Author Topic: CAR for Carcassonne v2  (Read 25685 times)

Offline kettlefish

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Re: CAR for Carcassonne v2
« Reply #45 on: May 10, 2017, 02:29:22 AM »
The CAR for the New Edition needs a different structure than the CAR for the classical edition. In many of the expansions we have the "clarification for the game play with other expansions" - that was in the classical edition not included. That means it was only the FAQ in the CAR - the footnotes. Now we have many of the footnotes of the CAR from the classical edition as official rules for the New Edition.

For the New Edition:
There are many of the footnotes from the CAR for the classical edition which aren`t needed for the CAR in the New Edition.
Examples:
the farmer rules
the builder and pig = they are not "followers"
and all the footnotes which are now a part of the official rules.

This year I have some more work to do for HiG - Correction reading for the New Edition: the 8th and 9th expansion and the BigBox - when that all is finished, then I will have more time for the help for the CAR.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2017, 02:37:40 AM by kettlefish »

Offline Jéré

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Re: CAR for Carcassonne v2
« Reply #46 on: May 10, 2017, 06:06:18 AM »
Looks like we have found the perfect person to at least finish the CAR v1  :(y)  I vouch for you Just a Bill.

I totally agree that we need separate docs. First priority should be to finish v1. Then, if our brave candidate is keen to pursue the completion of the v2 as well, I'd be curious how it will evolve but it's not going to convince me to buy it!  ;D I'm also a dinosaur purist.

Offline Decar

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Re: CAR for Carcassonne v2
« Reply #47 on: May 10, 2017, 02:39:00 PM »
I definitely agree that the first printing expansions should be finished off before deciding what to do with the new artwork.

I'm not convinced that separate documents should exist, firstly due to the large amount of duplication.  I'm not sure it could be called the Complete Annotated Rules, if they are separated.  To me it would feel more like PAR (Partial) than CAR.  Hans im Glueck have said that the tiles and editions are compatible with one another and there is no reason to separate them.  I think it would also be a great shame to not consider how some of the smaller expansions, which are likely to never be reprinted would operate with newer expansions like 'Under The Big Top' for example.  Regarding the 'optional' farmer rules - The Barn's interaction with farmers was not considered an optional rule - Barns still 'Trigger a Score' and score 3 points like they always did.

The spiel 'XX tiles and some components would need to be removed from the existing document and the Labyrinth tiles were completed by two different artists, the expansion was not released as 'one tile for each version'.

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Offline Just a Bill

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Re: CAR for Carcassonne v2
« Reply #48 on: May 10, 2017, 05:16:12 PM »
I'm not sure it could be called the Complete Annotated Rules, if they are separated.  To me it would feel more like PAR (Partial) than CAR.

"Complete" has more than one context. I would offer the following simple definitions:
  • A v1 CAR is complete if it covers everything that exists for v1.
  • A v2 CAR is complete if it covers everything that exists for v2.
  • A v1+v2 CAR is complete if it covers everything that exists for both v1 and v2 combined.
I don't know that we need all three of those documents, but I'm certain we're going to end up with at least two of them (the first of which will be the "finished" v1). Then we will have to debate whether the Next Great Document will be the v2 or the v1+v2. The v1+v2 will certainly be the most cumbersome and unwieldly of all, because it will have to have everything for both versions plus all the overhead of dealing with all the differences in terminology, rules, presentation....

Hans im Glueck have said that the tiles and editions are compatible with one another and there is no reason to separate them.

Of course, HiG is going to want to eat their cake and have it too. On the one hand they need to say that all the tiles work together in one big system, to help them finish selling off all the v1 inventory and to convert as many existing players into v2 land as possible. On the other hand, they are going to want to keep developing new content without being constrained by any v1 material that they don't plan to convert to v2. Thus, the "one big happy game" concept is both true and untrue at the same time, depending on one's needs and preferences ... and over time it only has the potential to become less true, not more true. (I have no doubt that future v2 expansions will increasingly make certain v1 expansions incompatible, or at least awkward and messy, when used together. I've watched it happen in virtually every game/fandom I know of that underwent an implementation "reboot," including those of the publisher I worked for.)

Thus, maintaining the concept of "v1+v2 complete" is going to require increasing effort from the player community. And, as the number of v2 expansions reaches (and passes) critical mass, the incentive to mix the two styles probably begins to diminish, because there won't be all that much in v1 that hasn't been converted or superseded by new v2 sets. Everything that players really care about will get either converted, or replaced with an equivalency. (Over time, most everyone stopped caring about VCRs because they had repurchased most of the movies they cared about on DVD; and in the not-too-distant future, DVD players too will go away because the bulk of our collections will be on Blu-Ray.) It's not unreasonable to observe that many of the players who would initially be very interested in a combined CAR would be the same players that will eventually re-buy everything available in the new art style, yes?

Regardless, the CAR is not HiG's document, it's the player community's document. Historically it has been the result of many decisions that HiG probably would not make, such as lists of house rules, commentary on certain failures of official rules documents, history of HiG/RGG/ZMG conflicts and differences, etc. So if the players want separate documents, or a combined document, or both, there's no reason the players can't produce the document(s) they want/need.

I think it would also be a great shame to not consider how some of the smaller expansions, which are likely to never be reprinted would operate with newer expansions like 'Under The Big Top' for example.

This of course cannot be sourced from HiG, and thus adds a whole new layer of "player community consensus" process to determine what those rules should be. (That's one of the reasons I offered for discussion the concept of some kind of conversion/compatibility guide.) This will be a significantly non-trivial effort, which will get re-opened whenever there's a new expansion set.

But I'm probably getting the cart before the horse here, since the first thing that needs to happen is catching up the missing content for the v1 CAR, and that's going to be no small feat!

and the Labyrinth tiles were completed by two different artists, the expansion was not released as 'one tile for each version'.

Maybe I'm not following you here, because it seems to me that's exactly how it was released. The description for the Spiel Doch! magazine says "Including there is the mini-expansion 'Labyrinth' to Carcassonne. One tile in the classic stile and one tile in the new stile of Carcassonne."
« Last Edit: May 10, 2017, 05:33:32 PM by Just a Bill »
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Offline aenima

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Re: CAR for Carcassonne v2
« Reply #49 on: May 10, 2017, 11:29:02 PM »
I agree with Decar... we  need a CAR with both edition... anyway, if the community wonts one CAR with only the classic edition you can do it, but it must be in addiction to the complete one (and a CAR with only the second edition is a "nonsense" for me).


Offline Decar

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Re: CAR for Carcassonne v2
« Reply #50 on: May 10, 2017, 11:46:48 PM »
Thanks for the response Bill,

I agree that HiG can't have it's cake and eat it.  I think it's our duty to continue to ask questions of them.  They will either answer the questions or decide that v2 is a reboot as you say.  If it is a reboot BGG will need to separate out the new edition content from the old edition; at that point they will not be compatible. 

Do not underestimate the CAR, it has been referenced by HiG in the past and even they look to it for guidance on issues.

Offline jungleboy

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Re: CAR for Carcassonne v2
« Reply #51 on: May 11, 2017, 12:47:04 AM »
Well said Bill, I agree with a lot of what you wrote.

If it is a reboot BGG will need to separate out the new edition content from the old edition; at that point they will not be compatible. 

I don't think closure on the issue of compatibility rests with BGG. Actually, I don't think there will ever be real closure on it and instead the answer to the question of compatibility rests in the mind of the individual fan. Some fans will play both versions together and others won't. If you feel strongly either way, you aren't going to change your mind just because HiG or BGG or anyone else says they're compatible or not.

Offline Paul

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Re: CAR for Carcassonne v2
« Reply #52 on: May 11, 2017, 01:33:58 AM »
I'd love to see an app version. A huge task but worth it in the end.

Not only will it accommodate both versions but it can also filter out.

Other feature that will help:

1. Filter out expansions when playing a game. Only list those expansions, or part of an expansions, used when playing to instantly find the rules.
2. Search functions like typing in "pig" and "barn" will list how these correlate to one another.
3. Flexible turn summary. Show only the mechanics used in this particular games in the correct order.

The app will not be used to constantly look at it during the game, merely as a help when conflict occurs, to keep from spoilers and the fun. Of course, if people want to, they could.

There are many more features that could be add and all those foot notes, instead of them existing in one place, they can be linked to several mechanics.
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Offline kettlefish

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Re: CAR for Carcassonne v2
« Reply #53 on: May 11, 2017, 02:17:10 AM »
I'd love to see an app version. A huge task but worth it in the end.

Not only will it accommodate both versions but it can also filter out.

Other feature that will help:

1. Filter out expansions when playing a game. Only list those expansions, or part of an expansions, used when playing to instantly find the rules.
2. Search functions like typing in "pig" and "barn" will list how these correlate to one another.
3. Flexible turn summary. Show only the mechanics used in this particular games in the correct order.

The app will not be used to constantly look at it during the game, merely as a help when conflict occurs, to keep from spoilers and the fun. Of course, if people want to, they could.

There are many more features that could be add and all those foot notes, instead of them existing in one place, they can be linked to several mechanics.
I am creating an excel x-rule table at the moment, but it is in German.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2017, 02:28:29 AM by kettlefish »

Offline flipshot

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Re: CAR for Carcassonne v2
« Reply #54 on: May 11, 2017, 10:16:09 AM »
The main question that needs to be answered is if users of version 1.0 will adopt any and all rule revisions/changes from the 2.0 re-release. If so, then one CAR document will suffice. If there will be a diversion of rules from v 1.0 to v 2.0, then having 2 CAR documents makes more sense. Case in point, the new wagon rules. If there will be 2 CARs, then v 1.0 should keep the old rule, and v 2.0 should have the new. If the new wagon rule will be universally accepted by all carc players, then 1 CAR will do the job. It makes no difference to me which way we go, but I will always adopt the most recent rules as proper way to play.

Offline Whaleyland

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Re: CAR for Carcassonne v2
« Reply #55 on: May 11, 2017, 03:16:42 PM »
It makes no difference to me which way we go, but I will always adopt the most recent rules as proper way to play.
I too will usually play with the most recent rules, so on this point I agree that a single document may suffice. That being said, I think an update to the current CAR (without any New Art material) should be done first and made permanently available as a separate document. I think this is universally agreed, so there really is no issue over whether or not CAR 7.5 needs to be done first.

The issue is simply over whether the CAR for the new rules should include the old information or be new-information-only. Because of all the crap and confusion caused by Hans im Glück, CundCo, Spielbox, and Rio Grande over the years, I think it just makes more sense to release a new-rules-only document. We are never going to get a rules clarification for how The Tunnels interacts with the Watchtowers, or how The Cathars or Plague works with the Ringmaster (or whatever). Hans im Glück never really considered those Spielbox expansions official to begin with, but now they have completely given up trying to reconcile them with the game. Then there are expansions like Cult, Siege & Creativity which will never be re-released because they don't have to be. I feel the old document should deal with these issues and the new document can, at least hypothetically, be much cleaner and streamlined to deal with the new material exclusively. When I play the game, I can choose to either play old Wagon or new Wagon rules, with the understanding that the new Wagon rules are not the original rules. But new audiences don't need to know that. People playing their Abbey & Mayor 2.0 should not have to worry about the original rules when those rules are no longer valid.

One of the larger issues really seems to be terminology, and I, for one, do not like changing Followers to Meeples or Cloisters to Monasteries. I am not sure how to reconcile changes such as these in a combined document and I think it suggests that such a document should not be made.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2017, 03:19:17 PM by whaleyland »

Offline danisthirty

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Re: CAR for Carcassonne v2
« Reply #56 on: May 12, 2017, 01:17:27 AM »
If the purpose of the CAR is to explain all rules and to describe how these rules can be applied to resolve difficulties caused by the interactions between various expansions then surely one of the goals of the document is that it must be clear and easy to read/ understand. Perhaps I’m in the minority here, but I just can’t see the point of maintaining a single document if it’s going to be so over-complicated by various subtle rule changes introduced by various publishers over the years, and now the difference between artwork versions too! I have absolute confidence in Just a Bill’s abilities as a technical author, but I can’t imagine any kind of “complete” document that could cover both versions without being a mess of clauses and if, buts and maybes for 50% of the rules. Despite being complete in its official sense, there would be so much unnecessary bloat that I can’t see it actually being a lot of help to anyone...

Also, let’s think about who the target audience is going to be. Most of the fans of the old artwork are allergic to the new artwork and won’t go anywhere near it in case they explode. Remember when jungleboy was hospitalised after accidentally picking up one of the new edition boxes shortly after they first came out? Fortunately it was still in shrink-wrap otherwise it could have been much worse. All they want is a version of the CAR which is complete in terms of old artwork. Newer fans of the game don’t care what expansions existed purely in the old artwork as it doesn’t match their version of the base game. I might be generalising slightly here, but since we’re never going to get any official rulings from HiG over interactions between old artwork exclusive expansions and new artwork exclusive expansions is there any point trying to cover them? Anything that turns out not to be an old artwork exclusive (i.e. it gets released in the new artwork) will be covered in the new CAR anyway, probably with entirely new rules that don’t match the old rules.

I think we need to admit that enough is enough with the traditional CAR and accept, as HiG appears to have done, that the original artwork version of the game which so many of us know and love, really is a mess of rules. If we have an opportunity to leave that behind and start again then we should be embracing it. In my opinion, attempting to take all of that baggage with us as we move forward is dooming ourselves to failure before we’ve even begun. :(

Offline aenima

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Re: CAR for Carcassonne v2
« Reply #57 on: May 12, 2017, 01:20:28 AM »
It makes no difference to me which way we go, but I will always adopt the most recent rules as proper way to play.
I too will usually play with the most recent rules, so on this point I agree that a single document may suffice. That being said, I think an update to the current CAR (without any New Art material) should be done first and made permanently available as a separate document. I think this is universally agreed, so there really is no issue over whether or not CAR 7.5 needs to be done first.

one day,when I didn't know how to update the Italian CAR about abbeys and mayors, a wise person named Decar sayd me...
"I think you have a responsibility to share the latest rules from Hans Im Gluck and then discuss the  changes, just like the original, revised and re-revised farming rules."
So, I did so, it works and I think it's important to give the opportunity to all the fan (no matter from the classic or new edition) to know the differences and to can choose the rules they want...

anyway... has noone ever noticed that we can play "The phantoms", "little buildings" and "The messenger" from the classic edition with the new edition without graphic problem?
and then... some people (like if I remember well msnumers) play Watchtowers with the classic edition without any problem?
...

Like I sayd before, it's ok to "close" the classic CAR with a 7.5 verison with (why not) only the classic edition and give space to a new CAR with both... we can't separate the new one from the old one...

anyway it's always my opinion...  :o

Offline ny1050220

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Re: CAR for Carcassonne v2
« Reply #58 on: May 12, 2017, 06:36:43 AM »
Perhaps I’m in the minority here, but I just can’t see the point of maintaining a single document if it’s going to be so over-complicated by various subtle rule changes introduced by various publishers over the years, and now the difference between artwork versions too!
I don't know you are the minority, but you're surely not the only one.

Also, I feel we are making this issue overly complicated not for a good reason. Why don't we produce two separate files for v1 and v2, as at least some of us agree on that and object to a 'complete' document with both versions. And those who insist on the "one document for all" policy can then build the file based on the two. Of course, this means that they'll have to deal with the terminology, different rules, graphical examples, etc., but it's at least easier (I know, still not easy) at that time. Sounds reasonable?

Offline jungleboy

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Re: CAR for Carcassonne v2
« Reply #59 on: May 12, 2017, 07:01:34 AM »
Most of the fans of the old artwork are allergic to the new artwork and won’t go anywhere near it in case they explode. Remember when jungleboy was hospitalised after accidentally picking up one of the new edition boxes shortly after they first came out? Fortunately it was still in shrink-wrap otherwise it could have been much worse.

 :(y) :(y)

I fear that some of those rashes will never go away.


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