Carcassonne Central

Carc Central Community => Official Rules => Topic started by: obervet on May 29, 2014, 08:06:01 AM

Title: Complete Annotated Rules v. 7.0, 2nd printing
Post by: obervet on May 29, 2014, 08:06:01 AM
Based on feedback from the v. 7.0 thread, I have made a few minimal changes to the CAR. There have been no content changes, so I kept the version number the same. (Okay, I call it 7.0.1 myself, but you won't see that anywhere in the document itself.) Thus, don't feel obligated to download this one if you already have the original v. 7.0. (But I know you will anyway.)

Changes are:
Added version number and date to title page
Corrected image errors in the Glossary
Corrected a few duplicate word typos

You can get it here:

http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?action=downloads;sa=view;down=251 (http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?action=downloads;sa=view;down=251)
Title: Re: Complete Annotated Rules v. 7.0, 2nd printing
Post by: Whaleyland on May 29, 2014, 12:09:45 PM
I love the new material. Very well done! I've already given you a merit for it on the other thread.

I have one suggestion regarding "The German Monasteries." I think the expansion should be more literally translated as "The Monasteries in Germany" because I believe there will be other expansions with similar titles through the coming years (e.g., "The Monasteries in France", "The Monasteries in Spain," etc.). It would make more sense to keep the title "The Monasteries [in place]" so that as future expansions based on the same rules come out, they can be added to this section. Just a thought, but I think it would make more sense in the long run and show greater consistency. It also sticks to the original German translation of the name better. (Officially, the expansion name is only "Die Kloester" in all promotional material except the actual rules, which adds "in Deutschland".)
Title: Re: Complete Annotated Rules v. 7.0, 2nd printing
Post by: Carcking on May 29, 2014, 04:28:55 PM
Excellent point whaley! Good catch!
Title: Re: Complete Annotated Rules v. 7.0, 2nd printing
Post by: kettlefish on May 29, 2014, 08:46:10 PM
The correct German name is:
"Kloester in Deutschland" = "Monasteries in Germany"
Title: Re: Complete Annotated Rules v. 7.0, 2nd printing
Post by: obervet on May 30, 2014, 10:52:38 AM
For the upcoming version of the CAR (seems a little depressing to already be thinking about that), I have changed the name of the expansion to "Monasteries in Germany". The features themselves are still referred to as German Monasteries (as in "I put a follower on the German Monastery").
Title: Re: Complete Annotated Rules v. 7.0, 2nd printing
Post by: Whaleyland on May 30, 2014, 11:05:26 AM
Why don't the figures simply go on the "Monastery" (rather than the "German Monastery")? That would anticipate future problems. Assuming you still use the term "Cloister" for the earlier iterations of the feature, I don't see any conflict with the term "Monastery" here.
Title: Re: Complete Annotated Rules v. 7.0, 2nd printing
Post by: rfielder on June 02, 2014, 10:17:13 AM
For the upcoming version of the CAR (seems a little depressing to already be thinking about that), I have changed the name of the expansion to "Monasteries in Germany". The features themselves are still referred to as German Monasteries (as in "I put a follower on the German Monastery").
That does make more sense than "I put a follower on the Monastery in Germany", which can be misinterpreted in a couple of ways. 

Not that I would object to an opportunity to play a game in Germany, but.....
Title: Re: Complete Annotated Rules v. 7.0, 2nd printing
Post by: Carcking on June 02, 2014, 06:07:37 PM
Not that I would object to an opportunity to play a game in Germany, but.....

;)   :(y)
Title: Re: Complete Annotated Rules v. 7.0, 2nd printing
Post by: Paul on June 05, 2014, 06:05:45 AM
Small errata in S-CAR v7.0.pdf found.  O:-)

On page 111, second unordered list that starts with "As a town which is converted..."

The second sentence has "a when" on it: "In this case, a when one of the castles..."

 :meeple:
Title: Re: Complete Annotated Rules v. 7.0, 2nd printing
Post by: obervet on June 16, 2014, 07:26:24 AM
Why don't the figures simply go on the "Monastery" (rather than the "German Monastery")? That would anticipate future problems. Assuming you still use the term "Cloister" for the earlier iterations of the feature, I don't see any conflict with the term "Monastery" here.

Because the CAR is internally consistent (I think), you are absolutely right -- use of the "German" part is redundant. The reason I kept it in there is because the ZMG version of the rules refers to all cloisters as monasteries, so it might be confusing to newer users who call the base version of the feature a monastery, as they wouldn't necessarily understand the historical context.

If/when we get monasteries from other countries, I'll have to go back and figure out what I want to do with those mentions.

Title: Re: Complete Annotated Rules v. 7.0, 2nd printing
Post by: obervet on June 16, 2014, 07:28:04 AM
Small errata in S-CAR v7.0.pdf found.  O:-)

On page 111, second unordered list that starts with "As a town which is converted..."

The second sentence has "a when" on it: "In this case, a when one of the castles..."

 :meeple:

Corrected. Thanks!
Title: Re: Complete Annotated Rules v. 7.0, 2nd printing
Post by: Scott on June 21, 2014, 07:11:57 AM
If I recall correctly, in German both features are called klosteren (plural form of kloster). The only difference is that the "klosteren in Deutschland" have the added ability to place a follower as an abbot. Theoretically you could house rule place abbots on regular cloisters too. That being said, I like the distinction of cloisters referring to the ones we've known and loved since 2000 and monasteries referring to what will hopefully become a series of regional mini-expansions.
Title: Re: Complete Annotated Rules v. 7.0, 2nd printing
Post by: Joaquim00 on June 22, 2014, 09:28:41 AM
Two little comments:

A:
page 16 footnote 12:
'features are considered to be complete as soon as the tile is placed' [before follower placement and scoring]

page 56:
'[using the magic portal,] the follower may not be deployed to a[...] completed feature]'
footnote 148:
'whether it was scored or not'

Therefore
page 84 footnote 272 (repeated in page 89 as footnote 289) is wrong:

"Question: Imagine I have an unoccupied cloister next to an occupied cult place. I place a tile
with a magic portal which completes both buildings, and choose to use the magic portal to deploy a
monk to the cloister. Does this declare a challenge, and if so, who wins?"

The newly completed cloister cannot be occupied using a magic portal, given the interpretation that features are extended/completed at the moment of tile-placement.

B:
page 18 footnote 27: '1 point per road segment'
perhaps change this to something like '1 point per tile that the road occupies', as more than 1 segment of a road can be on the same tile. (Maximally 4 segments on a 4-way-junction tile, with a Catapult 4-way road.)
Title: Re: Complete Annotated Rules v. 7.0, 2nd printing
Post by: obervet on July 06, 2014, 09:49:42 AM
A:
page 16 footnote 12:
'features are considered to be complete as soon as the tile is placed' [before follower placement and scoring]

page 56:
'[using the magic portal,] the follower may not be deployed to a[...] completed feature]'
footnote 148:
'whether it was scored or not'

Therefore
page 84 footnote 272 (repeated in page 89 as footnote 289) is wrong:

"Question: Imagine I have an unoccupied cloister next to an occupied cult place. I place a tile
with a magic portal which completes both buildings, and choose to use the magic portal to deploy a
monk to the cloister. Does this declare a challenge, and if so, who wins?"

The newly completed cloister cannot be occupied using a magic portal, given the interpretation that features are extended/completed at the moment of tile-placement.

That's a good point. All of these are official rules or official clarifications, but there is definitely an internal inconsistency here. One way that it could be cleared up is if the intent of the "already completed" statement is really "completed on a previous turn". That would allow placement of the follower into a feature that was just completed and was just about to be scored, analogous to putting a follower onto a city or road that you just completed on this turn (and then getting the follower right back). Of course, I don't know if that's the actual intent, so I'll have to punt this one to kettlefish to see if she can come up with the final call.

B:
page 18 footnote 27: '1 point per road segment'
perhaps change this to something like '1 point per tile that the road occupies', as more than 1 segment of a road can be on the same tile. (Maximally 4 segments on a 4-way-junction tile, with a Catapult 4-way road.)

Consider it changed. Interesting that that statement has been part of the CAR for 3 days less than forever, but no one has spotted it until now.
Title: Re: Complete Annotated Rules v. 7.0, 2nd printing
Post by: kettlefish on July 06, 2014, 10:31:54 AM
I think that Matt Harper didn't saw the problem of the just finished features and the magic portal: cloister and cult place.

No - the follower can't be placed on that finished cloister.
Title: Re: Complete Annotated Rules v. 7.0, 2nd printing
Post by: obervet on July 08, 2014, 09:50:29 AM
I think that Matt Harper didn't saw the problem of the just finished features and the magic portal: cloister and cult place.

No - the follower can't be placed on that finished cloister.

The relevant footnotes have been updated. I also added another footnote to the magic portal section to re-emphasize the timing of feature completion.
Title: Re: Complete Annotated Rules v. 7.0, 2nd printing
Post by: totor66 on July 09, 2014, 02:58:50 AM
Incredible job that all of you did on those Rules, really impressed.

Keep doing this wonderful job, I was redirected here from BGG and first thing I did was to read almost completely this file :)
Title: Re: Complete Annotated Rules v. 7.0, 2nd printing
Post by: MrNumbers on July 09, 2014, 03:02:34 AM
Incredible job that all of you did on those Rules, really impressed.

Keep doing this wonderful job, I was redirected here from BGG and first thing I did was to read almost completely this file :)

Welcome to the forums, totor66! Apart from the CAR we have many interesting things here :D
Title: Re: Complete Annotated Rules v. 7.0, 2nd printing
Post by: danielbrie on July 16, 2014, 02:16:17 PM
I am here to stay, so I have the original cover for CAR. Any modifications, replacements or move around suggestions are welcomed.
Any ideas anyone?

 :blue-meeple:
Title: Re: Complete Annotated Rules v. 7.0, 2nd printing
Post by: asparagus on July 23, 2014, 03:56:15 AM
I notice in the "any time" portion of the turn play order.

Quote
You may claim an unclaimed tunnel portal by placing a tunnel token on it

I note that it is theoretically possible for this to complete a road that is entirely unrelated to the tile just placed. I presume that step 6 is also immediately executed for this road independently of anything else and this might even happen inside a different step 6.
Title: Re: Complete Annotated Rules v. 7.0, 2nd printing
Post by: Carcking on July 23, 2014, 09:33:42 AM
I notice in the "any time" portion of the turn play order.

Quote
You may claim an unclaimed tunnel portal by placing a tunnel token on it

I note that it is theoretically possible for this to complete a road that is entirely unrelated to the tile just placed. I presume that step 6 is also immediately executed for this road independently of anything else and this might even happen inside a different step 6.

Good catch asparagus.
Title: Re: Complete Annotated Rules v. 7.0, 2nd printing
Post by: obervet on July 24, 2014, 07:20:04 AM
I notice in the "any time" portion of the turn play order.

Quote
You may claim an unclaimed tunnel portal by placing a tunnel token on it

I note that it is theoretically possible for this to complete a road that is entirely unrelated to the tile just placed. I presume that step 6 is also immediately executed for this road independently of anything else and this might even happen inside a different step 6.

I'm not convinced that scoring occurs immediately after completion, since there's no comment in the rules about immediately scoring a completed tunnel road. In fact, immediate scoring could lead to rules abuse. For example, if I have no more followers in my pool, I could place a tile, place a tunnel token to complete a road, score that road, return the follower to my hand, then have a follower to place on the tile that I just played (since we haven't gotten to the move wood phase yet).

Until there is a clarification to the contrary, I would think that a road completed by a tunnel token is scored at the same time as features completed by tile placement -- during the scoring phase. Within that phase, the active player gets to choose what order everything is scored in, and if the tunnel token is placed during the scoring phase, a newly-completed tunnel would just enter the queue to be scored as well.
Title: Re: Complete Annotated Rules v. 7.0, 2nd printing
Post by: Carcking on July 24, 2014, 12:25:16 PM
Until there is a clarification to the contrary, I would think that a road completed by a tunnel token is scored at the same time as features completed by tile placement -- during the scoring phase.

The concern you raise is valid regarding timing, but that may just be a matter of preference. How would you handle the tunnel being completed after the scoring phase if that prescribed opportunity to score has passed? You have to suppose that the tunnel road does get scored if completed after the scoring phase (not just abandoned), so by extension one would reason it could be scored even before the scoring phase. To uphold the definition of "any time".

Regarding the placement of a Flea - it would seem a player could flea his own follower (anytime) in order to have one to place that turn. Also, is there a similar sequence with the Tower if a player ransoms a follower back at anytime? (Although admittedly there is a cost associated with that one.)
Title: Re: Complete Annotated Rules v. 7.0, 2nd printing
Post by: asparagus on July 24, 2014, 03:14:34 PM
I'm not convinced that scoring occurs immediately after completion, since there's no comment in the rules about immediately scoring a completed tunnel road. In fact, immediate scoring could lead to rules abuse. For example, if I have no more followers in my pool, I could place a tile, place a tunnel token to complete a road, score that road, return the follower to my hand, then have a follower to place on the tile that I just played (since we haven't gotten to the move wood phase yet).
The way we used to play tunnels until I started studying the CAR, was that claiming a tunnel was a  move wood action. That would have prevented what you call "abuse". I have no issue either way, but saying claiming a tunnel is a move action makes it more consistent. But I think if you allow that claiming a tunnel end is a free action you have to allow what ever follows from that.

Until there is a clarification to the contrary, I would think that a road completed by a tunnel token is scored at the same time as features completed by tile placement -- during the scoring phase. Within that phase, the active player gets to choose what order everything is scored in, and if the tunnel token is placed during the scoring phase, a newly-completed tunnel would just enter the queue to be scored as well.
What would this allow that would be different from just saying that claiming a tunnel is a move wood action?

How would you handle the tunnel being completed after the scoring phase if that prescribed opportunity to score has passed? You have to suppose that the tunnel road does get scored if completed after the scoring phase (not just abandoned), so by extension one would reason it could be scored even before the scoring phase. To uphold the definition of "any time".
good point

Regarding the placement of a Flea - it would seem a player could flea his own follower (anytime) in order to have one to place that turn. Also, is there a similar sequence with the Tower if a player ransoms a follower back at anytime? (Although admittedly there is a cost associated with that one.)
Actually I was comparing the tower rules with the CAR today. By my reading if a person places a tower, captures an opponent's follower which is immediately swapped for his phantom, then he is free to place that phantom. The key phrase is that the prisoner exchange takes place "immediately and automatically". I take it that this means prisoner exchange takes place during the move wood phase. This contradicts the CAR play order.

Until there is a clarification to the contrary, I would think that a road completed by a tunnel token is scored at the same time as features completed by tile placement -- during the scoring phase. Within that phase, the active player gets to choose what order everything is scored in, and if the tunnel token is placed during the scoring phase, a newly-completed tunnel would just enter the queue to be scored as well.
Actually since Robbers and Dispatches I believe there is a major issue with the way the CAR turn order is constructed. The CAR states that the active player determines the order in which completed features are resolved. That seems reasonable however as far as I can see his decision only impacts the wagon and the school - at least amongst official expansions. The order in which these scores are awarded is potentially quite different. This I think requires a whole new step for score resolution.

Whilst I am at it I am puzzled why a player can activate the festival option and then move the fairy. It's certainly possible but a  bit arbitrary and I don't recall an authoritative statement on that.
Title: Re: Complete Annotated Rules v. 7.0, 2nd printing
Post by: obervet on July 25, 2014, 12:58:51 PM
Until there is a clarification to the contrary, I would think that a road completed by a tunnel token is scored at the same time as features completed by tile placement -- during the scoring phase.

The concern you raise is valid regarding timing, but that may just be a matter of preference. How would you handle the tunnel being completed after the scoring phase if that prescribed opportunity to score has passed? You have to suppose that the tunnel road does get scored if completed after the scoring phase (not just abandoned), so by extension one would reason it could be scored even before the scoring phase. To uphold the definition of "any time".

I would try to make the scoring of the tunnel fit within the remainder of the rules as best as possible. Thus, I would score the tunnel during the scoring phase if I could. If the token was placed after the scoring phase, then you would have to score it immediately, but I would consider that the exception rather than the rule.
Title: Re: Complete Annotated Rules v. 7.0, 2nd printing
Post by: obervet on July 25, 2014, 01:02:27 PM
Regarding the placement of a Flea - it would seem a player could flea his own follower (anytime) in order to have one to place that turn. Also, is there a similar sequence with the Tower if a player ransoms a follower back at anytime? (Although admittedly there is a cost associated with that one.)

I agree that these would be legitimate. The difference with these (compared to the tunnel situation) is that the return of a follower carries a negative cost (no score for the one that was flea'd, a payment for the one that was tower'd).
Title: Re: Complete Annotated Rules v. 7.0, 2nd printing
Post by: obervet on July 25, 2014, 03:25:40 PM
Multiple comments which are not repeated here to save space.

In going back and reading the rules, I think there is actually an argument to be made for tunnel token placement during the Move Wood phase. The rules state that the token may be placed "on the land tile which has just been placed", seemingly indicating that this is after tile placement. It doesn't say that you can't place a token during the scoring phase, but to me it kind of sounds like a Move Wood action that doesn't prevent follower placement.

I don't know that I had ever thought about swapping a regular follower and a phantom after a Tower capture, but it seems that Phantom placement would still be legal, as you would still be in the Move Wood phase. I'll have to tweak the Turn Order.

I don't think I understand your point about order of resolution for scoring. A number of official clarifications indicate that the active player chooses the order that features score (see footnote 444 in CAR 7.0, for example). Is there something in the turn order that contradicts this?

The fairy actually cannot be moved after the Festival is used (see footnote 381, CAR 7.0).

Title: Re: Complete Annotated Rules v. 7.0, 2nd printing
Post by: obervet on July 25, 2014, 03:32:09 PM
The fairy actually cannot be moved after the Festival is used (see footnote 381, CAR 7.0).

Okay, I see that the Turn Order had this wrong. It has been corrected.
Title: Re: Complete Annotated Rules v. 7.0, 2nd printing
Post by: asparagus on July 25, 2014, 10:34:53 PM
I don't think I understand your point about order of resolution for scoring. A number of official clarifications indicate that the active player chooses the order that features score (see footnote 444 in CAR 7.0, for example). Is there something in the turn order that contradicts this?
I am not arguing against the order of completed feature resolution. Rather my point is that with regards to scoring this generates a list of scores:
Quote
green - 2
red - 5
blue - 5
green - 3
blue - 3
With robbers and dispatchers these scores are not simply added to the player's score. Robbers in particular messes with the order. Each receiver of points decides what order to receive in points in. Where they have a choice the robbers must decide which player to rob but they must take the first.
So each player gets the points in the order they decide. Different players will choose differently and hence differently from the active player.

I reckon this can only be accommodated within a new scoring resolution step.

Also dispatches group scores into rounds. Scores generated within one scoring round wait until the next round.

So what does the order of feature completion actually impact. I can only find the wagon and the school.
Title: Re: Complete Annotated Rules v. 7.0, 2nd printing
Post by: asparagus on July 25, 2014, 11:51:05 PM
In going back and reading the rules, I think there is actually an argument to be made for tunnel token placement during the Move Wood phase. The rules state that the token may be placed "on the land tile which has just been placed", seemingly indicating that this is after tile placement. It doesn't say that you can't place a token during the scoring phase, but to me it kind of sounds like a Move Wood action that doesn't prevent follower placement.

It looks to me that this would be sensible and consistent with what we know. I may of course change my mind later.

P.S. I would suggest adding "claim tunnel" as a step 4G with a note that actually it can be any part of step 4. I can see reasons for claiming the tunnel late (for example waiting to see the flier dice roll) but I cannot see any reasons for early tunnel placement better tham "do it now before I forget".
Title: Re: Complete Annotated Rules v. 7.0, 2nd printing
Post by: Carcking on July 26, 2014, 07:10:07 AM
So what does the order of feature completion actually impact. I can only find the wagon and the school.

A few others would be the Castle, collecting Gold and the Messages. There may be others we'll have to think of.

I agree, there is a conflict in the scoring sequence between the current player choosing the sequence vs the Robber being able to decide who to steal points from. If he has to take the first player that scores it seems the active player will dictate who that will be.

So we have:
The Robbers
Gold Mines
The Messages
The Castle
The Wagon
The Teacher

I don't recall how it came to be that all scoring during the scoring phase was not considered simultaneous. If it were the case then such decisions as the Teacher, the Robber, the Castle would be the choice of those players. The Wagon moving, the Messages and collecting Gold is resolved in turn order. Not sure what other mechanics we're not thinking of yet - but they may fall into either of those two categories: players' choice or turn order resolution.

This is all a case for "the active player decides" to be obsoleted, since HiG has challenged the scoring order with the nature of several of the new expansions.

Now I cannot think of a scenario where it is equitable for the active player to decide...

Title: Re: Complete Annotated Rules v. 7.0, 2nd printing
Post by: Carcking on July 26, 2014, 07:25:35 AM
Regarding the placement of a Flea - it would seem a player could flea his own follower (anytime) in order to have one to place that turn. Also, is there a similar sequence with the Tower if a player ransoms a follower back at anytime? (Although admittedly there is a cost associated with that one.)

I agree that these would be legitimate. The difference with these (compared to the tunnel situation) is that the return of a follower carries a negative cost (no score for the one that was flea'd, a payment for the one that was tower'd).

There doesn't have to be an expense to fleaing a follower. It is likely you would only do so if it was beneficial to you, which seems to make is similar to why you would place a tunnel token at any particular time. Perhaps the flead follower was trapped in a minority situation or in a besieged or cathedral city, or a lake road, etc.

That aside though, I agree that the Tunnel rules do seem to indicate the option to place a tunnel token comes after placing a tile. It's unclear if it has to be done before or after the scoring phase. If done before the scoring phase it certainly seems that it can free up a follower that can be used during that move wood phase.
Title: Re: Complete Annotated Rules v. 7.0, 2nd printing
Post by: Paul on July 26, 2014, 07:29:56 AM
Think we (or at least I) could use a few examples.

I can't see any issues with:

Gold Mines
  It's a regular tile and scoring. The bars are handed in order, player's turn and clockwise during the feature completion to those that share the completed feature.

The Messages
  Only the player who's turn it is, is able to get one and only one message. If that players scores several times in one turn, he or she may choose the score order, if possible, and get a message if one of those scoring steps lands on an eligable number on the scoreboard. He or she may also choose each score source which of the two tokens on the scoreboard to move.
  This is the reason we rarely use this expansion, because it slows down the game.

The Castle
  The first segment completed nearby triggers the effect and the owner of the castle scores, whether or not other effects or conditions takes place.
Title: Re: Complete Annotated Rules v. 7.0, 2nd printing
Post by: Carcking on July 26, 2014, 07:40:18 PM
Think we (or at least I) could use a few examples.

I can't see any issues with:

Right. There are only issues with these if we hold to the notion (outdated official clarification?) that the current player decides the order in which features score.

Gold Mines
  It's a regular tile and scoring. The bars are handed in order, player's turn and clockwise during the feature completion to those that share the completed feature.

This works fine as long as it is resolved in turn order, not in an order determined by the current player.

The Messages
  Only the player who's turn it is, is able to get one and only one message. If that players scores several times in one turn, he or she may choose the score order, if possible, and get a message if one of those scoring steps lands on an eligable number on the scoreboard. He or she may also choose each score source which of the two tokens on the scoreboard to move.
  This is the reason we rarely use this expansion, because it slows down the game.

Not sure about this one. I believe the message is drawn immediately when the scoring marker hits the space on the scoreboard, and the message is resolved immediately when drawn (suspending the scoring phase). It does not seem that all the features would score simultaneously here because the current player does not have to add all his scores together before moving his scoring marker or his messenger. If he needs just two points to hit a message and one of his features is a two point road, he may score that one first so he can collect his message.

Let's say there is a city that was completed at the same time. He has a minority presence there but there are three pennants in the city. He may be banking on drawing the message that allows him to score points for pennants in a city he occupies, or perhaps the one that allows him to score points for knights. It would be in his interest to draw that before allowing that city to be scored and the followers removed.

Does the current player have that power?

There is a timing consideration for the current player, perhaps depending on the message he draws or would draw, but there are a myriad of combinations to consider.

The Castle
  The first segment completed nearby triggers the effect and the owner of the castle scores, whether or not other effects or conditions takes place.

In the case where the tile placement completes several features at once of varying score value who should decide which scores first? The current player? or the owner of the Castle?
Title: Re: Complete Annotated Rules v. 7.0, 2nd printing
Post by: Paul on July 26, 2014, 11:19:32 PM
The Castles

Quote from CAR v7.02, bottom of page 110:

It does not matter whether the structure completed actually scores any points. The castle still receives points for a completed structure which is not occupied by a follower.

Quote from CAR v7.02, top of page 111:

Should the placement of a tile simultaneously complete more than one structure adjacent to the castle, the occupier of the castle may decide which of them to receive points for. A castle receives points for only one completed structure.

The messages:

Quote from CAR v7.02 page 136 annotation 412:

If, for example, a city and a road are completed and scored by the active player, a different counting follower could be moved for each feature. However, all points scored by that city must be moved by one counting follower, and all points scored by that road must be moved by one counting follower.

Examples:
  1. I could put all the scoring on the follower or the messenger so it lands on a dark tile and draw a message.
  2. I put the road scoring on the messenger and it lands on a dark tile and I draw a message tile.
      I then put the city scoring on the messenger and it also lands on a dark tile but no message is drawn a second time.

Exception is the Builder as it is considered a second turn scoring thus allowing the player to get a second message.

The goldmines:

Quote from CAR v7.02 page 143:

When more than one player has the majority in a finished structure when gold is to be claimed, or when several structures with a claim to gold are completed at the same time, the gold pieces are distributed among those claiming players. Distribution proceeds
clockwise, starting with the active player, until all of the corresponding gold pieces have been awarded.


Hope this helps!
Title: Re: Complete Annotated Rules v. 7.0, 2nd printing
Post by: Carcking on July 27, 2014, 05:42:28 AM
Hi Yellow. Maybe we're not connecting. Your points are valid, and not in question, which helps to make the case I am trying illustrate - that the "Step 6: Resolve Completed Features" starting on page 182 of the CAR, and under the "Order of Play" section, is now obsolete. There are many cases, as we've pointed out in this discussion, which do not work if the current player decides the order in which features are resolved.
Paragraph 6.c) under Resolve Completed Features grants the current player the power to decide the order of resolution of the features.

That whole section needs to be updated.
Title: Re: Complete Annotated Rules v. 7.0, 2nd printing
Post by: Paul on July 27, 2014, 08:15:11 AM
Probably is something I can't grasp.  :@

My understanding is, there is a general order of play, and then the expansion rule that will overrule this.
  A player should have power, for it is his or her turn after all. That's part of the strategy.

Quote: That whole section needs to be updated.
  This is what I missed earlier and probably the reason for my replies. I'll look into this a bit more.
Title: Re: Complete Annotated Rules v. 7.0, 2nd printing
Post by: obervet on July 29, 2014, 05:45:47 AM
In going back and reading the rules, I think there is actually an argument to be made for tunnel token placement during the Move Wood phase. The rules state that the token may be placed "on the land tile which has just been placed", seemingly indicating that this is after tile placement. It doesn't say that you can't place a token during the scoring phase, but to me it kind of sounds like a Move Wood action that doesn't prevent follower placement.

It looks to me that this would be sensible and consistent with what we know. I may of course change my mind later.

P.S. I would suggest adding "claim tunnel" as a step 4G with a note that actually it can be any part of step 4. I can see reasons for claiming the tunnel late (for example waiting to see the flier dice roll) but I cannot see any reasons for early tunnel placement better tham "do it now before I forget".

The issue here is that we don't actually know what HiG's intent is for the timing of tunnel token placement. The rules do not restrict the placement to the Move Wood phase, so without an official clarification it would be inappropriate of me to specifically put tunnel placement there right now, even if that's what would make sense to you and me.

Ultimately, the CAR is a compilation of HiG's rules. The Turn Order has been put together by users on this forum, which is why there is fuzziness when it comes to some of the steps relative to recent rulings. I wholeheartedly agree that the Turn Order needs some updating, but it still has do be done within the confines of the official rules and clarifications from HiG.
Title: Re: Complete Annotated Rules v. 7.0, 2nd printing
Post by: obervet on July 29, 2014, 06:03:02 AM
Regarding the placement of a Flea - it would seem a player could flea his own follower (anytime) in order to have one to place that turn. Also, is there a similar sequence with the Tower if a player ransoms a follower back at anytime? (Although admittedly there is a cost associated with that one.)

I agree that these would be legitimate. The difference with these (compared to the tunnel situation) is that the return of a follower carries a negative cost (no score for the one that was flea'd, a payment for the one that was tower'd).

There doesn't have to be an expense to fleaing a follower. It is likely you would only do so if it was beneficial to you, which seems to make is similar to why you would place a tunnel token at any particular time. Perhaps the flead follower was trapped in a minority situation or in a besieged or cathedral city, or a lake road, etc.

I actually wasn't thinking correctly when I commented on fleeing the fleas. I was thinking about the follower leaving a potentially high-scoring feature, but I forgot that the follower still had to stay within the same feature.
Title: Re: Complete Annotated Rules v. 7.0, 2nd printing
Post by: obervet on July 29, 2014, 06:16:04 AM
So what does the order of feature completion actually impact. I can only find the wagon and the school.

A few others would be the Castle, collecting Gold and the Messages. There may be others we'll have to think of.

I agree, there is a conflict in the scoring sequence between the current player choosing the sequence vs the Robber being able to decide who to steal points from. If he has to take the first player that scores it seems the active player will dictate who that will be.

So we have:
The Robbers
Gold Mines
The Messages
The Castle
The Wagon
The Teacher

I don't recall how it came to be that all scoring during the scoring phase was not considered simultaneous. If it were the case then such decisions as the Teacher, the Robber, the Castle would be the choice of those players. The Wagon moving, the Messages and collecting Gold is resolved in turn order. Not sure what other mechanics we're not thinking of yet - but they may fall into either of those two categories: players' choice or turn order resolution.

This is all a case for "the active player decides" to be obsoleted, since HiG has challenged the scoring order with the nature of several of the new expansions.

Now I cannot think of a scenario where it is equitable for the active player to decide...

It seems that scoring was considered simultaneous at least through Bridges, Castles, and Bazaars, as the special considerations for moving multiple wagons or scoring a castle after multiple features were completed would imply this. It looks like it was the introduction of the Robbers and the Messages that required each individual scoring event to be considered separately. To me, that makes the scoring much less intuitive and much more intrusive and likely to break up the flow of the game, which is why the Messages and Robbers have only hit my table once.

In any event, the Turn Order definitely needs some work. It's on the To Do list.
Title: Re: Complete Annotated Rules v. 7.0, 2nd printing
Post by: Carcking on July 29, 2014, 09:04:56 AM
...The Turn Order has been put together by users on this forum, which is why there is fuzziness when it comes to some of the steps relative to recent rulings. I wholeheartedly agree that the Turn Order needs some updating, but it still has do be done within the confines of the official rules and clarifications from HiG.

I like the Turn Order Summary. It puts into application virtually all of the content of the CAR.
Title: Re: Complete Annotated Rules v. 7.0, 2nd printing
Post by: kettlefish on July 30, 2014, 05:27:51 AM
What do you all think - should we start a new topic about the Turn Order Summary, like that one what we have had in the old CarcC Forum?
Title: Re: Complete Annotated Rules v. 7.0, 2nd printing
Post by: Carcking on July 30, 2014, 06:52:20 AM
What do you all think - should we start a new topic about the Turn Order Summary, like that one what we have had in the old CarcC Forum?

I've been talking with obervet recently, and I will be working on updating the Turn Order Summary this Fall. I will take all the suggestions I can get, so might not be a bad idea to start a new thread.
Title: Re: Complete Annotated Rules v. 7.0, 2nd printing
Post by: asparagus on August 01, 2014, 02:17:51 AM
What do you all think - should we start a new topic about the Turn Order Summary, like that one what we have had in the old CarcC Forum?

I've been talking with obervet recently, and I will be working on updating the Turn Order Summary this Fall. I will take all the suggestions I can get, so might not be a bad idea to start a new thread.

Great. I have been without internet (actually unexpectedly) for almost a week due to travelling. At the time I lost contact I had developed some misunderstandings of the rules, especially the Robbers and Messengers. Currently I have worked through those and currently I have no major disagreement with the CAR or the turn order. However I do find that the official rules are often horribly vague, and the CAR does not always clarify as much as one might hope - and that sometimes it is difficult to relate the rules and the CAR turn order or examples. I also have a large number of minor disagreements with the CAR turn order and suggestions for improvements.

I have been coming to the conclusion that dribbling these out onto the forum is probably not the best approach and as I said currently I have nothing tile-disturbing anyway. I have been preparing a document with I hope a much clearer presentation of the turn order with a careful justification. I hope the revision of the turn order will benefit from this. It also goes without saying that I am immensely indebted to the creators of the CAR as any level of misunderstanding I may have achieved now is far superior to the simple "understanding" I had with just an RGG basic set.
Title: Re: Complete Annotated Rules v. 7.0, 2nd printing
Post by: rfielder on August 11, 2014, 10:31:02 AM
When I go to the Carcassonne Central home pages, and click on the link to the CAR for "Carcassonne: Standard Edition", it still points to version 6.4 of the CAR.

It shows as "Posted by: obervet 11 December 2013, 20:26:05"

I see that the latest download of V6.4 was today at 13:24hrs.

I verified that if you click on the link labelled "S-CAR v6.4.pdf", you do get V6.4 of the CAR.

Can this be updated to point to the newest version?

Thanks!
Title: Re: Complete Annotated Rules v. 7.0, 2nd printing
Post by: Carcking on August 11, 2014, 11:09:20 AM
Good catch rfielder!
Title: Re: Complete Annotated Rules v. 7.0, 2nd printing
Post by: rfielder on August 18, 2014, 12:00:53 PM
Good catch rfielder!
Thank you!

However, it would be more satisfying if this were fixed.  I see that V6.4 is still the download.
Title: Re: Complete Annotated Rules v. 7.0, 2nd printing
Post by: obervet on August 25, 2014, 05:49:03 AM
Good catch rfielder!
Thank you!

However, it would be more satisfying if this were fixed.  I see that V6.4 is still the download.

I agree that it needs to be fixed. I don't have the clout to do it. But based on multiple messages that I have gotten to my personal email account, having the outdated link on the front page has confused multiple people.
Title: Re: Complete Annotated Rules v. 7.0, 2nd printing
Post by: rfielder on August 25, 2014, 06:22:08 AM
I agree that it needs to be fixed. I don't have the clout to do it. But based on multiple messages that I have gotten to my personal email account, having the outdated link on the front page has confused multiple people.
Who is the site admin?  Is that Scott?
Title: Re: Complete Annotated Rules v. 7.0, 2nd printing
Post by: Whaleyland on August 25, 2014, 08:17:53 AM
I fixed the link but not the text. The upload date is still wrong but I'm not sure how to fix that. The file is correct, now, though. I'll see if I can mess with it a bit more later today.
Title: Re: Complete Annotated Rules v. 7.0, 2nd printing
Post by: Scott on September 02, 2014, 07:29:41 PM
Appears to have been fixed at this time. Yellow and danisthirty have the ability to update the home page, in addition to myself and Gantry.
Title: Re: Complete Annotated Rules v. 7.0, 2nd printing
Post by: egamar on September 10, 2014, 11:52:57 PM
Pardon me for being a smart*rse, but on P257 the word 'depreciated' should be 'deprecated' and on P256 the explanation for 'crop circles' ends with "they may do not have to do anything" - I'm guessing the first 'do' is superfluous. 

I only found these 'errors' because I love reading the document - it's an utterly brilliant piece of work!
Title: Re: Complete Annotated Rules v. 7.0, 2nd printing
Post by: Paul on September 11, 2014, 09:56:38 AM
Pardon me for being a smart*rse, but on P257 the word 'depreciated' should be 'deprecated' and on P256 the explanation for 'crop circles' ends with "they may do not have to do anything" - I'm guessing the first 'do' is superfluous. 

I only found these 'errors' because I love reading the document - it's an utterly brilliant piece of work!

Error correction is always welcomed!  :(y)

It's a huge document and it's tough keeping track of it all. I mean, I've read the thing twice and missed these errors.
Title: Re: Complete Annotated Rules v. 7.0, 2nd printing
Post by: danielbrie on September 14, 2014, 12:41:00 AM
Hi. Cover guy here  :) . Since there are some newcomers in the collection I updated the cover with them. The question is to whom I should send those files. There are hi-res variants to choose.

 :blue-meeple:
Title: Re: Complete Annotated Rules v. 7.0, 2nd printing
Post by: Paul on September 14, 2014, 02:14:56 AM
Hi. Cover guy here  :) . Since there are some newcomers in the collection I updated the cover with them. The question is to whom I should send those files. There are hi-res variants to choose.

 :blue-meeple:

I'm sure whom it may concern will contact you soon enough. Meanwhile, could you mail these to me as well? I collect stuff.  :meeple: Check your personal messages for my E-mail.  :)
Title: Re: Complete Annotated Rules v. 7.0, 2nd printing
Post by: danielbrie on September 15, 2014, 04:46:22 AM
Still waiting...

 :blue-meeple:
Title: Re: Complete Annotated Rules v. 7.0, 2nd printing
Post by: kettlefish on September 16, 2014, 02:09:15 AM
Hi. Cover guy here  :) . Since there are some newcomers in the collection I updated the cover with them. The question is to whom I should send those files. There are hi-res variants to choose.

 :blue-meeple:
Hi danielbrie,
in the CAR v7.02 page 301 you can find the contact to obervet.

I like to see your version of the cover...  ;D
Title: Re: Complete Annotated Rules v. 7.0, 2nd printing
Post by: kettlefish on September 16, 2014, 02:11:38 AM
I will met the HiG team at Spiel 2014 in Essen on 16 10 2014. Then I will ask Georg Wild some questions of the rules.

And also at Spiel 2014 will come some more Carcassonne stuff...
Title: Re: Complete Annotated Rules v. 7.0, 2nd printing
Post by: Whaleyland on September 16, 2014, 03:21:08 AM
And also at Spiel 2014 will come some more Carcassonne stuff...
Thoughts, Tobias?
Title: Re: Complete Annotated Rules v. 7.0, 2nd printing
Post by: danielbrie on September 17, 2014, 02:37:47 AM
Hi danielbrie,
in the CAR v7.02 page 301 you can find the contact to obervet.

I like to see your version of the cover...  ;D

Thank you. I've contacted obervet. I am eager to share the different (almost the same) versions for the cover, but they are hi-def and quite big files. Will see what obervet suggests.

 :blue-meeple:
Title: Re: Complete Annotated Rules v. 7.0, 2nd printing
Post by: MrNumbers on October 31, 2014, 01:47:40 AM
Small errata: p.169, example for Vineyards - thiis = this.
Title: Re: Complete Annotated Rules v. 7.0, 2nd printing
Post by: Whaleyland on November 01, 2014, 04:06:56 AM
obervet, how close are you to getting a new draft of the rules up with Halflings, Dutch monasteries, and Darmstadt? I know you're waiting for FAQs to be answered, but Will you do a beta with just the new rules while waiting?
Title: Re: Complete Annotated Rules v. 7.0, 2nd printing
Post by: obervet on November 07, 2014, 11:46:15 AM
Pardon me for being a smart*rse, but on P257 the word 'depreciated' should be 'deprecated' and on P256 the explanation for 'crop circles' ends with "they may do not have to do anything" - I'm guessing the first 'do' is superfluous. 

I only found these 'errors' because I love reading the document - it's an utterly brilliant piece of work!

I have corrected the crop circles entry. I have actually removed the "depreciated" entry -- that wasn't really the right word, but "deprecated" isn't really appropriate outside of computer lingo either. Either way, the specific entry really wasn't needed.
Title: Re: Complete Annotated Rules v. 7.0, 2nd printing
Post by: obervet on November 07, 2014, 11:54:22 AM
obervet, how close are you to getting a new draft of the rules up with Halflings, Dutch monasteries, and Darmstadt? I know you're waiting for FAQs to be answered, but Will you do a beta with just the new rules while waiting?

I'm actually just starting to get working on all of the many things that need to be added to and changed in the CAR. It really hasn't been an issue of waiting for clarifications to fall into place, it's more that life has to come first. I hope to have the next version out by the end of 2014, but I can't make any promises.
Title: Re: Complete Annotated Rules v. 7.0, 2nd printing
Post by: Whaleyland on November 07, 2014, 11:58:35 AM
obervet, how close are you to getting a new draft of the rules up with Halflings, Dutch monasteries, and Darmstadt? I know you're waiting for FAQs to be answered, but Will you do a beta with just the new rules while waiting?

I'm actually just starting to get working on all of the many things that need to be added to and changed in the CAR. It really hasn't been an issue of waiting for clarifications to fall into place, it's more that life has to come first. I hope to have the next version out by the end of 2014, but I can't make any promises.
Fair enough and I certainly know what you mean. I've got people breathing down my neck about updating some Pandemic role cards, and I just discovered a new expansion for Pandemic is coming out with new role cards! Argh!!!
Title: Re: Complete Annotated Rules v. 7.0, 2nd printing
Post by: danisthirty on November 08, 2014, 11:06:22 PM
obervet, how close are you to getting a new draft of the rules up with Halflings, Dutch monasteries, and Darmstadt? I know you're waiting for FAQs to be answered, but Will you do a beta with just the new rules while waiting?

I'm actually just starting to get working on all of the many things that need to be added to and changed in the CAR. It really hasn't been an issue of waiting for clarifications to fall into place, it's more that life has to come first. I hope to have the next version out by the end of 2014, but I can't make any promises.

 :) :(y)