Carcassonne Central
Carc Central Community => Online Games and Competitions => Leagues (including expansion leagues) => Topic started by: MrNumbers on April 26, 2017, 01:32:10 PM
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Bridges, Castles and Bazaars League is over, and the question is very simple: what's next? :)
Our online competitions are the big part of Carcassonne Central and I can't imagine it without them anymore :D So we have to move on and play more C:-) Now about options.
Option 1: Count, King, and Robber
Under this option I mean a compilation of expansions, which where published as the big 6th expansion. This compilation includes 4 expansions: King and Robber Baron, The Count of Carcassonne, The River II and Heretics & Shrines. All of them exists in JCloisterZone, with one detail: The Count of Carcassonne is implemented only with tiles, not the actual rules. But this is what we have. This compilation gives us 23 additional tiles (including River II tiles) plus The City of Carcassonne (12 tiles), but minus starting tile from the Base game.
Option 2: Carcassonne Minis
Here I mean a compilation of expansions, known as "Carcassonne Minis". In ideal situation it would be good to play with all 7, but in JCZ we have only 4: The Flier (Mini 1), The Goldmines (Mini 4), Mage and Witch (Mini 5) and Crop Circles II (Mini 7). It makes it 30 additional tiles, which is exactly the same as Princess & Dragon expansion has.
Option 3: Go back through all major expansions starting with Inns & Cathedrals
Pretty obvious option, my least favorite. I love Carcassonne for it's wide variety of expansions, and there are many un-played expansions left (in terms of the leagues).
Option 4: Something else (please post below)
Maybe you have some different combination of expansions in mind? Or completely other idea? Please, share!
ADDED:
Option 5: Single expansion from Carcassonne Minis
Also added this option, as some people would vote for it.
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I vote to keep following the "official" order of expansion release.
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I would favour an "Expansion 6 sans Count" League (imho we could skip the tiles, with the rules not implemented) or a single-mini League. Imho not all minis are working particular well together, and The Crop Circles are implemented right now in a way, which is not really perfect for a League. Additionally I think, it could be potentially interesting to discover the minis one by one on their own with the base game.
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I'm not a huge fan of Count, King & Robber but it seems like the next logical step if we are to follow all of the large expansions. And probably the last one too, so it would be a shame to miss it.
I'm sure there will be another vote for the next one after this, but I think rather than combining all of the minis at once it might be better to include one + something else per league. So there would be a bit of mixing, but at least we could choose which minis to add for each league rather than putting the 4 that are currently implemented in JCZ together for the sake of it.
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I have added Option 5, as some of you could potentially vote for it. For example, I reread previous such poll's posts, and Jéré had this option in favor.
BTW, another interesting fact. Here is what Danisthirty wrote about BC&B League possibility:
In my opinion, B, C & B can add a lot of interest to games that already include a decent handful of expansions, but it doesn't stand up well as a solo expansion, and wouldn't make for an interesting league. Naturally I'd still want to take part in it if everyone else voted for it of course, but I can't say it's something I'd be especially excited about if this was the case.
And what does he think after actually winning that League? ;) :D
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My favourite would be Carcassonne Minis, all those available, so I vote for it. Single Minis seem to add to few tiles.
The official expansion 6 is nonetheless a good choice, although I don't personally like the official Count rules. After all, the rule is not in JCZ yet, so I think whether to include just the tiles is trivial. Sidetrack a bit, I usually include Catapult in JCZ, as the tiles are great!
Or, a couple of minis expansions are mixed, from the set of #1, 4, 5, and 7, river I and/or II, cathar and/or besiegers, GQ11, cult, tunnel, corn circles, festival, wind rose, and German monasteries.
After all possibilities, when we go back to Inns and Cathedrals, we might consider adding just the phantom.
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BTW, another interesting fact. Here is what Danisthirty wrote about BC&B League possibility:
In my opinion, B, C & B can add a lot of interest to games that already include a decent handful of expansions, but it doesn't stand up well as a solo expansion, and wouldn't make for an interesting league. Naturally I'd still want to take part in it if everyone else voted for it of course, but I can't say it's something I'd be especially excited about if this was the case.
And what does he think after actually winning that League? ;) :D
I already said it here: ;)
I must say I'm surprised to have won; I was in two minds as to whether or not I'd actually take part when this was announced as I've never been a huge fan of it.
The games were more interesting than I'd been expecting, but in some games the features of this expansion were hardly used at all. The bazaars added quite a lot rather than merely breaking the flow of the games, and in several games I was surprised at just how cheaply I was able to "buy" certain tiles.
Overall I learnt a lot and had a lot of fun. Who could ask for more?
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I'm voting for option 1 (Count, King, and Robber) but option 3 (Inns & Cathedrals) would be my second preference choice.
Option 1 because of the continuity of stepping through the expansions and learning them one by one. Option 3 would be fun for those of us who joined the forum since the expansion leagues began.
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I also picked Count, King and Robber. It just seems like we should do the best we can with what's available on JCZ with this expansion to complete the boxed expansions that are on JCZ.
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I would go for Count, King and Robber as well. Lots of things going on in this expansion so i'm curious how it would work in a 2-player-game. I must admit it's not one of my favourite expansions and that has a lot to do with the Count of Carcassonne...but that isn't included in the JCZ-version. So mixed feelings about that one:
- The mechanic of the Count seems a bit contradictory to the gameplay of Carcassonne - at least to me.
- On the other hand, I never gave the Count a honest try-out so if it would have been in the JCZ-version, I could have learnt to appreciate it...
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I am struggling between option 1 and option 2. On one hand I agree that we should be consequent and play big expansions first. On the other hand, I like the idea of Carcassonne Minis compilation more and think that such League would be very interesting.
I have additional question, it was inspired by ny1050220:
Sidetrack a bit, I usually include Catapult in JCZ, as the tiles are great!
Since we, obviously, won't be playing Catapult expansion as a separate League, why don't we include Catapult expansion (which is implemented as "tiles only") into Count, King and Robber League (of course, if it will be the winner of the poll)? This will put full end on all big expansions, present in JCZ.
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I think Count, King and Robber sounds like a good idea but unfortunately I cannot vote for this option because of the incorrect implementation of the pig tile rule in the River II expansion. I would also like to ask MrNumbers not to start a league with this expansion until this is fixed. Ask Farin, it shouldn't be too difficult to release a new version with just this fix. Thanks!
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I think Count, King and Robber sounds like a good idea but unfortunately I cannot vote for this option because of the incorrect implementation of the pig tile rule in the River II expansion.
What would happen if you did though?! :o
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I think Count, King and Robber sounds like a good idea but unfortunately I cannot vote for this option because of the incorrect implementation of the pig tile rule in the River II expansion.
What would happen if you did though?! :o
You mean, what to do if you already voted and want to change your mind? I don't know. Myself I did not vote yet, but without this issue with River II this expansion would be my choice. It seems that the majority has chosen Count, King and Robber too. However, it would be wise to wait for the (hopefully easy) fix.
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It seems that the majority has chosen Count, King and Robber too. However, it would be wise to wait for the (hopefully easy) fix.
The trouble is that farin has not been online at CarcC for 5 months. Neither it seems has he been working actively on JCloisterZone. Even if it is an easy fix, I think contacting him and asking him to make the change may not be as simple as it seems...
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I think Count, King and Robber sounds like a good idea but unfortunately I cannot vote for this option because of the incorrect implementation of the pig tile rule in the River II expansion. I would also like to ask MrNumbers not to start a league with this expansion until this is fixed. Ask Farin, it shouldn't be too difficult to release a new version with just this fix. Thanks!
Our two discussions about this (one (http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=1652.0) and two (http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=1723.0)) ended with nothing. Nevertheless I will try to ask Farin to implement this single feature and hope that he will agree to do it.
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I think Count, King and Robber sounds like a good idea but unfortunately I cannot vote for this option because of the incorrect implementation of the pig tile rule in the River II expansion.
What is the incorrect implementation?
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What is the incorrect implementation?
Go check the links MrNumbers just mentionned
Our two discussions about this (one (http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=1652.0) and two (http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=1723.0)) ended with nothing. Nevertheless I will try to ask Farin to implement this single feature and hope that he will agree to do it.
Great, thanks. I think it is worth asking. Then I expect one of these 3 possible replies:
1) Yes, sure no problem. Give me a few days.
2) No sorry I don't have time. Busy with other projects.
3) well, it's not that easy. It involves merging code and other manipulations... You'll have to wait for the next major release.
EDIT: you can find his email on the JCloisterZone webpage.
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Can someone describe the precise fix required and the current behaviour? I'm sure I can get it fixed, and patch JCZ if necessary.
Does the pig-farm get counted, even though it shouldn't? I think the feature can be disabled.
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Can someone describe the precise fix required and the current behaviour? I'm sure I can get it fixed, and patch JCZ if necessary.
Does the pig-farm get counted, even though it shouldn't? I think the feature can be disabled.
Oh yes. True, I forgot JCZ is open-source. Thanks Decar for pointing this out.
So, the quick and dirty fix for the league would be that the pig herd tile does not give a +1 point bonus to the cities in a farm.
The correct implementation would be that this bonus is only enabled when the T&B expansion is used. Best implementation would be to let the user decide by adding an option to always enable the pig herd bonus (like it currently works in JCZ).
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I'll see what I can do, will probably be over the weekend!
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In this case I guess the options for it would be:
- Always On (as is the case at the moment)
- Always Off (as we would wish it to be for this league)
- Depends on Expansions (off by default but on if T & B is also included)
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I think the GQ expansion has the same issue. I may attempt to kill 2 birds with my rock :(y)
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Some of us missed I&c and t&b first time around.
I prefer the pig farm in ck&r to always add to farms.
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Disabling the RiverII and GQ pig farms was straight-forward:
You can download no-pigsfarms JCloisterzone (http://tehill.net/carcassonne/jcloisterzone/nopig/JCloisterZone.jar) JAR file.
Just note: they are currently permanently disabled; I'll have a look at enabling a toggle this weekend.
I gave it a quick go locally and it seems correct.
What I'm not sure about is what happens when a host of a game has the patch and a client does not. I recommend NOT doing that :p
Let me know if there's any issues.
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Excellent work! (merit +1)
Will test when I arrive home. I can now vote for Count, King and Robber. :D
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I voted for the Mini expansions instead of Count, King and Robber simply because of the fact that the City of Carcassonne is not implemented in JCZ. In my opinion that is the element of the 6th expansion which has the biggest influence on the final outcome of the game, without it we couldn't really call the competion as "Count, King and Robber" league.
First I think we'd better ask farin (even if he's busy these days) if he can see any chance of developing the City of Carcassonne in the near future (let's say within a year). I think we shouldn't start a league for this expansion until we don't get a definitive negative answer (or no answer at all) from him.
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I think we shouldn't start a league for this expansion until we don't get a definitive negative answer (or no answer at all) from him.
OK, I will ask Farin this question too.
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Like halfling, I would like the opportunity to play the first expansions, as we noobies missed out the first time around. Sorry to be selfish! :-[
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Having thought about this a bit more, how about a league where everyone plays home and away, and the home player picks one major expansion of choice. This might add a bit of variety.
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Having thought about this a bit more, how about a league where everyone plays home and away, and the home player picks one major expansion of choice. This might add a bit of variety.
An alternative, but similar, idea might be to do something like the basegame league which is divided into a number of rounds. And each round uses a different set of expansions that are revealed at the start of the round when the fixtures for that round are announced.
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Having thought about this a bit more, how about a league where everyone plays home and away, and the home player picks one major expansion of choice. This might add a bit of variety.
I like the idea in general but for a tournament I don't think it's the best way to go because conditions won't be the same for all players in each game.
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I voted for all Minis. (except Wind Roses if there is still this bug where you can undo your turn, place the Wind Rose again and get 3 pts again. and again,..)
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We don't have to add wind roses this time even if we proceed with minis. Some people might object to adding too many expansions after all.
I cannot agree on the idea of doing the same things all over again just because some of us missed the early ones. I myself missed the first world cup and c'est la vie. What is not good about starting now with the minis and participate in the leagues of major expansions later when the most people have played the most expansions? We will always get new members who want to play in leagues. What if they join after the second round of major expansions and want a third round before any other expansions are ever played in leagues.
If we do go back to Inns & Cathedrals, I would recommend adding the phantom, just so that we're not simply repeating, but adding some more elements and fun.
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I vote mini-expansions or SMALL EXPANSIONS BOXES AGAIN !!
---> IN ONE LARGE BOX IN NEW ILLUSTRATION DESIGN LINE (with 7th corp-cirlces II !!! of course :yellow-meeple:)
NEED in another new 6 mini / small expansion boxes
( I have some ideas on my PC with rules & figure options)
with another 14th surprise mini-expansion. - maybe this year our little fan team will contact HiG to probe our idea with official background...
:blue-meeple: :red-meeple: :white-meeple: :green-meeple: :pink-meeple: :yellow-meeple: :black1-meeple: :gray-meeple:
...who knows the future: the meeple ! ("by magillaHU :yellow-meeple:")
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btw Wind & Roses undo bug was just fixed in 3.4.3
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I wrote an e-mail to farin and have received the detailed answer:
1. About pig herd in River II:
So my official solution will be
- score pig herd by default only when T&B is enabled;
- plus I am going to add custom rule "score pig herds separately" which enables previous behavior;
- (GQ11 house rule option will remain unchanged, it simply turns on/off presence of pig herd on ffff tile - which will affected same as River II herd by other options).
2. About Ferries:
I like Ferries, it's clean nice expansion without fortune. If there is demand for it, I can make priority from it.
3. About Count of Carcassonne:
The reason why I didn't finished this in past that I was afraid about too much user interaction when something is in the City of Carcassonne (each player who has something there must pass or deploy). But it's probably not an issue. Any way at this point it is IMO less interesting (and as I see it it's less important then Hills & Sheep, the official big expansion which should definitely be there).
So, as a conclusion:
Let's make some commitment to push things forward and try to release 1 + 2 in three weeks as next release.
"Count, King, and Robber" and "Carcassonne Minis" have equal votes now, but I haven't voted yet, so my vote is decisive :) After much thinking I'll give my vote for the "Count, King, and Robber". Firstly, this is numbered expansion, and I like numbers :D Secondly, I want to wait for implementation of Ferries in order to play "Carcassonne Minis League" with it included.
Now we have to wait for farin to fix pig herd (which he said is easy) and the next League can begin! :(y)
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That's great news! A massive merit to Farin from me! :(y) :(y) :(y) :(y) :(y) :(y)
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"Count, King, and Robber" and "Carcassonne Minis" have equal votes now, but I haven't voted yet, so my vote is decisive :) After much thinking I'll give my vote for the "Count, King, and Robber". Firstly, this is numbered expansion, and I like numbers :D Secondly, I want to wait for implementation of Ferries in order to play "Carcassonne Minis League" with it included.
Now we have to wait for farin to fix pig herd (which he said is easy) and the next League can begin! :(y)
This decision means that the implementation of the Ferries isn't that important now. And it's reasonable that in this (http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=2963.msg49294#msg49294) post farin said he would deal with the Count of Carcassonne first. I would suggest that we should wait for this before we start the next league.
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Hi guys
implementation of The Count is iun progreess. I not certain about following situation
Red player just placed cloister. 2 pts road has been finished and blue is going to move his follower from City of Carcassone on the road.
During scoring he receiving 2 pts. red player is receiving nothoing.
And now after scoring, did Red caused opponent score without receiving no points which allows him move his own follower into City of Carcassonne?
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In my opinion, Red can't move his follower into City of Carcassonne in described situation.
Quote from CAR (emphasis - mine):
Whenever a player places a tile that causes at least one player to score points,
And footnote 208:
It is clear from the wording that only scoring caused by placement of a tile can trigger placement of a follower in Carcassonne. Thus, scoring from non-landscape-tile related events (such as the Dispatches or paying a ransom for the Tower) would not trigger follower placement.
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MrNumbers: My problem is how to qualify difference agains common scoring. On the first sight I think Red can't move, but why.
Road was completed by tile event which triggers it's scoring. And it can contains combination of original followers / placed by City of Carcassone
imagine little bit different situation (now Red has follower in CoC):
Blue is already on the road. And Red place tile and close the road and than before scoring move his follower from City on that road.
Now both scores - there is probably now doubt that Red is not allowed to move his follower inside CoC afterward.
But whole situation is not much different from my first example. There some situation and move from CoC changes a result of scoring.
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Now I carefully have read Order of Play:
Followers from City of Carcassonne get moved to the features on step 7e.
Scoring occurs on step 7h.
Opportunity to place follower to City of Carcassonne is on step 8c, so at that moment it is already clear, if someone from City of Carcassonne has received some points.
OK, I agree that Red should have an opportunity to place a follower into CoC in described situation.
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Status update
I am not satisfied with current UX. It's hard to follow what is happening and what opponent played.
Similiar problem already exists for Tower, where you must be really careful about placing on top of tower.
With count it's much stronger.
Also situations when you placed follower and then you are alowed place to City of Carcassone looks strange, because
action panel did not change (you still see follower action)
I decided to susped this expansion, current impl is not good enough, and focus on UX stuff first.
My idea is add general game log when you easilly see all past action. Something similiar was already proposed
https://github.com/farin/JCloisterZone/issues/56
Unfortunatelly I would like to make one big interal change which helps a lot (not only for this - it open my had for AI imporvemtns, better undo and eg Ferries expansion)
I am working on it.
But, I recomment not to wait to Count for next league round. Current estimation for new realeasi is 2 months.
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Thanks for the update, farin.
But, I recommend not to wait to Count for next league round. Current estimation for new release is 2 months.
Given the information above, I propose to play Carcassonne Minis League with existing Mini expansions: Flier, Goldmines, Mage and Witch and Crop Circles. If no significant reason will be given for not to do that way, soon I'll publish a signing-up post for that League.
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Reasonable decision. :(y)
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Sounds good to me too, but I need to get in a bit of practice first! :(y)
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Fine with me. Merit to Farin for the efforts.
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Sounds good to me too, but I need to get in a bit of practice first! :(y)
Nice idea, the mini 4/7 competition! :-)
I could use some practice as well so if anyone is available this evening...let me know.
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This will be a big one with 30 extra tiles! Sounds crazy though; I'm definitely in...