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Messages - tothederby
16
« on: March 15, 2019, 06:03:58 PM »
Flowchart attached here
17
« on: March 15, 2019, 05:57:57 PM »
Many thanks Meepledrone - i really appreciate it.
I've updated the pdf to include an order of play flowchart which builds off the work of Christopher May (he had posted a version of this a while ago - thank you for that Christopher). And it now includes a list of expansions I've attempted to cover so far.
I still have loads of questions but don't want to monopolise the forum!
18
« on: March 15, 2019, 01:18:02 PM »
Just to give my working:
with 1 base game (B) plus 2 expansions (E1 & E2), the combinations are: B, B+E1, B+E2,B+E1+E2 = 4 combinations = 2 to the power of 2
with 1 base game plus 3 expansions: B, B+E1, B+E2, B+E3, B+E1+E2, B+E1+E3, B+E2+E3, B+E1+E2+E3 = 8 = 2 to the power of 3
with 1 base game plus n expansions: combinations = 2 to the power of n
I guess sticking with the expansions you like best is a good approach - there is not enough time to play all the combinations!
Pinning down the rules well with so many possible interactions is also important......
19
« on: March 15, 2019, 11:16:38 AM »
The figure I come up with, rounded, is 275 billion. If two more expansions were added, options suggested by Sinscerly and Whaleyland, this would bring the figure to approx. 1.1 trillion (or exactly 1 terabyte of game combinations).
20
« on: March 15, 2019, 11:12:02 AM »
Hi Meepledrone
I was thinking about the princess and knight situation.
This may help our thinking process and perhaps go a bit deeper (or it may not help!)...
Situation 1: If "A" happens, then you must do "B" and if you do "B" you cannot do "C", "D" or "E"
OR
Situation 2: If "A" happens, then you may do "B" and if you do "B" you cannot do "C", "D" or "E"
AND
Situation 3: If "A" happens, then you may do "C" and if you do "C" you cannot do "B", "D" or "E"
Situation 4: If "A" happens, then you may do "D" and if you do "D" you cannot do "B", "C" or "E"
Situations 3 and 4 can be combined with either situation 1 OR situation2 (but not both - Situation 1 and 2 are mutually exclusive - either you must do "B" or you may do "B").
If you had situations 2, 3 and 4 available to you, how would you choose which one you would do first? and what reasoning would you give (rhetorically)? If you cannot choose, then they should all be offered together, effectively as one choice.
If you had situation 1 with either or both of situations 3 and 4, you can now choose an order. Situation 1 has to happen first since it is a requirement for "B" to happen, then if any choice remains available (there won't be any in this case) you could choose between 3 & 4.
The output of this is to group together rules that have the same structure and conditionality and this drives the timing of when they need to happen and whether they are simultaneous.
The same applies to the acrobat problem you and Skull One were discussing. I think I have the same outcome as you which is that scoring acrobats are one of the 19 choices that need to be decided simultaneously on phase 1 of move the wood. Since another choice at this moment is to place a meeple on an acrobat pyramid, there is no conflict - you can only choose at most one or the other of these actions (page 9 of my condensed rules refer).
I think this is just the start of the conversation though - lots of other things spin off....
Hope we can continue the discussion
tothederby
21
« on: March 14, 2019, 07:03:23 AM »
Thanks for the responses Sinscerly and Whaleyland.
I think its a good sized number but not as big as you are suggesting.
22
« on: March 13, 2019, 06:00:20 PM »
You are a star - thank you. Like you I will re-engage in the thread tomorrow (time for bed now) - so much to talk about...
23
« on: March 13, 2019, 04:29:34 PM »
Can a castle (of the expansion 8 variety) that was created on first placement of a tile be completed on that same turn?
Specifically, if on first tile placement you complete two features. You choose to 'score' the first feature which is a town / small city that you choose to convert to a castle in the first pass through of Step 7 of the order of play (Resolve Completed Features). The second completed feature is in the fief / vicinity of the new castle. Do you not need to complete the castle and score it, all in that one turn?
I can’t find any reference in ZMG to a rule that says you need to wait until the next turn or even builder repeat turn. However, from CAR 7.4 in footnote 304 on page 98 it says: “The RGG version of the rules states that the castle scores only “when the first feature … in the vicinity of the castle is later completed” (emphasis added) – while a subsequent turn is not specifically mentioned, it seems apparent in both rule sets that a feature that is completed on the turn that the castle is built does not allow the castle to score.”
But in CAR 7.4 on page 99 it says: “The follower in the castle always receives points for the next structure to be completed. It may not be left in play in order to receive points for a structure which might be completed later.”
24
« on: March 13, 2019, 02:48:59 PM »
How many ways can you combine the mini and major expansions with the base game? For instance Watchtowers and the Crop Circles can be combined to form the following games: base game on its own, base game + crop circles, base game plus watchtower and base game plus watchtower plus crop circles. Answer is 4.
So if there are 38 expansions how many games can you construct in this manner?
[I have included each of the following as an expansion: Inns & Cathedrals, Traders and Builders, The Princess and the Dragon, The Tower, Abbey and Mayor, The Catapult, Bridges, Castles & Bazaars, Hills & Sheep, Under the Big Top, The Wheel of Fortune, The Fliers, The Messengers, The Ferries, The Gold Mines, The Mage & Witch, The Robbers, The Crop Circles, The Cathars / Siege / Besiegers (counted as one expansion), The Mini-Expansion GQ11, The Tunnel, The Plague, The Halflings, The School, The Phantom, The Festival, The Little Buildings, The Wind Roses, The Special Monasteries (German, Dutch, Japanese - counted as one expansion), The German Castles, The Watchtowers, The German Cathedrals, The Labyrinths, The Markets of Leipzig, The Fruit-Bearing Trees, The Barber-Surgeons and from Expansion 6 each of (counted as separate expansions): The King, The Count / City of Carcassonne and The Cult / Shrines (counted as one expansion).
I appreciate this labelling of expansions has subjectivity but the challenge is not about the labelling, but about the number of combinations that arises.]
25
« on: March 13, 2019, 02:09:57 PM »
Hi again meepledrone. Sorry if my earlier post is polluting this thread. I have tried to access your order of play but on my PC it says it is "transmogrifying" and I can't access any content. Is there a way to access it (is it something I am doing wrong)?
I do have two questions / comments relating to order of play based on CAR 7.4. You may have addressed them on your web pages but I'd be very keen to get your views.
1. Princess & the knight. The new rules use the word 'may' not 'must': "you may remove one knight of your choice (even your own)" and I have adopted this (I note the recent thread discussion on this). From this, I consider this princess action becomes part of the 'Move the Wood' phase 1. I don't believe there is need to insist the action is taken before making the extensive choice of other Move the Wood actions and indeed I think it needs to move into 'Move the Wood' phase 1. Do you / others agree?
2. Scoring order of completed features: I’ve seen the reference to “Each player receiving points chooses the order in which features resolve.” for Step 6b in CAR7.4 Identify Completed Features. I’ve struggled with this. If more than one player is receiving points from a number of different features that have completed, who decides which feature is scored first etc.? Shouldn't this be changed to "the order for scoring is decided only by the active player"?
26
« on: March 13, 2019, 01:35:27 PM »
Thanks again Halfling.
I guess if the rule is that they physically swap places (rather than remain in situ but change ownership), then the rules should add a qualifier along the lines of the bold words below for the avoidance of doubt or misunderstanding:
"The player may exchange one of his own followers with a follower of another player, only if the new locations of the swapped players are valid locations for the types of followers swapped" . This confirms that for instance a mayor in a city cannot be swapped with an abbot in a garden.
I'm still not clear on the scoring but I think that is because I've not explained my question well. At the end of the game, qualifying players score any cities with a knight in them as complete cities rather than incomplete. For those same knights, do they score any other points eg. do they also score (again) when scoring incomplete cities for all other followers / players? Is La Porxada bonus to upgrade the knight scoring or is it to allow double scoring?
Since posting the opening of this thread, I have read a post from 2017 by Just a Bill (pasted below) which does cause me to rethink the basic premise of La Porxada. Does anyone have the full translation from Spanish of the rules?
All this discussion has led me to read the rules for this tile again, and I have to say that they are pretty leaky (poorly defined). Users on BGG asked some (unanswered) questions, and I have others. Unfortunately, the English text in CAR 7.4 is more of a loose paraphrase than an actual translation of the original La Porxada rulesheet (I can read Spanish). For example, "any player who had a knight in the city containing La Porxada may score all unfinished cities containing his or her followers as if they were finished" does not have the same implications as the original, which translates as "all the cities not completed by the player or players who have knights in the city where La Porxada exists [do] count as if they were finished." There are multiple significant differences there: optional vs. mandatory, certain players vs. everyone, counts for scoring only itself vs. counts for scoring anything (or any other purposes). So I'm adding this to my list of things to revisit/discuss for the CAR update.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2017, 01:18:12 PM by Just a Bill »
In addition to all this I have found
27
« on: March 13, 2019, 12:19:56 PM »
I had a three questions on La Porxada:
1) Swapping meeples: what does it mean to swap meeples? does this mean swap places with each other? or does it mean to take possession of the other player's meeple in their respective current locations? or does it mean both? Swapping places may be illegal (a barn cannot be placed in a city etc.) so it would seem to point to 'taking possession' with meeples remaining in situ.
2) Tagging meeples: How do you tag or track that a different coloured meeple now belongs to you (and one of yours belongs to the other player)? This I guess is more an issue if a normal meeple is swapped.
3) End Game Scoring: If end game bonus points are chosen, are these bonus points awarded (incomplete city scored as a complete city) in addition to scoring the incomplete features as normal?
Grateful for any answers, insights or thoughts?
28
« on: March 13, 2019, 12:15:53 PM »
Thank you Halfling - I was hoping that was the right thing to do. If it was not, it kind of cuts to the heart of the basic play.....and raises all sorts of other questions...
29
« on: March 13, 2019, 11:58:46 AM »
Thanks very much for WICA meepledrone - it has been a core source of info for me to better understand the game and I have so appreciated the work. I did have one question and one comment on it relating to market so Leipzig which I was puzzled by. In footnote 2. you say: "This means also roads connected through other features, such as monasteries, fruit trees, etc. that are to be found in other expansions". The question is: why did you include "monasteries" in this list - was there a particular reason? My comment was, that it would be helpful to (exhaustively) define what does not break a road connection to Leipzig and what does. - I had thought the following would NOT break the connection: small village, house, crossroads, road junction, trees or other incidental or minor feature (such as fruit trees, bazaar, bath house or festival). - And the following would break the connection: cities, towers / tower foundations, lakes without a ferry connection, Bogatyr stone, Solovei Razboynik tree, acrobat spaces, circus spaces, crop circles, watch towers, shrines, abbeys, all types of monasteries, castles (German or expansion  , German cathedrals, the city of Carcassonne, the Wheel of Fortune and the school do break the connection. Does this work?
30
« on: March 13, 2019, 11:00:28 AM »
I have a simple question: if a message tile is drawn and it is the 'Add a landscape' tile, you can place the drawn landscape tile and place a meeple on it as normal. Do you also score the tile if it completes a feature?
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