Carcassonne Central
Carc Central Community => Online Games and Competitions => JCloisterZone FAQ, Suggestions & Bug Reports => Topic started by: MrNumbers on November 02, 2014, 08:21:56 AM
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One more rule clarification that needs to be fixed in JCZ:
Removing a follower from a city with the help of Princess doesn't allow to place a Phantom (not only in that city - nowhere). Proof - CAR 7.0.2 p.125, note 386.
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Really???? Why not?? First move the wood is princess then second is place phantom.
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Really???? Why not?? First move the wood is princess then second is place phantom.
I can only quote note 386:
The placement of a princess tile (Princess & Dragon) with removal of a knight from the city cannot be used as a first “follower move” and be followed by placement of the Phantom (e.g. into the now-vacated city). As per the rules for the princess, “if a knight is removed from the city, the player may not deploy or move any other figure.”
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Interesting, I didn't know this rule before, but you are right.
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ok changed in 3.0.2 and released today
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Really???? Why not?? First move the wood is princess then second is place phantom.
I can only quote note 386:
The placement of a princess tile (Princess & Dragon) with removal of a knight from the city cannot be used as a first “follower move” and be followed by placement of the Phantom (e.g. into the now-vacated city). As per the rules for the princess, “if a knight is removed from the city, the player may not deploy or move any other figure.”
Is this something that HiG has been asked directly? It doesn't quite "feel" like it's in keeping with the rest of the rules to me, and sounds more like something that's been written without taking The Phantom into consideration. Is there anyone this could be double-checked with?
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Is this something that HiG has been asked directly? It doesn't quite "feel" like it's in keeping with the rest of the rules to me, and sounds more like something that's been written without taking The Phantom into consideration. Is there anyone this could be double-checked with?
I agree with Mr. Thirsty. This discussion should be replicated in the Rules discussion, as a query to the gods of Carcassonne.
Using the Princess means moving wood. In all other cases, you move wood, then place the phantom. That is consistent, as far as I know.
The idea that maybe the rules for the Princess were written before the introduction may be valid - can anyone comment on this timing?
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As far as I am aware, the special "open book" symbol in CAR means that this information is official and comes directly from HiG. Note 386 has that special symbol. That is why I don't doubt it.
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It's exception in rules but makes sense. Princess was released before Phantom and there was no option to claim emptied city immediately.
With phantom it is too strong withiut restriction. It would mean that you can take control of any city immediatelly without any effort.
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It would mean that you can take control of any city immediatelly without any effort.
That's why I liked it (as long as it doesn't happen to me)! >:D Oh well, if it's something that has been decided rather than assumed then I'm happy to go along with it.
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As far as I am aware, the special "open book" symbol in CAR means that this information is official and comes directly from HiG. Note 386 has that special symbol. That is why I don't doubt it.
I would suggest that an official ruling on this be requested. You are correct that this discussion is based on a direct quote from the official rules.
My reason - the quoted portion of the CAR is quoting a section of the rules for the Princess. If the rules for the Princess were written before the concept of the Phantom was executed, then that section needs to be modified, or clarified.
The quote from the CAR is:As per the rules for the princess, “if a knight is removed from the city, the
player may not deploy or move any other figure.”
First point - that is an incomplete quote from the rules. The full quote from page 57 of the CAR is:If a knight is removed from the city, the player may not deploy or move any other figure (including follower, builder, pig, mayor, barn, wagon, or fairy)
As you can see, they list the items that could not be moved after the knight was removed. The Phantom is not included in this list.
That rules makes sense for a game without the Phantom. What they are saying is that removing the knight is the move wood turn. My argument is that this created one exception to the rules for the Phantom - a rule that is consistent in every other situation. Why would such an exception be needed? Yes, it is very powerful to take a city after removing the opponent's knight on the same move - but so is capturing two cities on the same move, which is also possible with the Phantom. Or capturing a city and a far, or a road and a farm, etc, etc.
The Phantom introduces some game changing possibilities. Kicking you off then taking your city fits within the philosophy behind the Phantom, as far as I can see.
If this truly excludes the use of the Phantom, then I think the official rules should be updated to have a statement something like "or move any other figure (including follower, builder, pig, mayor, barn, wagon, fairy, or phantom)." (emphasis mine)
I will post a query in the Official Rules section.
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Just another thought regarding this. It was mentioned that you shouldn’t be able to remove a knight with a princess and then claim the empty city with your phantom on the same turn because of how damaging this could be in terms of upsetting the balance of power. But you can do exactly the same thing with a tower (as far as I can tell) so I can’t see why this should be any different...
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So, danisthirty, what you're saying is that the Phantom unnecessarily complicates the game and we shouldn't use it ever again. OK, got it.
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THE PHANTOM IS THE BEST PART OF THE GAME!!!
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Just another thought regarding this. It was mentioned that you shouldn’t be able to remove a knight with a princess and then claim the empty city with your phantom on the same turn because of how damaging this could be in terms of upsetting the balance of power. But you can do exactly the same thing with a tower (as far as I can tell) so I can’t see why this should be any different...
But it is a difference!!! C:-)
Se page 125, note 386 in the CAR:
The placement of a princess tile (Princess & Dragon) with removal of a knight from the city cannot be used as a first “follower move” and be followed by placement of the Phantom (e.g. into the now-vacated city). As per the rules for the princess, “if a knight is removed from the city, the player may not deploy or move any other figure.”
I think this sounds right. It’s enough that you can take the city with a tower and then the phantom. It would be too easy if you could use the princess the same way. :meeple:
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I think this sounds right. It’s enough that you can take the city with a tower and then the phantom. It would be too easy if you could use the princess the same way. :meeple:
Darwin - please read my response to this interpretation of the rule, and my post in the Official Rules section asking for an official rules.
The main thing about your quote from the CAR - the CAR uses an incomplete quote, and is referring to a rule created before the Phantom was introduced.
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I agree that we need an official clarification rfielder.
But in my humble opinion - if the removal of a knight from a city with the princess is the "move the wood" turn, you can’t place the phantom in the city. If you can place it at all, you have to place the phantom on another structure on the tile. As I se it, you have already used your first "move the wood" turn on the city and that excludes the placement of the phantom in the same city. In my mind this is the same as with the flyer and the portal. You can’t use a portal and a flying machine with both a follower and then a phantom.
I just checked the IOS Carcassonne. There the use of the princess excludes the use of the phantom too. I don't know how involved Hans im Glück have been in the game, but they have approved it.
Maybe not so important - but this concerns the shepherd too. The adding of another sheep or scoring your flock always follows the "move the wood" turn. So what do you do when the princess (and you use it) adds to the farm where you have your Shepherd?
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if the removal of a knight from a city with the princess is the "move the wood" turn, you can’t place the phantom in the city. If you can place it at all, you have to place the phantom on another structure on the tile. As I see it, you have already used your first "move the wood" turn on the city and that excludes the placement of the phantom in the same city.
It is a VERY GOOD point! :(y) It can cut off all the questions! And it separates Princess from Tower, where "move the wood" applies to another structure (tower) thus Phantom CAN be placed in now free city.
Maybe not so important - but this concerns the shepherd too. The adding of another sheep or scoring your flock always follows the "move the wood" turn. So what do you do when the princess (and you use it) adds to the farm where you have your Shepherd?
Shepherd actions is something different from "move the wood". I agree that you cannot place shepherd after using the Princess, but still you can expand your flock or score your sheep.
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Just to clarify where I stand on this, I'm happy to go with what the official ruling is. If this isn't allowed then that's fine with me as long as we're certain that this is definitely the case. I'm only contesting it because it isn't clear whether the suggestion that this isn't allowed is based on guidance from HiG or whether it's assumed, correctly or otherwise, from a selection of other rules regarding other expansions. C:-)
In my mind this is the same as with the flyer and the portal. You can’t use a portal and a flying machine with both a follower and then a phantom.
A good point indeed! :)
I will admit that I don't follow the official rules as closely as many other members here do, but I do think it's worth noting that there's an important difference between using the Princess to remove a knight and claiming a magic portal or a flying machine. This is that the magic portal/ flying machine is completed by the first move the wood phase, meaning they can't be claimed again with the phantom. Whereas using the Princess doesn't complete the city (in most cases, although in some it may do I suppose) but leaves it incomplete and for the purpose of this discussion, unclaimed (otherwise there certainly wouldn't be a case for claiming it with a phantom).