Carcassonne Central
Carc Central Community => General => Topic started by: Hounk on January 26, 2015, 02:55:49 PM
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Yesterday I ordered at CundCo among other things two sets of meeples (white and violet) and also some spare parts to support 8 player game with (most of) the expansions. So I ordered 2 Abbeys, which are obvious needed, but also 2 tower pieces (thinking 4 pieces per person would be enough for 7 or 8 players) and 4 bridges and castles. I asked, if they agree, and the lady answered, I should order 10 tower pieces, so that even with 8 players the ratio is the same like with 6 of 5 pieces per person.
So what do you think about that? (Except, that I should not consider 8 player games at all.) Plus: do you think I should calculate at least 2 bridges and castles per person in a 8 player game, or would be one of each sufficient, so that I would not need to order any of them at all.
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If I were ever to play with 8 players (which, first I would need to try playing with at least 5 ;)), I would only buy 2 more tower pieces and I wouldn't buy any more bridges or castles. 4 towers/person and 1 bridge or castle/person seems like plenty. I would think that the possibility of 16 castles or bridges would make them a bit too strong.
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I am all in favour of huge games of Carcassonne. I've played a few 8-player games myself. The biggest issue is always the number of tiles. With 71 playable tiles, that's 9 tiles for every player (8 for the eighth player). It's not a lot. I assume you are planning to play with expansions since you're asking about expansion components. I'd personally go with the scaling. If it should be 10 tower pieces, I'd get ten. And unlike DLloyd09, I would prefer each player have two bridges and two Castles. It's only fair. The odds of all sixteen of both being played is almost impossible, but at least the option is there. Plus, bridges especially often play off one another, so having two per players is almost essential to encourage that kind of use.
I honestly hadn't thought much about 8-player upgrade problems until this post. What other things should be increased to match the higher number of players? Obviously tunnel tokens. Perhaps Dragon-moves phases should go to 8 instead of 6? Extra sets of Catapult tokens are needed. Anything else required to scale up a game of Carcassonne with expansions to 8 players?
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And unlike DLloyd09, I would prefer each player have two bridges and two Castles. It's only fair. The odds of all sixteen of both being played is almost impossible, but at least the option is there. Plus, bridges especially often play off one another, so having two per players is almost essential to encourage that kind of use.
Having only played bridges with TWO people, I would think that eight people with two bridges each would turn into an absolute field nightmare, but maybe that's just me. ???
I honestly hadn't thought much about 8-player upgrade problems until this post. What other things should be increased to match the higher number of players? Obviously tunnel tokens. Perhaps Dragon-moves phases should go to 8 instead of 6? Extra sets of Catapult tokens are needed. Anything else required to scale up a game of Carcassonne with expansions to 8 players?
Off the top of my head, depending on the extent of your collection, besides the already mentioned abbeys, tower pieces, tunnels, and catapult tokens: (1) at least an extra set of Halflings, (2) some extra 50/100 tiles, (3) extra phantoms, (4) extra little buildings. Probably more that I'm not thinking of.
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Extra Catapult tokens absolutely not needed! Even with 2-6 players it's enough with just one set.
With Halflings we usually mix 2 sets (I & II) and choose randomly 2 tiles, so extra Halflings, IMO, also not needed.
As for bridges and tower pieces, I'll go with whaleyland: at least you must have an option, so I wouldn't reduce the amount of these.
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So, the 8-Player Kit for a MegaGame includes:
– 2 Sets of Tunnel tokens (in variant colors)
– 2 Sets of Little Buildings
– 10 Extra Tower pieces
– 4 Extra Bridges
– 4 Extra Castles
– 2 Extra 50/100 counters
– 2 Complete Follower and Figure Sets (in appropriate colors)
Optional components:
– 2 Sets of Catapult tokens (because for target practice, you need your own!)
– Both sets of Halflings
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I'd personally go with the scaling. If it should be 10 tower pieces, I'd get ten.
My concern about the validness of this scaling was also, because I am not absolutely sure, that the lady from HiG knew, that there is a scaling depending to the numbers of players at all. Seems to me, she assumed, everybody gets 5 pieces, no matter if 2 or 3 or 5 players are in the game.The odds of all sixteen of both being played is almost impossible, but at least the option is there.
What would you think about this "house rule" then: each player is limited to two bridges and two castles, but they are drawn from a pool. So, once all 12 had been used, the other players are out of luck. Of course this would require to take notes during the game, who already used some of the bridges and castles. Or maybe some home made color token to mark the objects regardless of scoring for the entire game.
About the other components: Phantons are a big issue. It would be extremely nice at some time getting two extra ones, but till them, I would say, this expansion has to be simply ruled out, whenever a 8 player game takes place. The CundCo Halflings had been among the "other things" I mentioned, as are an extra set of 6 50/100 counters. And I bought a Spielbox Halflings set at eBay, so I should have enough of them. Little Buildings was among the expansion I considered skipping at all, would you considering them worth the buy? Plus Tunnels are hard to get and kettlefish mentioned somewhere, there might be a collection of the Spielbox expansion been reprinted sometime in the future. (Probably with new artwork, though.) Anyway, I would not be concerned about getting the extra color tokens before getting the expansion itself. ;) Of course this thread is open for any other thoughts about 8 players games from players, who have all expansions.
Regarding the tile number: I was thinking of including I&C and T&B (maybe also River I&II with two sources and one lake) into the "8 players base game", then probably at least one other major expansion and minis depending on whatever is suggested to hit the table on that day. Would you think, it be a good idea, to buy a second set of the base game to scale it up? There might be a little bit to many cloisters i the game then, though.
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Well if you're scaling, scale the cloisters similarly. There is one cloister per player, essentially, so add two. I'd recommend personally tracking down a copy of Wheel of Fortune and using those tiles; that way you don't technically have two base games, but there are plenty of people here with two or more base games, so that may not be an issue. Other than that, the expansions should all work just fine more or less, though the random chance of luck draws increases with more players. One player, for instance, may draw most of one type of trade tile while another may draw none. Granted this can happen at any number of players, but I feel it gets worse with more.
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Eeeesh - I find 4-player games tiresome, 8-players? You'd be able to watch a film between turns, and it would be extremely hard to have any real strategy as you've only got a 1/8 chance of pulling a specific tile.
I'd enforce a strict time-limit per turn so at least you're not waiting half an hour between turns.
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Well if you're scaling, scale the cloisters similarly. There is one cloister per player, essentially, so add two. I'd recommend personally tracking down a copy of Wheel of Fortune and using those tiles; that way you don't technically have two base games, but there are plenty of people here with two or more base games, so that may not be an issue. Other than that, the expansions should all work just fine more or less, though the random chance of luck draws increases with more players. One player, for instance, may draw most of one type of trade tile while another may draw none. Granted this can happen at any number of players, but I feel it gets worse with more.
Do not only scale the cloister per person but also per tile. In the basic set there should be 1 cloister per 12 tiles ... for 8 players you should have at least 8 cloisters out of 96 tiles. Simplyest way is to take two basic games ... or take the princess and dragon tiles but don't use the dragon, princess, fairy and magic gate.
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Wow! This is an amazing topic - so many details I've missed when trying to prepare for a 7+ player game (Not had one yet, but I have 9 player-sets now). I had only thought about the score tiles, meeples and abbey tiles.
So, the 8-Player Kit for a MegaGame includes:
– 2 Sets of Tunnel tokens (in variant colors)
– 2 Sets of Little Buildings
– 10 Extra Tower pieces
– 4 Extra Bridges
– 4 Extra Castles
– 2 Extra 50/100 counters
– 2 Complete Follower and Figure Sets (in appropriate colors)
Optional components:
– 2 Sets of Catapult tokens (because for target practice, you need your own!)
– Both sets of Halflings
If we consider each extra player in a game with more than 6 players (making sure players are no worse off than with 6 players), then each player will need:
– 1 Complete Follower and Figure Sets (in appropriate color) [Alternate colour Phantoms not available :(y) :@ Carcatronn :(y):@ ]
– 1 pair of Tunnel tokens (in appropriate color) [Maybe you should also add enough tunnel entrances on tiles for the number of players too.]
– 1 of each Little Buildings (3 Buildings total)
– 5 Extra Tower pieces
– 2 Extra Bridges
– 2 Extra Castles
– 1 Extra 50/100 counters
– 1 Abbey Tile
– 2 Halfling Tiles
– 1 of each type of catapult token (These could be shared without much difficulty)
Anything else we've missed?
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Eeeesh - I find 4-player games tiresome, 8-players? You'd be able to watch a film between turns, and it would be extremely hard to have any real strategy as you've only got a 1/8 chance of pulling a specific tile.
I'd enforce a strict time-limit per turn so at least you're not waiting half an hour between turns.
+1 to this! Whilst I like the idea of playing against 7 opponents at once, I think I'd find it thoroughly frustrating having so little influence over the game and would likely get bored between turns. I'm keen to hear how it goes though, be sure to take plenty of photos of your game and post them here!
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What about a game of Carcassonne where each person has his own draw bag with the same number of tiles in it. The game has a total time limit of say 45 minutes and you can lay you tiles one at time from your draw bag but with no player play order! It would be MANIC! But could be fun.
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LOL, why not go for a free for all with no turn order; who can lay their 9 tiles down fastest wins >:D
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I wonder if HIG could be persuaded to offer an eight player upgrade package for the mega carcassonne/completionists among us (as I tend to be). Perhaps if as community we could come up with a consensus on a upgrade list that would acount for all existing expansion sets. I am picturing a bundle via c undo shop online, as opposed to a boxed retail set. I doubt the public at large would ever require such a package.
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Most of the Carcassonne games I played had been between Christmas and New Years Eve last year. During this time I normally meet my big family so I had some 2 player games just with a cousin of mine, but also some with aunts and uncles and other cousins up to 6 players. And we considered the 6 player games different but still fun. You have to arrange yourself, building a city here with one opponent,a road there with an other one. And then on some occasions, when the timing is right, try to sneak an other meeple inside, but not always, since you need other people to finish your buildings. So there is plenty of strategies in this, although different from a two player game. I must admit though, that we were of course just establishing this on a very basic level, since the game was new to all of us. However, thats why I considered scaling up to 8 players, when I noticed there are meeple sets in other colors, because there would have people for 8 player games at least in my family and there will be again next Christmas.
Meanwhile the lady from HiG answered me. She confirmed that she was not sure about it and considered my thoughts about the scaling comprehensible but according to a colleague, it should still be preferable to order 10 more tower pieces. So taking into account, that this is also the opinion of whaleyland and Mr.Numbers I will do so. I think, I will also order the extra bridges and castles, just to make sure.
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This topic has sort of been discussed before, but some new expansions have emerged since then, and I'm always interested in new ideas:
http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=545 (http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=545)
Everything that was covered previously appears to have been covered again, and in greater detail! I'd really like to see us develop a best-possible solution to this question, and then perhaps added to the CAR? I think addressing it on a per-player basis is the best approach, so that people can easily calculate how much of everything they need to buy for however many players they want to be able to support.
Considering the challenges in acquiring extra tunnel tokens and little buildings, I wonder whether those should be moved to the optional components list. I feel that it is not fair to recommend purchasing something that is not easily available from Carcassonne Shoppe or Cundco.
I'd like to see some more research to support what an appropriate number of tower pieces should be. I'm ok with adding more tower pieces, but should it really level out at 5 per player, or should it decrease further to 4 per player? I still lean towards the idea of leaving things like tower pieces and bridges in a shared pool rather than allocating specific numbers to each player, but I acknowledge that this opinion may not be shared by others. Perhaps this idea could be included as an alternative.
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This topic has sort of been discussed before, but some new expansions have emerged since then, and I'm always interested in new ideas:
http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=545 (http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=545)
Everything that was covered previously appears to have been covered again, and in greater detail! I'd really like to see us develop a best-possible solution to this question, and then perhaps added to the CAR? I think addressing it on a per-player basis is the best approach, so that people can easily calculate how much of everything they need to buy for however many players they want to be able to support.
Considering the challenges in acquiring extra tunnel tokens and little buildings, I wonder whether those should be moved to the optional components list. I feel that it is not fair to recommend purchasing something that is not easily available from Carcassonne Shoppe or Cundco.
I'd like to see some more research to support what an appropriate number of tower pieces should be. I'm ok with adding more tower pieces, but should it really level out at 5 per player, or should it decrease further to 4 per player? I still lean towards the idea of leaving things like tower pieces and bridges in a shared pool rather than allocating specific numbers to each player, but I acknowledge that this opinion may not be shared by others. Perhaps this idea could be included as an alternative.
Thanks Scott, I have tried to modify my previous post, items in italics are derived from the assumption that we need "more" playing pieces because there are more than 6 players. As far as I can see, the only expansion describing more than 6 players is the Halflings. I have also added rule clarification where I can (in bold, from the S-CAR v7.3) from the corresponding "Preparation" sections.
If we consider each extra player in a game with more than 6 players (making sure players are no worse off than with 6 players), then each player will need:
– 1 Complete Follower and Figure Sets (in appropriate colour) [Alternate colour Phantoms not available :(y) :@ Carcatronn :(y):@ ]
– 1 Extra 50/100 counter (1 per player) [In case all players score over 50]
– 1 Extra Abbey Tile (1 per player) [At the beginning of the game, every player receives one abbey tile]
– 2 Halfling Tiles [{mix} all triangular tiles face down, and {give} 2 to each player]
– 1 of each type of catapult token (1 of each per player) [Every player {...} receives 1 catapult token of each type—a total of 4 for each player.] [These could be shared without much difficulty, no player colour on tokens]
– 1 pair of Tunnel tokens (in appropriate colour) [Every player receives the tunnel tokens corresponding to his or her color. In games of 2, each player may use 3 sets of tokens; in games with 3 players, each may use 2 sets.] [Maybe you should also add enough tunnel entrances on tiles for the number of players too.]
– 1 of each Little Buildings (3 Buildings total per player) [Distribute the 18 {...} buildings evenly among all players. In the 4 or 5 player game, put the excess buildings back into the box.]
– 5 Extra Tower pieces [Each player receives a number of tower pieces, according to the total number of players: 2 players: 10 pieces each, 3 players: 9 pieces each, 4 players: 7 pieces each, 5 players: 6 pieces each, 6 players: 5 pieces each]
– 2 Extra Bridges (2 per player) [With 2 to 4 players, each receives 3 bridges and 3 castles.]
– 2 Extra Castles (2 per player) [With 5 or 6 players, each receives 2 bridges and 2 castles.]
Maybe we can get clarification from HiG? Preferably to at least 12 players?
P.S. Little Buildings is available (for €2.99) from cundco.de
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This topic has sort of been discussed before, but some new expansions have emerged since then, and I'm always interested in new ideas:
http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=545 (http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=545)
Everything that was covered previously appears to have been covered again, and in greater detail!
Thanks for sharing the link. I don't think, everything there had been covered here as well. Very interesting was your paragraph of tile scaling. Your calculation of minimum 112 tiles for 8 players seems quite coherent to me. According to that, base + I&C + T&B would exactly meet this requirements, adding River I&II giving a little extra space. And this seems quite suffice to me, because I would not consider playing 8 player games with people, who have never played Carcassonne before, so there would be at least a few games of teaching with I&C to the max for everybody. And after a few games with this setup, there could be other expansions added to the mix to further increase to a nice balanced game. Of course, the T&B tiles are a little more complicated with their odd shaped citys with road extensions than base and I&C, but since this mix plays beautiful with a lesser amount of players, it should still be possible with more players, as long as the total number of tiles are enough.
Whaleylands suggestion with the "Wheel of Fortune" seemed appealing at first thought, but I am not so sure, if this "roulette like theming" of this expansion is really something, I would like to add to Carcassonne. Plus it seems to be out of print and not so easy to get at a reasonable price anymore.
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I wasn't necessarily saying that you'd have to include the Wheel of Fortune expansion in the game, only the tiles. It includes a full set of 72 tiles, some of which borrowed configurations from later expansions. Plus the tiles are watermarked which means they can be separated out later, if so desired. But I agree that obtaining this expansion may be well near impossible.
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Whaleylands suggestion with the "Wheel of Fortune" seemed appealing at first thought, but I am not so sure, if this "roulette like theming" of this expansion is really something, I would like to add to Carcassonne. Plus it seems to be out of print and not so easy to get at a reasonable price anymore.
Wheel of Fortune is available here (http://shop.spiele-akademie.de/en/Boardgames/Carcassonne-Das-Schicksalsrad.html?listtype=search&searchparam=carcassonne). I don't know if you think €45 is reasonable or not. I bought it in a store in Switzerland three weeks ago for about €25.
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Well in general, the watermarks might be a very big advantage. In my case however it is not that important, since I own the base game from the Big Box 4 which has a much darker dye of the fields than probably any other regular HiG print. (The tiles are also slightly thiner, but that would be not usable to distinguish the two different sets of base game, while the color of the fields would on first sight.)
EDIT @jungleboy: 45€ would be to much for me. Not principally: if I would dig into the mechanism of the expansion and I know, it is out of print, I would probably buy it. But I won't build up a "complete Carcasonne collection" anyway, leaving out Catapult, Wind Roses, Darmstadt, etc., so there is no reason to buy it for sake of completeness. Of course, if I consider buying a second base game, and I get for the same price or a little more WoT, I would rather get WoT.
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If you have both sets of Halflings, you already have enough for 12 players.
We could make a catapult token usage tracking sheet for those who don't want to obtain a second set. (Was bad enough buying Catapult the first time...)
The four Tunnel expansion tiles have 10 tunnel entrances. If you're playing P&D, you have one more tile with 2 entrances, for a total of 12 entrances matching the number of tunnel tokens. (I also found a tile with 2 tunnel entrances in A&M.) If you add more tunnel tokens, should we also be scaling the number of tunnel tiles, or is it a case of first-come-first-served?
Adding Wheel of Fortune or a second base game might be nicer in a 10+ player game, especially if a few of the players are new. In that case I wouldn't play with the wheel, just the tiles.
To connect the discussion of tile scaling back to the earlier discussion about cloister scaling, I think it might be helpful to have a list of cloisters added per expansion:
+1 cloister = River, I&C, T&B, Tower, GQ11, A&M, Catapult, BC&B, Festival, Halflings 1
+2 cloisters = P&D, H&S
+4 cloisters = Goldmines
+5 cloisters = Spielbox Cult
+6 cloisters = RGG Cult, German Monasteries, Dutch/Belgian Monasteries
+7 cloisters = CK&C (1 from King, 1 from River 2, and 5 from Cult), Wheel of Fortune
The conclusion I draw from this investigation is that both WoF and large expansions are suitable for increasing the tiles-to-players ratio while maintaining the cloisters-to-tiles ratio. Minis which are not on the list above (the numbered minis, windroses, crop circles, plague, cathars, besiegers, tunnel) add zero cloister tiles, so you should add them after reaching the minimum number of tiles, or they need to be added together with an expansion that has a high cloister-to-tile ratio such as Goldmines, one of the separate cult expansions, or one of the monastery expansions.
The "smallest" large expansion has 12 tiles, so I think Fritz is right about a 1:12 cloister-to-tile ratio. You would probably need to add most or all of the zero-cloister expansions to be able to justify adding a 6-tile monastery expansion without removing cloisters to maintain the balance.
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Scaling the 10 entrances for 6 players up to 8 players, you would "need" 13 1/3 entrances, so the 14 including the P&D and A&M tiles would suite perfectly. Of course for even more players, the ratio decrease, but since there is no scaling between 2 and 6 players regarding tunnel entrances and a "first comes, first served" solution for 6 players in the rules of the expansion, I would think, this can be applied to any number of players. The more players there are, the more I would take into consideration adding the two P&D and A&M tiles into the game, even if not playing with the rest of this expansions and skipping the other tiles.
There are two cloisters in H&S.
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There are two cloisters in H&S.
Oops, I totally counted both cloisters when I was looking at the tiles, but I put it in the 1 cloister list by accident. Fixed!
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Here are some Catapult tokens where I have added a coloured border to them with enough for 12 players:
(http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd18/eddebaby/WIN7X64_ED/extraplayertokens_2.png) (http://s226.photobucket.com/user/eddebaby/media/WIN7X64_ED/Photobucket/extraplayertokens.png.html)
(Click the image to go to a higher resolution version which should be fit for 300dpi printing.)
Also included are the extra 6 coloured tunnel tokens. Print two copies if you want to have the colour border on both sides of the Catapult tokens. You can then either stick them on the existing tokens or use spare/blank Carcassonne tiles or any other spare thick cardboard and cut to size.
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It's funny. I'm not certain if I even want to be able to play 12 players, but I feel a compulsion to buy all the bits so I can now.
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It's funny. I'm not certain if I even want to be able to play 12 players, but I feel a compulsion to buy all the bits so I can now.
Do they have that many alternate colors now? I know they have Pink, Purple, Orange, and "nude". What are the other two? Brown and White?
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It's funny. I'm not certain if I even want to be able to play 12 players, but I feel a compulsion to buy all the bits so I can now.
Do they have that many alternate colors now? I know they have Pink, Purple, Orange, and "nude". What are the other two? Brown and White?
Yep. Those are the other two.
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Wow. That's a lot of colors. I feel like I need to buy them...just to buy them. Bad reasons, right? I guess until they make available alt colors of Tunnel pieces and Abbey tiles, I won't bother. I want a truly complete set of 6 alt colors without having to re-buy everything. It would also require me purchasing a second set of Little Buildings, I suppose. Ugh. So much stuff...and my game group currently doesn't even exist!
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Wow. That's a lot of colors. I feel like I need to buy them...just to buy them. Bad reasons, right? I guess until they make available alt colors of Tunnel pieces and Abbey tiles, I won't bother. I want a truly complete set of 6 alt colors without having to re-buy everything. It would also require me purchasing a second set of Little Buildings, I suppose. Ugh. So much stuff...and my game group currently doesn't even exist!
Not to forget the phantom!
I also have the feeling inside myself, that I need to buy these new colours! Maybe this is what addiction feels like. :o ;D
However, until now I didn't buy them, because of the reasons, that whaleyland mentioned. Still, orange (or pink) and violet would be more beautiful then black and grey. :D
Ah, yes: I have part of the pink and violet ones since I bought BB5. ;D As I said: Addiction. XD
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At least they finally have all the primary colors, and the monochromes:
Red
Orange
Yellow
Green
Blue
Purple
Black
Grey
White
Then we also get Pink and Brown, two blends, and Nude. I think we still need an Indigo color, which Caverna has in its color mix. Other than that, though, I feel like we have all the meeple colors we'll ever need. When are we going to get meeple emojis in these colors? I feel so limited now with only the six. :red-meeple: :meeple: :green-meeple: :blue-meeple: :black-meeple: :gray-meeple:
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I think we still need an Indigo color, which Caverna has in its color mix.
What would that look like? I couldn't find it online.
When are we going to get meeple emojis in these colors? I feel so limited now with only the six. :red-meeple: :meeple: :green-meeple: :blue-meeple: :black-meeple: :gray-meeple:
LOL
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We have multiple players in our group that like Blue and Green...so I have two shades of each - light and dark to reign in the fighting. I also have a set in teal, lavender and maroon, as well as all of the ones whaleyland listed above. All together I have around 17 colors to choose from. Each set has its own phantom and abbey, and a set of bridges, castles and tunnels. They are complete. I got a little carried away - but there are certainly no fights about colors. :)
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I've already bought the orange and pink meeple sets, and extra scoring tiles. I'll be buying a purple meeple set and 6 extra abbey tiles shortly too. The main things that I'll feel lacking about are extra tunnel colours and extra Phantoms.
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Eddababy made a set of six extra colors tunnel tokens and posted them earlier in this thread. Phantoms, of course, are a bigger deal.
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They look great. I'm just not sure of my ability to cut out decent looking small circles out of thick cardboard.
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We have multiple players in our group that like Blue and Green...so I have two shades of each - light and dark to reign in the fighting. I also have a set in teal, lavender and maroon, as well as all of the ones whaleyland listed above. All together I have around 17 colors to choose from. Each set has its own phantom and abbey, and a set of bridges, castles and tunnels. They are complete. I got a little carried away - but there are certainly no fights about colors. :)
You have to take a photo of that amazing collection, please! Especially of the tunnel tokens and the phantoms. ^-^
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Just to throw a spanner in the works...
Would you also need to scale your sheep and wolf tokens? The numbers are worked out so that as you draw more sheep, you have a higher chance of drawing a wolf. With six players compared to say, three, the sheep will be spread out more and each player will have a reduced scoring opportunity and a higher chance of drawing a wolf more quickly. Since the expansion is designed for up to six players, this is obviously accounted for. But with eight players, your sheep would go even faster.
Probably irrelevant, but if you were scaling for up to twelve players as I think I saw someone suggest it might be pertinent. Thoughts?
Christopher
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For 12 players I'd probably take 2x all the sheep and wolf tokens. The probability of drawing a wolf is the same, but with only 18 tokens there is no chance to build a strong herd. So I think there is a good reason to scale the sheep and wolf tokens, too. Maybe 9 tokens extra (including 1 wolf) for 7 - 9 players and 18 tokens extra für 10 - 12 players.
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Just to throw a spanner in the works...
Would you also need to scale your sheep and wolf tokens? The numbers are worked out so that as you draw more sheep, you have a higher chance of drawing a wolf. With six players compared to say, three, the sheep will be spread out more and each player will have a reduced scoring opportunity and a higher chance of drawing a wolf more quickly. Since the expansion is designed for up to six players, this is obviously accounted for. But with eight players, your sheep would go even faster.
Probably irrelevant, but if your were scaling for up to twelve players as I think I saw someone suggest it might be pertinent. Thoughts?
Christopher
If we take the BB5 as reference, one probably should not, since they included all the extra stuff for 8 players but didn't raise the amount of sheep tokens.
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Sure they did. They put some sheep on the River. Maybe they didn't add tiles, but they added sheep.
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Well, that's what Safari wrote: they did not add tokens. So they did not alter the likeness of drawing a wolf. Plus the sheep tiles are rather restricted to a small area around the river. And the use of this tiles is not restricted to 8 players games anyway, so HiG does not make there any difference.
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Fair enough. But I think we can make an assumption here that while BB5 added two more 50/100 tokens and included all the relevant player pieces, they did not actually scale the game up to 8 players, they merely added the pieces to support that many players. The repercussions of adding two more players to the game were probably not even tested except informally. I'd say that the inclusion of the sheep and vineyard on the River I tiles was possibly in response to the fact that the game may not be balanced with 8 players without those additions. Since Hills & Sheep includes six vineyards (one per player), adding two more in The River I brings the number up to match the number of potential players. While the math for that doesn't work as well in regards to adding two more sheep, I assume that it was still the purpose of the addition. With all the expansions combined, six more cloisters were added (which mathematically does not quite line up to the scaling totals we've devised, but I think is close). Inns, Cathedrals, Wheel numbers, and trading locations have not been scaled.
In any case, I think the two sheep and two vineyards were a poor attempt to scale the game and that there is an assumption when playing BB5 with eight players that The River will be included in that game. Perhaps that could have been stated somewhere in the rules, but game companies are notoriously brief in addressing such issues.
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While I agree, that they might have added the 2 more colors as a bonus without too much testing, I would doubt, that the features on the river tiles were meant for scaling. I would rather think, this was made, to further promote the newest expansion, like you know it was also done on the CundCo Halflings.
But, if they were thinking about scaling sheep and wolves, don't you think, that they would have started with that right from the beginning? Providing rules, that you, lets say, have to include only 9 sheep tokens, when playing with 2 players, 12 when playing with 3, etc? After all, the difference in the likeness of drawing wolfs is bigger between 2 and 6 players, then between 6 and 8 players.
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But, if they were thinking about scaling sheep and wolves, don't you think, that they would have started with that right from the beginning? Providing rules, that you, lets say, have to include only 9 sheep tokens, when playing with 2 players, 12 when playing with 3, etc? After all, the difference in the likeness of drawing wolfs is bigger between 2 and 6 players, then between 6 and 8 players.
Possibly, but I don't know that scaling would suit the Sheep mechanism (I realise that contradicts what I said earlier, but let me explain). Things such as castles and towers were scaled to prevent them from being too powerful. This doesn't really apply to the sheep because you'd be hard pressed to come up with a way to use your flock of sheep against another player. The numbers of sheep and wolf tokens given in the expansion have (hopefully) been tested with numbers up to six players. I have played with two, three and four players, and the only noticeable difference is that that your flock is smaller. Scaling the expansion would be unnecessarily complex. This falls apart, however, when you add more players, because the difference which was largely negligible with up to six players becomes more and more prominent.
So you could keep the numbers static for up to six players, but add more as you add more players.
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Well, I didn't say it was well thought out scaling. But I don't see a marketing value to the new River I features. The special version of River I is only in Big Box 5 and the expansion is not even advertised on the box as unique. The addition is clearly not for marketing purposes or they would have made a bigger deal about it. The fact that they didn't and still haven't made these tiles available outside the BB5 suggests to me that they were intended for integration and scaling within the box and not for anything else.
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I agree with the unique River I being included for integration. It could be done to make the individual expansions more compatible. Or, not compatible, exactly, but interlinked. Most expansions are completely independent of one another, which is great because it means you can play them separately, but it also means there is less play-ability when combining. The sheep and the vineyard being present on the River I are akin to the volcano in the River II and the inn in Bridges, Castles and Bazaars.
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I thought I'd continue this thread rather than start a new one, because, well, why the devil not?
I've just placed a large Cundco order to make my Carcassonne collection playable for ten players. Why I have done this, I'm not quite sure, as I usually play with six people. I did once play with about 12 people, but we did teams of two.
Anyway. Initially I was just going to order the additional meeples I needed to complete the purple set I have from BB5. Then I thought that it was little use having a complete set of pink and purple followers if I didn't have the other means to support them playing. So I ordered some more tower pieces, castle tokens, abbey tiles and bridges. Then for completion, I also ordered catapult tokens (yes, I know). Then I thought, I might as well go all in, and ordered white and orange followers. And the additional pieces I needed for them to play. Which also included an additional set of phantoms I had to procure from elsewhere.
Then I realised I would need halfling tiles for everyone. Fortunately, I already have both sets of halflings, which solves that little problem. However.
Does anyone see where I'm going with this?
I realised I also needed a second set of German Castles. If each player is to be given one at the beginning of the game, one set isn't enough for even an eight player game. So, also in my order was a second set of German Castles. I hadn't considered this when initially thinking of expanding. It's also a shame to have the same castles twice, do you think we can ask Mrs Matthaus and the nice people at HIG to do another set of castles for us so we can play with more people? >:D
The order ended up being rather large. Still, I am short tunnel tokens, which I'll probably make myself, and Little Buildings, so if anyone has a spare copy of the latter they are willing to part with, please let me know!
Oh, and in addition, if anyone has been following my slow descent into madness as I wrestle with my inner demons on the matter of to buy or not to buy Carcassonne II, and is wondering...
Yes, I did order abbots in the additional colours.
Damn myself twelve ways.
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You'll feel much better once you've popped those tiles and played a game or two with them.
Safari, sent me some lovely extra tunnel pieces for Christmas. I meant to take a photo! He might be able to offer some tunnel clues :)
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I thought I'd continue this thread rather than start a new one, because, well, why the devil not?
I've just placed a large Cundco order to make my Carcassonne collection playable for ten players.
Smart thinking in both statements. I have a ten player set and i have read this topic several times.
So I ordered some more tower pieces, castle tokens, abbey tiles and bridges. Then for completion, I also ordered catapult tokens (yes, I know).
My problem is that we discoverd Carcassonne pretty late so i just recently got the remaining big expansions i still missed. That means that i keep running after the facts with the 10 player sets. I have enough scoring tiles, all the meeples from all the expansions and extra abbey tiles. But i'm still missing extra bridges, castles, tower pieces and catapult tokens. I get why you want those to, it's just having the possibility to play catapult with 10 players and to have a complete set ;)
I take it you ordered 8 extra bridges and castles? Thats what i was thinking about since reading this topic. Two per person extra. But how meany tower pieces did you order? I'm still not sure, i get why people say that you need 5 per person, since thats what the rules say for six players. But the rules also downscale the numbers of pieces when you ad more players. So maybe 5 is to much. But how many then, since 2 or phiewer doesnt get the result you want in the game.
Which also included an additional set of phantoms I had to procure from elsewhere.
Really?! In alernate colours? Where did you get those? I'm looking for these a while now! I don't want to buy the original phantoms unless i can get the 4 alternate colours to (i have the same colours as you have)
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So I ordered some more tower pieces, castle tokens, abbey tiles and bridges. Then for completion, I also ordered catapult tokens (yes, I know).
My problem is that we discoverd Carcassonne pretty late so i just recently got the remaining big expansions i still missed. That means that i keep running after the facts with the 10 player sets. I have enough scoring tiles, all the meeples from all the expansions and extra abbey tiles. But i'm still missing extra bridges, castles, tower pieces and catapult tokens. I get why you want those to, it's just having the possibility to play catapult with 10 players and to have a complete set ;)
I take it you ordered 8 extra bridges and castles? Thats what i was thinking about since reading this topic. Two per person extra. But how meany tower pieces did you order? I'm still not sure, i get why people say that you need 5 per person, since thats what the rules say for six players. But the rules also downscale the numbers of pieces when you ad more players. So maybe 5 is to much. But how many then, since 2 or phiewer doesnt get the result you want in the game.
Eight bridges and eight castles, so that each player can have two. I know it scales, but only having one of each wouldn't seem like enough to me. I even thought about ordering more, so that players can have more than two or even more than three in large games. If you consider that in a game with the base game and BC&B players have two or three castle tokens to 84 tiles, in a several-hundred tiled game, that isn't very much. But I digress.
I did order 20 additional tower pieces so that each player could have five. However, I may yet scale it down. I play to do some play testing. Five may turn out to be far too many with ten players. But, again, I would probably base it on how many tiles we are using.
Which also included an additional set of phantoms I had to procure from elsewhere.
Really?! In alernate colours? Where did you get those? I'm looking for these a while now! I don't want to buy the original phantoms unless i can get the 4 alternate colours to (i have the same colours as you have)
Standard colours, I'm afraid. I plan to mark them in some way to differentiate them. I just didn't want the alternate coloured players to miss out!
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So eight bridges and castles. I think i'm gonna go with that to. Although you make a good point about the big games. Do you have 20 tunnel tokens or tower pieces? That bit is a little confusing to me. We don't play with the tunnels (so far) so i'm not going to need them. On the other hand, the last time i thought i had everything it didn't go so well with all the expanding since then.
To bad that the phantoms are standard colours. But i think it's a nice solution you came up with. If i would have the base set of phantoms i would do that to. Now i'm just restraining myself from buying the phantoms :P
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So eight bridges and castles. I think i'm gonna go with that to. Although you make a good point about the big games. Do you have 20 tunnel tokens or tower pieces? That bit is a little confusing to me. We don't play with the tunnels (so far) so i'm not going to need them. On the other hand, the last time i thought i had everything it didn't go so well with all the expanding since then.
Sorry, I meant 20 tower pieces. I was in a hurry :P