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1
Guys, you are the best. Really! I like that we already found out, that there will be a couple of problems with existing rules. The Pandora's Box with those double and half tiles better shouldn't have been opend at all...  ;D

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General / Re: Thoughts on converting C2 tiles to C1 artwork style
« on: August 10, 2017, 04:33:07 PM »
I thought this post of yours meant that it was already settled:

You even can use the version with the gardens of the approved Abbot conversion. By the way I want to pay credit to CarcF member Violet, who created these wonderful gardens some time ago.

And just so everyone knows, I did send Violet a polite request via PM on CarcF on August 7, but have not yet received a reply.

Oh, no.  I'm so sorry, Just a Bill. Actually this was intended as answer to the question you raised some posts before:
3. As you can see above, I have already replaced my weak attempt at creating a Carc-I garden with one of the excellent new gardens from the officially approved Abbot conversion. Do you think it would be acceptable to post that version to the CarcF forum?
I'm really sorry that I used such a bad wording, which created such a misunderstanding.  :@

Maybe Violet replies on the weekend. Quite often CarcF is quite silent during the week, but on weekends people start writing and responding.  ;D

3
General / Re: Thoughts on converting C2 tiles to C1 artwork style
« on: August 09, 2017, 10:52:18 AM »
Just a Bill, this is a good question. I'm going to ask it also on CarcF...

However, it was not my intention to confirm that we were allowed to use the garden for our own work. I said you should ask Violet, if he has anything against your usage of them. At least this is what I ment the other post.  :(y)

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Looking forward to seeing how much the signed ones go on eBay for... ::)
Oh, yes. I second that!
Probably they will come from the lot labeled "Sorry, limited. We can't give a way some copies for the two forums."  8)

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General / Re: Thoughts on converting C2 tiles to C1 artwork style
« on: August 08, 2017, 07:31:16 AM »
Please send me the links to these "stolen" expansions - I would like to make things clear. I cannot find any, all was fixed after our discussion over PMs.

It is really rude to abuse someone without any evidence!!! @Decar @danisthirty So give me the evidence or dont say these s**** publicly.

No need for bad words here, I guess. Here are the two expansions in question. Granted, you deleted one of them. The other one is still there. Shall everyone evaluate on their own, if this was using PresetM's graphics without permission or creating a completely new expansion.

Quote from: PresetM on CarcF post_id=48527 time=1501985227 user_id=114
Hier mal schnell noch eine andere Sache.

Ich möchte Euch diese beiden Perlen aus dem tschechischen Forum nicht vorenthalten.
Nachfolgend geht es um die 10. Erweiterung:

https://www.carcassonneforum.cz/thread-1352.html

Auf Seite 2 habe ich mal angefragt, wie es denn mit der Genehmigung von HiG dafür sei, die Antworten sprechen für sich selbst.

Und hier klaut man frech meine Graphik der Wachtürme und macht daraus ebenfalls eine Erweiterung (in völlig mieser Graphik übrigens):

https://www.carcassonneforum.cz/thread-1214-post-10045.html#pid10045

Auch hier geben die Antworten (u.a. vom Administrator) einen tiefen Einblick in das Rechtsverständnis der tschechischen Carcassonne-Freunde.

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General / Re: Thoughts on converting C2 tiles to C1 artwork style
« on: August 08, 2017, 07:20:32 AM »
since we are still missing other parts of the expansion (e.g. circus tokens) and the rules, the project can't be finished yet.

The circus tokens are an interesting point of discussion. I am not a fan of the Carc artwork change in general, but in this particular case I was planning to use the actual circus tokens from MF/UtBT with my converted tiles, for three reasons.

(1) I want the tokens to be clearly indistinguishable from each other, since they must be drawn blindly. If I made homebrews they probably would not appear identical from the back and I would need yet another bag (ick).

(2) Mixing in a small amount of new art from these particular tokens does not offend my amateur and feeble artistic sensibilities. I guess this is for two reasons. First, the backs are pretty generic and the fronts are a series of large animals that have no counterpart in the classic game. And second, neither the fronts nor the backs remain visible on the map. Only one back is in play at a time and it's covered up by the big top figure, and a front is visible only long enough to score the animal and then it's removed.* So having the "wrong" art style on these tokens would actually be better than using a C-II tower or a C-II scoreboard, and even those wouldn't kill it for me. It's tile mixing :P that destroys the game's beauty, because that's what we stand back and admire at the end of the game. Everything else can be seen as just a temporary prop in building that gorgeous map.

(3) We already need the ringmasters and the big top, so requiring ownership of the tokens places no additional "burden" on the player. And honestly, thinking about the publisher's perspective, it's a good thing to encourage or even require players to buy the actual physical product. If sales of C-II products start dropping off because a bunch of players are always just downloading the "free old-art versions," then HiG may stop allowing the conversions to take place. I'd rather spend the US $17.99 on Under the Big Top (even though I have no use for the tiles) and encourage others to do the same, to help ensure that Carcassonne continues in good health and that artists who have proven their skill are allowed to keep converting to the C-I art style everything that I will care about in the future.

Has this been discussed on CarcF?


* As a game designer, I don't really like the fiddliness of putting the circus tokens on the board. You could just as easily flip one over from the stack when a circus needs to be scored and call it a day. They could have been tiles, or mini playing cards, or even a par of special dice to join the ranks of the flying machine die. I suppose maybe the on-board placement might bump up the tension for some players just a bit, or it might help the few who could maybe forget where the just-placed circus was while they're resolving the previous one ... but in general it feels like busy-work because it's not necessary for gameplay. And once those tokens have received some wear, having one sit out on the table may start to work against the need to have its value remain hidden.

Quite interesting points, indeed! As far as I can say, the resentments against Carc II on CarcF are much stronger then here. So sometimes using any part that is not Doris Matthäus artwork is considered a sacrilege. I personally don't like the animals much, because for me "Circus" has nothing to do with the epoch of the game, so I also like the idea of creating more appropriate tokens.

I also will buy Vanilla Carc II and Manege frei!, if I make classic Carc Versions of the Abbot and the 10th expansion. This for sure. Because I agree in the point, that we should support the publisher with his games, if he gives us the possibility to convert his expansions (and also because I need the wood pieces). Though, I'm not sure if the classic download version of Manege frei! can really replace buying the expansion, with or without the tokens. One will always have to buy the game if one wants the wooden pieces. Cundco doesn't give them away separately...

7
General / Re: Thoughts on converting C2 tiles to C1 artwork style
« on: August 07, 2017, 08:25:25 AM »
I have now seen the low-res PDF of Philipp's proposed tileset. My first reaction was that it needed more variety; the tents are red and blue on every tile, and all the tiles of each type (circus or acrobat) have the exact same elements.

But then I realized I was looking at this through the biased lens of the C-II circus tiles and my own conversion tests. Pure classic C-I often does not use a lot of variety from tile to tile. Now things like cities, roads, and ferries do have a lot of variations, of course, but the closest thematic comparisons for the circus are of course found in Catapult and BC&B, where we find that every fair is identical and every bazaar is identical. So in that sense, Philipp's work is a nice compromise — his tiles have a strong feeling of regularity but he does mix around the placement of the elements. And perhaps that is just the right approach?
These were exactly our thoughts. We had other more diverse and colourful versions before, but when comparing them to other classic Carc tiles, we found out that they didn't fit at all. So we tried to find out about the true character of classic Carc tiles and came to the same results as you did.

I'm worried that, once we get the OK from HiG, it might be too late for your ideas to be included.
At first I thought you meant the conversion was finished and waiting approval, but after reading the thread over there that doesn't seem to be the case. Do you just mean that the German community is already "settled" on what the tiles should look like and anxious to finish the conversion? Surely if people felt that adding some flags and barrels was beneficial, it would not be a difficult or time-consuming process.
At first I also thought that the conversion was already finished, but after rereading the related posts I found out that we need two approvals by HiG, one for starting a conversion project and one for publishing the final results. And since we are still missing other parts of the expansion (e.g. circus tokens) and the rules, the project can't be finished yet.

Thank you very much for this information. I will certainly credit Violet for her (is female correct? that would be the norm in this culture, but I do not want to make assumptions and I could not tell from the profile over there) excellent work. In fact, I have just posted a fan-expansion here called Signposts and the Château, which includes one of her beautiful fruit gardens.
To be honest, I also don't know for sure. I always struggle if Violet is a man or a woman. The only thing I can tell you is, that I sent her a parcel once and it was directed to a man. So I guess he would be correct. Still, this also might be the name of her husband...  :o
I guess the best thing would be to ask him/her him-/herself. Then you could also ask if it is ok for him/her if you use the gardens for your own expansions (if you haven't done already). I don't think that Violet would be angry about that, but one never knows... We just had the case that another CarcF member was quite upset that his creations for one of his expansions were used by a person from the Czech Carcassonne Forum without his permission.

8
So the only differences between the two are the signatures and five extra followers (presumably just standard meeples)? I seem to be in the minority here in not understanding the appeal of signed tiles, but I'd rather have the Essen version if I were interested in new art.
Jungleboy, I had the same thoughts as you. After asking on CarcF, I've been told, that the signatures and the five standard mepple will be the only difference (maybe also the package size). So if someone isn't too hyped about signatures and CundCo offers the expansion after the fair, that person will be able to get his own "deluxe" version by ordering five extra standard meeples in addition to the expansion. :D

9
General / Re: Thoughts on converting C2 tiles to C1 artwork style
« on: August 05, 2017, 10:55:13 AM »
Just a Bill, first of all thanks for your long reply!

Unfortunately there is just one error, I have to tell you. Actually, you mixed up the creators of the different tiles.  ;D Chmura is the creative person from the Czech forums. He created the attempt with the watermark "carcassonne cze forum" on it. I referred to that one, when I said that the Fair spaces look to similar to crop fields. The attempt you labelled with Chmuras name in your nice overview is from our member PhilippJConrad. On CarcF also other members tried to create versions, but the trickiest part always was the appearance of the circus ground.

However, you are right, that the circus ground of Philipp's version look very similar to the fair spaces. On the contrary, maybe this is what made his tiles look like original tiles from classic Carc, because it created some kind of uniformity with the catapult spaces and the bazaar spaces. Still, I really like your attempt to. As far as I can see, you used the city grounds and lightened them up, didn't you?

During our discussion first we made tiles, which were similar to the Carc II original, but then compared them to classic Carc tiles and found out that they are way too fussy, so we radically reduced the things on the tiles. Just as you did with the circus grounds too. What I really like are the flags atop your tents and the little barrels! We should really think about trying them on Philipp's tiles too (once we are allowed to do more work on the project...).

You asked, if it would be acceptable to post your image on CarcF, now that the discussion is on hold. I'd say yes. I personally don't consider this as "working on a conversion". For me it is more a general study of material and design on what is a classic Carcassonne tile, and what are its characteristics. :) I'd even go as far as saying that it would be better to post the thoughts made here on CarcF now, in order that other people know what people here came up with and can think about that too. I'm worried that, once we get the OK from HiG, it might be too late for your ideas to be included. As we say in German, we have to "let the ideas ripen" in our heads. If you want, also I can post a summary of the discussion here on CarcF, including your version.

If you want, you can include a German translation, but you don't have too. I personally would do so, since I consider it being very polite, but no one on CarcF expects you to do so. Normally someone else translates (personally or with an online program) a post, if it is only in English. Just the way you did with Seli's post. Don't worry too much about that.  8)

You even can use the version with the gardens of the approved Abbot conversion. By the way I want to pay credit to CarcF member Violet, who created these wonderful gardens some time ago.

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General / Re: Thoughts on converting C2 tiles to C1 artwork style
« on: August 03, 2017, 01:48:48 PM »
I can understand the bitter taste, which the agreement between HiG and CarcF brings to CarcC and you. However, just like Seli (and surely many other members as well on CarcF and CarC) I'm happy that we are allowed to do conversions at all. I agree that it might not be that easy for you to take part on conversion projects on CarcF, but if you want I can try to internationalise as much as possible. I just found out that there is a translation tool on CarcF that allows you to translate everything into English (and other languages as well). Actually it works very well!

Also I've already proposed to create a conversion sub forum where all the discussions about on-going and future conversion projects will be held. So, if we create such a sub forum (and I really hope so and will lobby for it), you know at any time where the hot discussions are going on. ;D

The final documents will be saved in a separate section of the download corner. Seli already gave you the link. Here it is again.

Also for me it is quite sad, that Just a Bill's great attempt of converting the 10th expansion was not taken into account until now. Unfortunately this is what happens when discussions go on on two different platforms at the same time. So maybe the centralisation of conversion projects on CarcF also can be a chance to funnel al the creativity and the ideas of all of us in order to create a high quality expansion.

At the moment the discussions on that specific translation project has been stopped because we have to wait for the permission from HiG. The publisher will hold a strategic meeting in September, where they probably will discuss if we are allowed to convert the 10th expansion for classic Carcassonne or not. What I want to say is that it is still not too late! All of you, who want to have a word in the discussion, still can take part. The discussion will go on once we have the permission from HiG. Here is the link to the topic on CarcF: "Mange frei!" for classic Carcassonne

Just A Bill, if you want, I guess it could be a good idea to also show the file of your conversion attempt on CarcF. Once it is there, people can look at it while we wait for the permission and have it in mind when the discussion starts again.  :yellow-meeple:

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General / Re: Thoughts on converting C2 tiles to C1 artwork style
« on: August 03, 2017, 01:18:56 PM »
Here is a translation of Seli's posts:

Hello to all,
We in the German Forum are happy, that now it is allowed to transfer official expansions at all. PrestM took the trouble to get the authorisation.
Also if CarcF is mostly in German, I think that it is possible to register there for everyone interested. There are enough members that also speak English and surely they will help you with pleasure.
Unfortunately I don't speak any English, I have to rely on "translate.*****.de" [translator's note: No advertising here. :D]. From experience I can say: One can understand the translation.
Therefore, have the courage and look into the Carcassonne-Forum.

Here is the link to Legal notes on the Conversion of expansions from classic Carcassonne to Carcassonne Edition II and vice versa.[t. n.: Only in German].

Here is the Link to the finishd and from HIG approved expansions "The Watchtowers" and "The Abbot"

Lots of fun with them

Greetings Elisabeth

I have copied this topic into the German forum.

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General / Re: Thoughts on converting C2 tiles to C1 artwork style
« on: August 02, 2017, 10:36:28 AM »
PresetM informed me that the agreement is only valid for CarcF, so unfortunately converting expansions somewhere else is considered against the rules. If you want to make conversions also here on CarcC, according to PresetM you need your own agreement with HiG. But he is afraid that HiG might not like to see more than two conversions per half a year, and therefore it might not want to sign a second agreement.

However, both, PresetM and I, would be delighted if you joined the conversion work that will take place on CarcF. Especially if I look at the great work of Just a Bill, I'm sure it would be a pitty, if we missed out on your tallent!

The agreement doesn't say anything about which conversions are included. Sure, the intention was Carc II to classic Carc and vice versa, but it might be interpretet in another way in the future. This is why we paused all conversion projects in any direction at the moment.

Since we have to propose a conversion project to HiG before we are allowed to start the work on it, I guess one proposal for conversion counts as one regardless of the tiles the expansion contains. The publisher already accepted a conversion by PresetM that contained all the Abbot tiles from the new artwork, so I guess if we propose a conversion of the expansion "Spiel tiles", this will be counted as one conversion either.

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General / Re: Thoughts on converting C2 tiles to C1 artwork style
« on: July 31, 2017, 03:23:08 PM »
Hi guys,

I just found out about your converting discussion here. Several weeks ago CarcF could stipulate an agreement with HiG about doing conversions between classic Carc and Carc II. Beforehand we had a long discussion if we could comit a copyright infringement when we convert real expansions, especially if we talk about big ones. So in order to be on the safe side PresetM negotiated an agreement with HiG.

It consists of eight points and you can find it here (unfortunatlely only in German and for registered users) if you want to read it. The most important point is that we are only allowed to do two conversions per half year and have to inform HiG about our conversion plans. Also the final version of the expansion has to be approved by the publisher. There are even some restraints on where the expansions can be downloaded afterwards and where we are allowed to create them. At the moment I'm not sure if the agreement also includes conversions done here on CarcC, but I'm afraid the publisher only wants to see conversion projects on CarcF.

I just wanted to inform you, in order that CarcC is on the safe side. I wouldn't like it if we got problems with HiG.

Nevertheless, congrats to your great conversion attempts Just a Bill! They look gorgeous! Also congrats to CarcCZ member Chmura for his attempt (also if the squares look a bit too corn fieldish for me  ;) ) I also uploaded what came out during the conversion discussion on CarcF.

If it is really the case that HiG only allows conversion projects on CarcF, I'd love to see all you creative heads, who are interested in helping to do a high quality job (another condition in the agreement), on CarcF!

14
General / Re: I love the postman...
« on: April 30, 2017, 06:23:37 PM »
Will do. We are walking the Camino de Santiago starting late next month so I'm going to bring them along. First I have to decide which 8 to bring in the pod. I'll probably leave out Box (themeless) and maybe Woo. The ones I'm most looking forward to are Boo, Orc and Rum. And hopefully Nut and Dig will be fun for junglegirl.

Buen Camino, Jungleboy and Junglegirl. Ultreïa!

Just maybe don't play too much with your new games, else you might miss out on the fantastic camino experience. ;)

15
News and Events / Re: HiG/CundCo - Easter Action 2017
« on: April 06, 2017, 07:30:26 PM »
Ry4Christ: I'm hoping with you! Still, I doubt they really will do that... :(

Actually I'm not super sad that there is no Easter Promotion this year. Now that there won't be any classic Carcassonne minis anymore and since I owe everything I wanted from the stuff CundCo sells, another promo would have meant buying stuff I don't need, only to save shipment costs. :D

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