansion N°10 Under the Big Top / Manege frei
« Reply #30 on: December 21, 2016, 08:05:45 AM »
I agree with you mostly, but I think I need to help clarify:  I think HiG has made it's position and use of their artwork on fan expansions very clear.  What is currently not clear is how Carcassonne Central moderates these requirements and who is responsible when they are not obeyed.  That's not HiG's fault.

Offline danisthirty

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Re: Carcassonne: Expansion N°10 Under the Big Top / Manege frei
« Reply #31 on: December 21, 2016, 09:49:15 AM »
I have to agree with you What If? In my experience, Carcassonnes's owners – HiG – don't seem to have much of an interest in Carcassonne Central at all. Or if they do, they're certainly not showing it. They've had an account here since February 2013 but have only posted nine times since then and last logged in back in August (which is actually surprisingly recent – I was expecting it to be at least a year ago). It might be that they're better engaged with their fans through Carcassonne Forum (our German sister site) where there isn't the same kind of language barrier, but the fact that I have to have everything I read there translated through Google means I don't spend a lot of time there and can't really comment.

Don't get me wrong about any of this. I recognise that HiG are a business and that if they want to stay in business then they have to make money, which usually means targeting their stuff at whoever they can sell most of it to (i.e. not us since most of us already own pretty much everything). I also recognise that they know much more about running a business than I do and so don't feel especially outraged that they have made decisions which don't seem to benefit me or the majority of Carcassonne's hardcore fans (i.e. us). Am I annoyed by it? Yes, a bit. But I'd rather they made sufficient money to keep the game alive by reaching out to new players if the alternative is that they have to kill it off because it's not economically viable to keep it alive for a few hundred fans. If that happens, everyone loses...

However, not all publishers seem to operate in the same way and there are plenty of examples of other publishers (often smaller ones) being actively engaged with their fans in the same way as you describe band fan sites. I'd love it if HiG were as keen on us as the majority of us are on their games, but sadly I don't think this will ever be the case. There was a time back in 2013 when HiG gave a load of sets of the original Wind Roses tiles to kettlefish and she gave them away to members of CarcC for free. That was pretty cool, but there hasn't been anything similar since then and all other competitions, giveaways, meetups and other events have been organised and paid for by members of the community itself off their own backs.

Maybe I'm being naïve but I don't think it would take much for HiG to improve relations with their fans massively. Perhaps if they posted at CarcC once a month to give us the inside scoop on any upcoming releases or other news before it's widely known then we'd feel the love a bit more? But they won't because it's "secret" and they've even accused kettlefish of leaking such things in the past when in reality the majority of our news sources are often CarcF, BGG or obscure web shops making announcements before they're supposed to. I can't help but feel a little embarrassed when stuff like this goes down and casual Carcassonne players who refer to cities as "castles" start talking amongst themselves about expansions or spin-offs that I've never heard of. And I'm supposed to be an admin at one of their two officially-recognised fan sites!

If they provided us with some cool stuff to give away every now and again, held a quiz or competition a couple of times a year, or even just helped us to sort out some of our legal issues with fan-made expansions that are clearly causing us difficulties at the moment then we'd all feel a little less isolated and perhaps even more likely to support the new artwork edition of Carcassonne. I wouldn't hold your breath though.

Overall I'm more sad than angry as Klaus-Jürgen Wrede and Udo Schmitz (Carcassonne on Tour) are among the friendliest, most humble, generous and supportive people I've ever met, and there's so much potential for doing some truly great/ new/ innovative/ exciting things with Carcassonne as a game by arranging for the games creator, biggest advocates, loyal fans and – most importantly – its publishers to communicate openly and work together towards a common goal of bringing our favourite game to the unreached masses and having as much fun as possible along the way! It could be great, but with things the way they are very few of us know even what HiG's goals are for the next few months let alone the rest of 2017 or even 2018.

Offline kettlefish

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Re: Carcassonne: Expansion N°10 Under the Big Top / Manege frei
« Reply #32 on: December 21, 2016, 11:07:26 AM »
When an online shop gets from the publishers information about a new expansion - then some of the online shops put a space in there shop system even if the expansion will produce in some months. Some online shops put this "space" hidden for the public but some put it in the "open area" where all people can see it. That is a usual business here. One of the shops is "spiele-offensive" who put the inoformation in the "open area" - they do it since many years.

When I send mini-expansions like "the Windroses", "Castles in Germany", "Cloisters in Germany" also the "demo game CC II" and "Cathedrals of Germany" to the CarcC community - I've got this expansions from HiG through Udo Schmitz (Carcassonne-on-Tour) all for the CarcC. So please don't say the action with the "windroses" was the only action.

When an author of a fan-expansion for Carcassonne use graphic elements from elsewhere of the internet and he don't ask the owner of this graphic if he is allowed to use it for a part of the landscape tile and to show it online at an other homepage than that from where he/she get this grapics.
The best way is when the author create an own graphic element which he likes to use for the fan-expansion. If he can't paint such element, than he can ask the CarcC or CarcF community for help.

HiG is the publisher of the Carcassonne games (and the Carcassonne spin-off games) - they own the graphic - they allowed us to use such graphics to create fan-expansions.






« Last Edit: December 21, 2016, 11:18:51 AM by kettlefish »

Offline danisthirty

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Re: Carcassonne: Expansion N°10 Under the Big Top / Manege frei
« Reply #33 on: December 21, 2016, 12:24:40 PM »
When an online shop gets from the publishers information about a new expansion - then some of the online shops put a space in there shop system even if the expansion will produce in some months. Some online shops put this "space" hidden for the public but some put it in the "open area" where all people can see it. That is a usual business here. One of the shops is "spiele-offensive" who put the inoformation in the "open area" - they do it since many years.

I know this. What I don't know is why it is OK for them to do this while there are people on these forums (well, you) who know the details but aren't allowed to share them even though they're already being shared elsewhere?

When I send mini-expansions like "the Windroses", "Castles in Germany", "Cloisters in Germany" also the "demo game CC II" and "Cathedrals of Germany" to the CarcC community - I've got this expansions from HiG through Udo Schmitz (Carcassonne-on-Tour) all for the CarcC. So please don't say the action with the "windroses" was the only action.

Wind Roses. Where are the posts for the other giveaways?

I hope I don't seem ungrateful as I'm aware that you've sent me stuff to give away as prizes in some of the online competitions I've organised in the past. But there were very few of these compared to the Wind Roses and I've spent well over £100 on postage since then to get them to peoples doorsteps, rather than with the Wind Roses where HiG paid for everything.

When an author of a fan-expansion for Carcassonne use graphic elements from elsewhere of the internet and he don't ask the owner of this graphic if he is allowed to use it for a part of the landscape tile and to show it online at an other homepage than that from where he/she get this grapics.
The best way is when the author create an own graphic element which he likes to use for the fan-expansion. If he can't paint such element, than he can ask the CarcC or CarcF community for help.

I know this too. But repeating it over and over isn't helping us to get any closer to a solution.

HiG is the publisher of the Carcassonne games (and the Carcassonne spin-off games) - they own the graphic - they allowed us to use such graphics to create fan-expansions.

Yes. Known. Thanks for the reminder.

Offline kettlefish

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Re: Carcassonne: Expansion N°10 Under the Big Top / Manege frei
« Reply #34 on: December 21, 2016, 01:00:55 PM »
When an online shop gets from the publishers information about a new expansion - then some of the online shops put a space in there shop system even if the expansion will produce in some months. Some online shops put this "space" hidden for the public but some put it in the "open area" where all people can see it. That is a usual business here. One of the shops is "spiele-offensive" who put the inoformation in the "open area" - they do it since many years.

I know this. What I don't know is why it is OK for them to do this while there are people on these forums (well, you) who know the details but aren't allowed to share them even though they're already being shared elsewhere?
For this 10th expansion - I only know it has some landscape tiles and there will be a new figure in it. I didn't play this expansion yet. So I am not able to say anything about it. And for the spin-off games or mini-expansion which I do the correction reading - I've promissed HiG not to say earlier the community. HiG likes to surprise the fans.
When I send mini-expansions like "the Windroses", "Castles in Germany", "Cloisters in Germany" also the "demo game CC II" and "Cathedrals of Germany" to the CarcC community - I've got this expansions from HiG through Udo Schmitz (Carcassonne-on-Tour) all for the CarcC. So please don't say the action with the "windroses" was the only action.

Wind Roses. Where are the posts for the other giveaways?

I hope I don't seem ungrateful as I'm aware that you've sent me stuff to give away as prizes in some of the online competitions I've organised in the past. But there were very few of these compared to the Wind Roses and I've spent well over £100 on postage since then to get them to peoples doorsteps, rather than with the Wind Roses where HiG paid for everything.
I've done it - see the hidden forums for the authors - I hoped to get them back to activity - and I felt into a hole. I decided not to make to much energy in this anymore.
With the payment of postage - ask HiG if they are willing to pay for it.

Offline SRBO

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Re: Carcassonne: Expansion N°10 Under the Big Top / Manege frei
« Reply #35 on: December 21, 2016, 01:53:58 PM »
I have to agree with you What If? In my experience, Carcassonnes's owners – HiG – don't seem to have much of an interest in Carcassonne Central at all. Or if they do, they're certainly not showing it. They've had an account here since February 2013 but have only posted nine times since then and last logged in back in August (which is actually surprisingly recent – I was expecting it to be at least a year ago). It might be that they're better engaged with their fans through Carcassonne Forum (our German sister site) where there isn't the same kind of language barrier, but the fact that I have to have everything I read there translated through Google means I don't spend a lot of time there and can't really comment.


I Always hated the fact that there where 2 big fora, I never made an account on the other one.
Mostly there are the same posts on both sites anyway. As this is an international forum, this would be the best place for them to get feedback or engage with their fans.


Don't get me wrong about any of this. I recognise that HiG are a business and that if they want to stay in business then they have to make money, which usually means targeting their stuff at whoever they can sell most of it to (i.e. not us since most of us already own pretty much everything). I also recognise that they know much more about running a business than I do and so don't feel especially outraged that they have made decisions which don't seem to benefit me or the majority of Carcassonne's hardcore fans (i.e. us). Am I annoyed by it? Yes, a bit. But I'd rather they made sufficient money to keep the game alive by reaching out to new players if the alternative is that they have to kill it off because it's not economically viable to keep it alive for a few hundred fans. If that happens, everyone loses...

You can aim for new players.. But eventually that group is gone. I think that their strategy is very bad. You always have to aim for the "hardcore" fans as a priority. They know your game and keep making it better. If you don't listen to this fanbase, you lose people who are interested. Look at this forum. There were very few posts and online members some time ago. Simply because the fanbase was getting smaller with the latest decisions.. So i definitely agree with your opinion.

What i don't understand is their decision to create 9 (5 so far) expansions in the new look, that are already released in the old version. Is it just me or is that an incredible waste of resources and money?

...


To stay on-Topic,
I'm sad, that this will be a Carc 2.0 expansion, but on the other side, it was to be expected. (I hoped for the 10th expansion to be the last one in the old style)
I'm also curious about the little chips and what kind of effect this will have on the game.

Offline stalcupojoy

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Re: Carcassonne: Expansion N°10 Under the Big Top / Manege frei
« Reply #36 on: December 21, 2016, 06:51:07 PM »
But FYI, Catapult is Expansion 7.
:)) Oops. Don't know what I was thinking. Edited.

I have dishonored The Tower.  :P

The next time you play with The Tower you must start with one tower foundation less than your opponents. Only then can balance be restored to the Carcassonne universe after this grave insult...

I have never played The Tower, I don't own it, and the closest Carcassonne fan I know of in Thailand (AlbinoAsian) lives 3.5 hours away. So I'm afraid the Carcassonne universe is doomed, at least for a while. Sorry all. ^-^

What do you add if you don't want any fun? ;)
Darmstadt mixed with v2.0.  >:D

Thanks for a good chuckle (and perhaps a slight shudder). :P
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Offline ARabidMeerkat

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Re: Carcassonne: Expansion N°10 Under the Big Top / Manege frei
« Reply #37 on: December 24, 2016, 11:50:36 AM »
So, guessing by the news, I should invest in Carc 2 and another Basically Wooden box? I may have to consult my 'boss'!
If only I had another Halfling.....

Offline Hounk

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Re: Carcassonne: Expansion N°10 Under the Big Top / Manege frei
« Reply #38 on: December 25, 2016, 02:12:14 AM »
Have to wait for the rules, but I think, this will be a pass for me. I don't have a a 100% Carc I collection, missing Catapult and a few small expansions, which were either to expensive or not interesting for me. To get a Carc II expansion, the rules must be really mind blowing, as I already got a great variety of expansions to play this game till the end of my live, and this likely will never happen. "Hills & Sheep" is a fun expansion, I really enjoy it, yet, I doubt, I would have bought it, if it would have been Carc II exclusive. Plus the Circus theme does not really appeal to me anyway, if connected with Carcassonne.

Offline DrMeeple

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Re: Carcassonne: Expansion N°10 Under the Big Top / Manege frei
« Reply #39 on: December 27, 2016, 10:59:08 AM »
Maybe old edition of carcassonne will be replaced by the new edition¿¿?? And the new expansions only will be for the new edition??... :o
I mix expansions at my own risk.

Offline jungleboy

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Re: Carcassonne: Expansion N°10 Under the Big Top / Manege frei
« Reply #40 on: December 27, 2016, 11:01:04 AM »
Maybe old edition of carcassonne will be replaced by the new edition¿¿?? And the new expansions only will be for the new edition??... :o

Yes, that is our expectation. It took a couple of years for the new edition to be fully entrenched (with mini expansions still appearing in the old edition), but I think we should not expect any more expansions in the old art from now on.

Offline kettlefish

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Re: Carcassonne: Expansion N°10 Under the Big Top / Manege frei
« Reply #41 on: December 29, 2016, 02:52:29 PM »
PresetM visited Udo Schmitz and played the prototype of the 10th expansion.
He was allowed to post some more informations about this expansion.

At CarcF he has posted about it.
Please ask members like Safari if he can translate it into English.
Here is the link to the posting from PresetM:
http://www.carcassonne-forum.de/viewtopic.php?f=155&t=3594&start=15#p45704

Offline Whaleyland

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Re: Carcassonne: Expansion N°10 Under the Big Top / Manege frei
« Reply #42 on: December 29, 2016, 06:30:43 PM »
Quick highlight reel based on a Google Translation:

Components
• 20 tiles
• 10 numbered chits
• 6 Ringmaster wooden figures (one in each player colour) [same figures as the explorers in Mayflower/New World]
• 1 Circus Tent wooden figure [same figure as the tent in Hunters & Gatherers – painted in unspecified stripes]

Rules Highlights
Three different expansion elements that can be used together or separately:

Ringmaster
Ringmasters give players bonus points since they create order from the chaos of the circus.

Meeple Pyramids
Meeples can be placed as Artists on the new landscape feature by placing them on the outlined spots. Three can be stacked to form a pyramid, at which point the participants score bonus points.

Circus Tent
The Circus Tent attracts inhabitants from Carcassonne and creatively gives points based on some unstated mechanic related to this principle.

The expansion will release in Germany in April 2017, in time for Easter.

Final notes:
• The number distribution on the chits are still not decided, and it is unstated what element of the expansion they relate to.
• The expansion will use 2nd edition art by Anne Pätzke, although she has not finished the artwork quite yet
• The 10th expansion is a feast for strategists since it requires strategy to obtain the maximum bonus points.
• PresetM thinks this will become one of the best expansions.

Offline stalcupojoy

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Re: Carcassonne: Expansion N°10 Under the Big Top / Manege frei
« Reply #43 on: December 29, 2016, 11:45:42 PM »
I must say, the third page of the aforementioned topic is quite sad. In short, it seems that HiG is leaning towards (or has already declared?) banning the creation of original-art (Carc I) version of its Carc II-only expansions (e.g. Gardens, the Watchtowers, and this upcoming 10th expansion). German speakers, am I understanding PresetM's post right?

I have posted my thoughts in full in the CarcF thread, but suffice it to say: this news dampens my excitement for the future of Carcassonne considerably. It has always been the community's creativity around Carcassonne that has excited me even more than the game itself, and I hope that HiG will reconsider its stance on this issue (if this is indeed their stance). And surely, some of us old-art-only people would make our own home-brewed versions of the expansions for private use anyway, but that sure kills the collaborative aspect and community excitement of things that HiG could foster with a more lenient stance.

(Some of you know that the tile-laying game Santorini has recently drawn my attention, and that of at least a couple other CarcC friends here. I cannot help but think of how Roxley Games, on their lively Kickstarter, invited people to submit photos of their home-brewed versions of its game, confident that this would build excitement for their product, not detract from it. I think their approach was smart.)
« Last Edit: December 30, 2016, 12:04:09 AM by stalcupojoy »

Offline Decar

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Re: Carcassonne: Expansion N°10 Under the Big Top / Manege frei
« Reply #44 on: December 30, 2016, 03:44:17 AM »
I'm not sure what happened to your post after it went through Google Translate, but it reminds me of a certain Far-Side comic:





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