Author Topic: Carcassonne CSG: Complete Strategy Guide  (Read 26068 times)

Offline danisthirty

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Carcassonne CSG: Complete Strategy Guide
« on: January 06, 2015, 06:03:19 AM »
There are lots of Carcassonne strategy guides etc available on the internet but these are mostly very basic so I wondered how deep something like this might go.

Although it seems to be frowned upon by many Carcassonne players, I have always felt that tile-counting is an important skill if you want to be able to play competitively against strong opposition. I’ve learnt from experience what tiles exist and how many of them there are in the basic game, but I struggle to keep track of them throughout the game such that I could tell you what tiles are left in the bag at any point. I’m sure that the best players are able to do exactly this though, and what’s more they will almost certainly use this knowledge to determine how they place their tiles in order to maximise the probability of their features being completed (or ensuring that their opponents features aren’t). I have quite a mathematical mind so I’d be very interested in reading some of the theory behind how such decisions can be made, if indeed this is something that can be taught/ learnt rather than merely inspired by natural ability.

I wonder if anyone here would be interested in contributing towards a Carcassonne Central Strategy Guide or whether it would be too much effort for little reward?

Linkback: https://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=1415.0

Offline Decar

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Re: Carcassonne CSG: Complete Strategy Guide
« Reply #1 on: January 06, 2015, 07:49:43 AM »
There's no doubt being aware of the number of remaining tiles is important.  I consider it a core mechanic to the game.  If you've ever asked: 

I could really do with a such and such tile; you're at the first step...you're identifying importance.  The next step is: identifying if other tiles for-fill the same need.  You're on your way to determining a likelihood of that tile being pulled.

Most of these steps are obvious when told - the skill come from balancing them correctly.

I think there's definitely some benefit in a Strategy Guide, but I think the most benefit to a Strategy Guide would be in writing it!

Offline SRBO

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Re: Carcassonne CSG: Complete Strategy Guide
« Reply #2 on: January 06, 2015, 08:16:26 AM »
I wonder if anyone here would be interested in contributing towards a Carcassonne Central Strategy Guide or whether it would be too much effort for little reward?

If everyone contributes little pieces and 1 guys puts it nicely together we can have a nice guide without much effort!

Offline danisthirty

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Re: Carcassonne CSG: Complete Strategy Guide
« Reply #3 on: January 06, 2015, 08:35:29 AM »
I wonder if anyone here would be interested in contributing towards a Carcassonne Central Strategy Guide or whether it would be too much effort for little reward?

If everyone contributes little pieces and 1 guys puts it nicely together we can have a nice guide without much effort!

I don't know how it would be best to put it together but my initial thinking is that a good starting point would be to identify some individual elements and then let people claim whatever's available if they're interested in contributing it. Completed elements could then be posted back to the forum and any additional tactics/ recommendations could be added by others and included in it wherever necessary. Then all the elements would be combined together into an overall strategy guide, with some editorial control being handed over to whoever compiles it all.

I don't know what these individual elements could be but I could easily grab some of my previously written thoughts regarding "trapping" tactics and post them here as an example?

Any thoughts?

Offline jungleboy

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Re: Carcassonne CSG: Complete Strategy Guide
« Reply #4 on: January 06, 2015, 08:51:39 AM »
Any thoughts?

I don't know.  :-\

It would be cool to have a strategy guide, for sure. But do we need to consider this within the wider context of what Carcassonne Central is and how a strategy guide would fit into that concept? By which I mean: if one of the main purposes of Carcassonne Central is holding competitions against each other - and it seems as though we are starting to head in that direction - should we have a uniform strategy guide that everyone can refer to and use in head-to-head matchups?

Also, if we have a good strategy guide, then maybe we will start destroying our real-life Carcassonne friends in our real-life games and then they won't want to be our friends anymore.  :( Edit: Although we could also show the guide to them to improve their own play ... but then we're back at the same situation we would be here in the leagues, which could be everyone using the same strategy and the games becoming predictable.

Offline danisthirty

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Re: Carcassonne CSG: Complete Strategy Guide
« Reply #5 on: January 06, 2015, 09:15:18 AM »
I had similar thoughts regarding what the impact of a strategy guide may be on the competitive side of things. My personal feeling was that I probably give enough of my secrets and preferred tactics away just by playing people and therefore that this wouldn't be too damaging! After all, you and many others know that I'll usually try to "trap" everyone else's meeples wherever possible just as I know that MrNumbers and Jere like to do the same.

I suppose it's a question of giving things away rather than letting others learn them for themselves from experience, but since it would in theory be a collaborative project it stands to reason that most people will retain their usual playing style without necessarily subscribing to the entire body of tactics suggested by the community as a whole.

EDIT: I should also add that although the tournaments and online play are increasingly becoming a feature of Carcassonne Central, I think the main draw will always be the CAR, the library of free fan-made expansions and these forums
« Last Edit: January 06, 2015, 09:18:20 AM by danisthirty »

Offline Decar

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Re: Carcassonne CSG: Complete Strategy Guide
« Reply #6 on: January 06, 2015, 09:23:05 AM »

Also, if we have a good strategy guide, then maybe we will start destroying our real-life Carcassonne friends in our real-life games and then they won't want to be our friends anymore.  :(

Regardless of Strategy Guides, I know I'll always be rubbish.

@danthirsty - I'd argue that sharing secrets will allow an expert to develop better skills when old tricks stop working.  Hopefully, it would develop less experienced players so,  overall the game play continues to be innovative and challenging.

But that's easy for me to say, I've got nothing to lose :p

Offline danisthirty

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Re: Carcassonne CSG: Complete Strategy Guide
« Reply #7 on: January 06, 2015, 09:32:54 AM »

Also, if we have a good strategy guide, then maybe we will start destroying our real-life Carcassonne friends in our real-life games and then they won't want to be our friends anymore.  :(

Regardless of Strategy Guides, I know I'll always be rubbish.

@danthirsty - I'd argue that sharing secrets will allow an expert to develop better skills when old tricks stop working.  Hopefully, it would develop less experienced players so,  overall the game play continues to be innovative and challenging.

But that's easy for me to say, I've got nothing to lose :p

You're not a rubbish player by any stretch of the imagination. You played an excellent game against jungleboy a few weeks ago and he's destroyed me on plenty of occasions! Whilst this in itself doesn't mean you're not "rubbish" per se, it does mean you're of a similar standard to the rest of us here i.e. not quite as good as MrNumbers and Carcking but not 100 miles away when the right tiles come up!

@danthirsty  ::)

I suppose it depends on your definition of "secret". I can't think of anything I do that I would consider secret during a game of Carcassonne ( ;)) that wouldn't be fairly obvious to my opponent. Maybe I'm just more transparent than others though!
« Last Edit: January 06, 2015, 09:37:19 AM by danisthirty »

Offline obervet

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Re: Carcassonne CSG: Complete Strategy Guide
« Reply #8 on: January 06, 2015, 09:40:40 AM »
I think a strategy guide is a good idea. I actually had a thought of putting something like this together some time ago, but it never got close enough to the top of the To-Do list to actually get done. However, I have collected a lot of the words and wisdom of various people here and on other websites (with appropriate attributions) into a doc file (or maybe more than 1). At this point it's not very organized other than some headers. It also may not all be wisdom, since there's a few of my own things in there, too. In any event, I'd be happy to email the files to whoever wants to be point person for the project (danisthirty?). 

Offline Carcking

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Re: Carcassonne CSG: Complete Strategy Guide
« Reply #9 on: January 06, 2015, 11:50:34 AM »
I may not partake in certain strategies from such a guide  - but I find it valuable to recognize that my opponent may be using some tactic that I otherwise would not have known about. I think that's the revelation that can come from such a resource - know thy opponent.
I just drew the perfect tile for my MonKnighThieFarmer!

Offline SRBO

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Re: Carcassonne CSG: Complete Strategy Guide
« Reply #10 on: January 06, 2015, 01:15:31 PM »
I think with the amount of strategies, possibilities, and the changes in strategy per expansion makes it very hard to really become pro in every situation. and to know all of them..


And for friends, you can always play, below your REAL experience level ;) haha
I for one, are really interressted in a strategy guide, Not to make myself a ultimate pro, but that i get more tips..i think there really are too much strategies, (which makes it so intressting)

Offline jungleboy

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Re: Carcassonne CSG: Complete Strategy Guide
« Reply #11 on: January 06, 2015, 01:47:51 PM »
OK, it seems like everyone who has responded so far is on board with a strategy guide, so I'll support it too. I just wanted to make sure we thought about it a little bit before rushing into it.

Offline Decar

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Re: Carcassonne CSG: Complete Strategy Guide
« Reply #12 on: January 06, 2015, 01:55:36 PM »
@danthirsty  ::)

I suppose it depends on your definition of "secret". I can't think of anything I do that I would consider secret during a game of Carcassonne ( ;)) that wouldn't be fairly obvious to my opponent. Maybe I'm just more transparent than others though!

You're too kind Dan, and I can't believe I typed that, because I honestly remember mistyping it and pressing backspace.  Perhaps you are thirsty for something :p

Perhaps, strategy guide is the wrong term to use.  I know as a newbie player there are a lot of variants and rules to take on board.  I think such a project should start small, perhaps more of an 'introductory guide' to the strategy beyond the rules.

Offline danisthirty

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Re: Carcassonne CSG: Complete Strategy Guide
« Reply #13 on: January 06, 2015, 03:47:59 PM »
OK, it seems like everyone who has responded so far is on board with a strategy guide, so I'll support it too. I just wanted to make sure we thought about it a little bit before rushing into it.

I think you were right to bring to light your reservations but I think with a game like Carcassonne there will always be enough room for judgement and the luck of the draw to make games interesting even if we do put together an ultimate and perfect strategy guide that everyone always wants to follow.

I'm very happy to take this on and go ahead with it, but if anyone else has any specific ideas they would like to discuss or particularly wants to make this their own then I'm not precious about it and am equally happy to let them run with it...?

Offline Scott

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Re: Carcassonne CSG: Complete Strategy Guide
« Reply #14 on: January 06, 2015, 07:25:32 PM »
I think this project is a good idea.

One idea that comes to mind that should be covered is the mentality of maximizing your points versus minimizing the points of your opponents. There was a good article along these lines in one of Dan's newsletters.

With regards to some of the concerns expressed above, I think there are two types of strategies which can be covered in a strategy guide. The first type of strategies are those which are beneficial to everyone. The second type of strategies are those which only benefit a certain play-style. What I mean by this, is that there is more than one way to win. Some people are all about farming, other people are all about cities. What should your strategy be if you want to win with cities? What should your strategy be if somebody else wants to win with cities? Others might argue that you need to diversify your interests. How long should I wait until I start thinking about putting down farmers? How many followers should I keep available in case I draw a cloister?

I think a "complete" strategy guide should offer advice on multiple ways to win, not just a single "best" way, because I don't think there is only one best way.


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