Author Topic: The Phantom and Wheel of Fortune  (Read 12871 times)

Offline MrNumbers

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The Phantom and Wheel of Fortune
« on: June 27, 2013, 06:47:15 AM »
First of all, I am glad that forums are up again. Thanks, Gantry and Scott, for that! :D

I have some questions regarding the latest purchased expansion "The Phantom":
When we played it with WoF, question arose about does it permitted to place a phantom to a crown of WoF, even if a player deployed a follower on a placed tile in his turn? We played as he does, but now I started to doubt that. From one side rules say "After placing a tile, the player may deploy the phantom to it as a second follower (on a second feature)". So, crowns aren't located at the placed tile. But WoF rules say "If a player has not placed a follower on a land tile, he or she may place one follower on any free crown space on the Wheel of Fortune." Phantom is a leader in the count of exceptions and it's rules break many other normal rules, maybe here is the similar case?
And the second question: can I place a Phantom on top of a tower to close it? If yes, can it be done only on a tile just being placed? (e.g. place a tile with a tower foundation, place a tower piece (capture follower), and close tower with a phantom).

Linkback: https://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=286.0
« Last Edit: June 29, 2013, 05:23:36 AM by MrNumbers »
"I never lose. Either I win or I learn." (Nelson Mandela)

Offline Carcking

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Re: The Phantom and Wheel of Fortune
« Reply #1 on: June 27, 2013, 09:09:34 AM »
I think when exercising the Phantom's power (deploying him as a second follower) you follow the rule that he must be deployed to a feature on the just placed tile. Then you get to the defition of a "feature":
"A "feature" is an aspect of a tile (with or without a figure on the aspect) that triggers an action or function."

The WoF could not be considered a feature as it has no presence on the tile. The tower would be considered a feature because it is on the tile and has a function.

When not exercising the Phantom's power he may be deployed anywhere that a regular follower may deployed.
I just drew the perfect tile for my MonKnighThieFarmer!

Offline BT

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Re: The Phantom and Wheel of Fortune
« Reply #2 on: June 28, 2013, 03:09:18 AM »
I agree with Carcking.

We always play the phantom on the tile placed only.

Offline obervet

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Re: The Phantom and Wheel of Fortune
« Reply #3 on: June 28, 2013, 09:19:49 AM »
I'm going to play devil's advocate on this one, because I'm not convinced that it has a cut-and-dried answer. (Okay, no more cliches.  ;) ) When reading the rules themselves, I agree with the above responses, that the only mentions are of placement to the tile itself. However, check out footnote 363 of Standard CAR 6.3 (p. 119):

Quote
You have a second separate placement phase, independent from the first placement phase, immediately after the first placement phase. You can do whatever you can do with a follower. You can choose a different target/action, of course.

The bolding is my addition here, but this implies to me that the placement of the Phantom really isn't restricted to the tile that was just played. Rather, it seems that the Phantom is a full follower, with all of the rights, privileges, and responsibilities that that entails. Thus, I would argue that you CAN put a Phantom on a tower or on the WoF.

Offline Carcking

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Re: The Phantom and Wheel of Fortune
« Reply #4 on: June 28, 2013, 01:31:33 PM »
...check out footnote 363 of Standard CAR 6.3 (p. 119):
Quote
You have a second separate placement phase, independent from the first placement phase, immediately after the first placement phase. You can do whatever you can do with a follower. You can choose a different target/action, of course.

...Rather, it seems that the Phantom is a full follower, with all of the rights, privileges, and responsibilities that that entails. Thus, I would argue that you CAN put a Phantom on a tower or on the WoF.

Hmm...good food for thought. Here's my take. Tower - yes, WoF - no. That foot note does add clarity but does not necessarily override the original rules of the Phantom...that he is played as a second follower on a second "feature" on the tile. The fact that he has the characteristics of a normal follower implies he may be placed on a tower for example, or be used as a flier, or be used as a farmer, and so on. It distinguishes him from other atypical followers such as the wagon, mayor, etc. which have limited abilities.

But I agree that if you use the phantom as your first wood move (without exercising the phantom power) then you can use him as you could a regular follower.

I think it comes to whether we want to take liberties or get a clarification on the actual Phantom rules.

Offline kettlefish

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Re: The Phantom and Wheel of Fortune
« Reply #5 on: June 28, 2013, 01:41:47 PM »
The footnote 363 S-CAR 6.3 looks like Christian H. answered this.
When he was asking HiG by email (maybe 2 years ago) and got an answer from HiG...
What can I say... Sometimes it is not easy to understand what they (HiG) like to say with their answers...

And we didn't have the clear definition about a "feature". That was the biggest problem...

At the Spiel 2013 I will have an appointment with HiG - Georg Wild.


Offline Carcking

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Re: The Phantom and Wheel of Fortune
« Reply #6 on: June 28, 2013, 09:58:12 PM »
You know, I was thinking wrongly. I was imagining playing a tile with a tower foundation on it and that somehow giving you the opportunity to put a follower on a tower. Obviously, that is wrong. The correct method is you can play any tile and put a follower on any tower as your wood move. Being able to put a follower on a tower has nothing to do with the tile you play. In that sense the tower is much like the WoF in that having a feature on the tile you play is not a requirement for being able to deploy your follower to either a tower or the WoF.

So I have to change my statement from the earlier post to: Tower - no, WoF - no. If the phantom is limited to a feature on the played tile then the phantom cannot be deployed to a tower or the WoF as the second follower deployment.

Offline MrNumbers

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Re: The Phantom and Wheel of Fortune
« Reply #7 on: June 29, 2013, 05:22:52 AM »
Still we need an official confirmation from HiG.
As for the situation I described earlier:
Quote
place a tile with a tower foundation, place a tower piece [on that tile] (capture follower), and close [that] tower with a phantom
all in one turn, is it possible by your, Carcking, interpretation? In this situation Phantom is placed on a tile just being placed and all the rules are followed.

Offline Carcking

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Re: The Phantom and Wheel of Fortune
« Reply #8 on: June 29, 2013, 02:29:42 PM »
Still we need an official confirmation from HiG.
As for the situation I described earlier:
Quote
place a tile with a tower foundation, place a tower piece [on that tile] (capture follower), and close [that] tower with a phantom
all in one turn, is it possible by your, Carcking, interpretation? In this situation Phantom is placed on a tile just being placed and all the rules are followed.

Hmm..this IS an interesting scenario. It would seem to follow all the rules. But I agree that we need an official clarification from HiG on where the phantom may be deployed as the "second" follower.

Here's another one that I just thought of. If you place a tile and place a bridge over an adjacent tile, can you deploy a follower on the tile and then deploy the phantom on the adjacent bridge? The bridge is not on the just played tile so it would seem to bend the rule of having to deploy the phantom on a second feature of the just played tile.

Offline obervet

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Re: The Phantom and Wheel of Fortune
« Reply #9 on: July 16, 2013, 09:14:00 AM »
Here's another one that I just thought of. If you place a tile and place a bridge over an adjacent tile, can you deploy a follower on the tile and then deploy the phantom on the adjacent bridge? The bridge is not on the just played tile so it would seem to bend the rule of having to deploy the phantom on a second feature of the just played tile.

I don't think this Phantom placement would be allowed, since the original follower wouldn't have been allowed on that bridge (as long as it's on a different tile). Realistically, it seems like there are two possibilities for the answer to the Phantom Placement question: 1) The Phantom can go anywhere that a normal follower could, or 2) The Phantom can only be deployed to the tile that was just placed.

Offline Fritz_Spinne

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Re: The Phantom and Wheel of Fortune
« Reply #10 on: July 16, 2013, 11:03:27 AM »
I think, all three conditions have to be fullfilled:

1) The Phantom can go anywhere that a normal follower could.
2) The Phantom can only be deployed to the tile that was just placed.
3) The Phantom as second follower can not be placed on a feature, the first follower was placed on.

Though the German rules are not clear 
Quote
Auf die Karte oder auf die Bruecke kann (nach normalen Regeln) ein Gefolgsmann eingesetzt werden.
The RGG Rules are clear:
Quote
If he (the player) places the bridge on the just-layed tile, he may place a follower on the bridge instead of the tile, if it is otherwise legal.
.

So I think the S-CAR 6,3 is right: you can only place the follower (or the phantom) on the bridge, if the bridge is on the just-layed tile.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2013, 11:34:09 AM by Fritz_Spinne »

Offline kettlefish

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Re: The Phantom and Wheel of Fortune
« Reply #11 on: July 16, 2013, 11:14:18 AM »
Though the German rules are not clear 
Quote
Auf die Karte oder auf die Br
Fritz_Spinne,

your post is not complete, because the forum at CarcC don't like the Umlaut since the swichover from one to another server.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2013, 11:19:38 AM by kettlefish »

Offline Fritz_Spinne

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Re: The Phantom and Wheel of Fortune
« Reply #12 on: July 16, 2013, 11:36:15 AM »
Quote
your post is not complete, because the forum at CarcC don't like the Umlaut

I corrected it without Umlaut. I made a preview and all the text was there, I will try it again with a few Umlauten:

Here follow the Umlauts for Ae, Oe, Ue, ae, oe. ue and the sharp ss:

Again they got lost ...
« Last Edit: July 16, 2013, 11:38:48 AM by Fritz_Spinne »


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