The question about farmers, barns and watchtowers here reminded me of the issues watchtowers scoring per neighboring meeples pose when they overlap. When scoring these two cities, the scoring may differ depending which city is scored first... since some meeples may be removed before the watchtower in the other is evaluated... In this case, it would seem reasonable to evaluate both watchtowers before both cities so no meeples are removed; otherwise you would get into trouble regarding who makes a decision in case of conflict. This would mean to break the loop where each feature and their bonuses are scored together. Moreover, we saw in the Advent Quiz an example with castles and robbers (see Question #17) where features were evaluated in an order different than the one used for scoring the points in order to address castle dependencies and to minimize the impact of robbers. I think this principle should be applied in a generic way...The scoring of a complex scenario combining castles, (meeple) watchtowers and robbers may not resolved in a step based on one loop as suggested in the basic rules. Instead, several steps with one loop each may be required. The following summary shows the key actions to handle a complex scoring:1) Identify the features to be scored: completed features, castles completed by them and fields scored due to a barn: - This is step to decide which features to score and their order of evaluation - It is important for castles which may have even chained dependencies2) Evaluate points each feature is worth, considering bonuses for features and figures/tokens involved: - No points are scored yet - No meeples are removed yet3) Decide the order of scoring: - Robbers and opportunities for messages are taken into consideration - The decisions made are communicated to the other players so everyone defines their scoring plan4) Points are scored on the scoreboard - The scoring figures are moved - Robbers steal points accordingly5) Meeples are removed if not moved (wagons only)In the end, players should work with a snapshot of the playing area in order to plan and perform the scoring. After scoring all the required meeples and figures can be removed. Note: So far there is only one documented scoring that happens after all meeples are removed: the big top. Of course, this would have an impact on the Order of Play so complex cases are reflected properly... This would mean slicing Step 3B in several loops for starters.Any thoughts?
1) Identify the features to be scored: completed features, castles completed by them and fields scored due to a barn: - This is step to decide which features to score and their order of evaluation - It is important for castles which may have even chained dependencies2) Evaluate points each feature is worth, considering bonuses for features and figures/tokens involved: - No points are scored yet - No meeples are removed yet
3) Decide the order of scoring: - Robbers and opportunities for messages are taken into consideration - The decisions made are communicated to the other players so everyone defines their scoring plan4) Points are scored on the scoreboard - The scoring figures are moved - Robbers steal points accordingly
5) Meeples are removed if not moved (wagons only)
I'm not sure this clarifies my question...
If I understand correctly, in step 4, if I have a fairy attached to red ringmaster on a road, and blue having other features: the fairy could be scored, then one of blue's features, then red's road, then one of blue's feature, and then the ringmaster bonus? (here, there's no scoring order rule at all)Or if you score red ringmaster's fairy, then red's road and ringmaster bonus still have to be scored one after another, before scoring something else ?
In other words, is thereno scoring order rules at all, even bonuses attached to a same meeple may be separated by other scoringsOR once you start scoring something attached to a meeple (a bonus and/or the feature), you still have to score every other things (other bonuses and/or the feature) attached to that meeple before scoring something for another meeple?
Toll changes with travellersIf you have scored at least one group of travellers with your tollhouse, you change its value. The small toll (1) becomes the large toll (2) or vice versa.You change your toll only at the end of your turn. If you score more than one road with one toll within the same turn, its value is the same for all the roads.
Also remember that tolls are not turned over (if required) until the scoring is completed. There are no side effects caused by the order of scoring of the roads involved. The same toll is applied to any road involved.You would turn over the tollhouse token if at least one of the roads scored had a group of travellers.Here you are an excerpt of the rules when scoring roads with groups of travellers:https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/The_Tollkeepers#3._Scoring_a_featureQuoteToll changes with travellersIf you have scored at least one group of travellers with your tollhouse, you change its value. The small toll (1) becomes the large toll (2) or vice versa.You change your toll only at the end of your turn. If you score more than one road with one toll within the same turn, its value is the same for all the roads.
Quote from: Meepledrone on January 20, 2021, 08:41:53 AMAlso remember that tolls are not turned over (if required) until the scoring is completed. There are no side effects caused by the order of scoring of the roads involved. The same toll is applied to any road involved.You would turn over the tollhouse token if at least one of the roads scored had a group of travellers.Here you are an excerpt of the rules when scoring roads with groups of travellers:https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/The_Tollkeepers#3._Scoring_a_featureQuoteToll changes with travellersIf you have scored at least one group of travellers with your tollhouse, you change its value. The small toll (1) becomes the large toll (2) or vice versa.You change your toll only at the end of your turn. If you score more than one road with one toll within the same turn, its value is the same for all the roads.I knew it, don't know why I forgot that !
And so, if we're working with a snapshot, removing meeples only after evaluating all of the points, the separation between Bonus scoring (prolog), Bonus scoring (epilog) and feature scoring can be removed, as they may be scored in any order (there's no prolog and epilog, only feature scoring and bonus scoring)?
In the "scoring during turn sequence", we could even list the bonus scoring separately from the feature scoring, to make it clear that they do not have to be scored together (currently, if we look at road scoring for example, toll bonus and watchtower bonus are listed inside the road scoring, this tends to think that they HAVE to be scored along with the road).
Instead, we could have in Step 3B: Resolve Completed Features:A list of every bonus scoring (toll, fairy, ringmaster, watchtower...etc), listed without dependency to a featureA list of every feature scoring (without the bonus listed above)This would make it clear that there's no predetermined order of scoring, and it'd also make the list smaller, as the bonuses'd be listed only once, instead of multiple times with every kind of feature...
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