Carcassonne Central
Carc Central Community => General => Topic started by: Whaleyland on November 28, 2014, 01:57:13 PM
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ELEMENT OF THE WEEK: THE COUNT OF CARCASSONNE
Each week, a specific element from an expansion is chosen for deeper discussion. This is an opportunity for you, Carcassonne's biggest English-language fans, to discuss strategies and problems you have encountered through the years regarding specific expansion elements. All forms of critique – from the most joyous to the most scathing – are encouraged.
This week's element is THE COUNT OF CARCASSONNE (from Count, King & Robber [Expansion #6] or standalone as The Count of Carcassonne). This is by far one of the most contentious expansions and, indeed, it was one of the first truly aggressive ones released by Hans im Glück. The rules are that whenever a player completes a feature that they themself do not score for, they may place a Follower on quadrant of the City of Carcassonne. This is in addition to their normal Follower placement. There are four quadrants corresponding to each major feature of the game—Castles for Cities, Blacksmith for Roads, Cathedrals for Cloisters, and Market for Farms. The Count figure moves around these quadrants whenever a new Follower is deployed in the City. Now, whenever a feature is scored, any Followers in the matching quadrant may be placed on that scoring feature, unless the Count is currently in that quadrant. Thus this element provides a very sneaky way at stealing features and points from opponents.
With that long description out of the way, let us briefly discuss what it all really means. The City provides a beautiful start tile in the middle of the board. That, alone, makes this a worthy expansion even if you don't end up using the Count option. The ability to steal points from another player or, in most cases, tie with a player thus taking the same amount of points, can be contentious with some game groups. This is definitely an aggressive element and one that sometimes is hard to remember to take advantage of properly (or at all). It also is one of the few expansions that doesn't play well with two players because tying, in effect, cancels out points rather than benefits two players against others. For some, that is fine, but for others it is a waste of time. In any case, discuss your relationship with The Count of Carcassonne, as well as your strategies for taking advantage of this element.
Next Week's Topic: The Magic Portals :o –> O0
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First point to bear in mind that trying to understand the instructions for the count is likely to make your brain hurt. The rules are very subtle and you need to read and re-read them several times before you get the point.
It is very interesting as you have to plan ahead to complete a minor feature for another player then place your follower so that you may benefit from a later more valuable feature of an opponent while attempting to trap your opponents followers in part of the city.
A very clever expansion but does not fit it with the non-competitive style I like to use.
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This is not a popular one in my group. They can't get past the idea that someone can just glom on or outright steal your points without having to "work" for it. While it's true that they could do likewise there are some that will play that way and some who won't. I personally enjoy it but that is a minority view I believe.
I've got a variant half written/play tested that I called the Counting House. I'll have to get that finished some day. The intent was to take some of the teeth out of the expansion so it could actually get played in my group. ???
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the count is best used as a source for images to create your own custom tiles.
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I agree with Carcking's group. I hate the idea that someone can just be like, "Oh wait, I've got someone in the city of Carcassonne for some trivial action I performed earlier on. I think I'll somehow just put him in the city that you've been working on for the last 30 tiles and claim an equal share of the points. Thanks!"
I don't mind sharing features with other players or even losing my features to them, this is part of the fun of the game. But what makes it fun is the "work" you have to do to get a slice of the action and the luck of the draw involved while other players try to cut you out. This expansion tramples all over that.
It's true that if one player is prone to winning more points than others because of the inclusion of the Count that maybe the others should be trying to do the same. Or maybe you just shouldn't include it at all, other than perhaps as a huge starting tile.
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I think it is a little bit strange to say that you don't like the feature because it can give you the opportunity to steal points without making an effort. At the end you have to sacrifice one or more of your followers to the City of Carcassonne with the risk that someone moves the Count and your followers are stuck there until the end of the game. Secondly, anyone is allowed to move followers to the City to compete with you or to share or steal points, so it is a fair expansion. Expansions like the flier, the school, the robbers, ... also give a player the opportunity to share points without much effort. Expansions like the tower, the dragon, the princess, the plague also give you the opportunity to steal points from other players without much effort. Apart from most of the expansions mentioned above, the Count is one of the few expansions with which you can win points as a result of your own strategy (because you decided yourself to put a follower in Carcassonne) and not just because you were lucky to grab the right tile...
Generally, in the first half of a game, I use the City to share points with other players who finish a cloister or cult place. At the end of the game I'm aiming at the farms. Still it is not easy to do so as your followers can easily be blocked at the end of the game is one of your opponents is able to move the Count.
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I don't love the Count. I've only played it a couple of times and I find it a bit too complicated and 'unnatural'. In general, I love that the game and many expansions are quite simple but yet there is so much strategic depth to it, and so I find that the Count doesn't fit with this simplicity theme. But in the spirit of defending the Tower, let me offer some counterpoints to Dan's comments.
I hate the idea that someone can just be like, "Oh wait, I've got someone in the city of Carcassonne for some trivial action I performed earlier on. I think I'll somehow just put him in the city that you've been working on for the last 30 tiles and claim an equal share of the points. Thanks!"
But it's not just "Oh wait," or a trivial action - or at least not necessarily. In order to claim a share of a city via the City of Carcassonne you need to (a) complete someone else's feature, giving them points, (b) have the city quarter open so you can deploy your meeple to it, (c) sacrifice your meeple with the real possibility that you might not score any significant points with it and (d) try to make sure the Count is not in the city quarter when the city is completed (potentially by deploying another follower to the City to move the Count, thus completing another feature of another player). This is, I would say, much more difficult and strategic than the standard glomming on to someone's city, which you can complete in two moves if you do it well and have luck on your side. So I don't think you are giving enough credit here for the move(s) with the Count that ultimately lead to a share of the points. A player who repeatedly uses the Count well to earn points is benefiting from strategy more than luck.
So, to turn your example around a bit, if you're working on a 30-tile city and someone gloms on in a traditional way at the last minute to claim an equal share, how do you feel about that? Personally, I don't see why you should feel any differently. Essentially, the Count offers a second way to glom on, so as long as you're aware of the rules, then you know that it can happen and that a good player can exploit it to his/her advantage.
Dan, you're a very good player but when you don't like an expansion, you seem to discount the skill required in using the expansion (often putting it down to luck or randomness), or that you yourself haven't thought much about how to use it strategically in your favour while focusing instead on how it gets in the way of your traditional points accumulation. It's like saying, "I don't like the dragon because he eats my meeples." Well of course he does, but if you know that you're playing with the dragon to begin with, then you need to adapt to it and be prepared for this possibility and use the dragon to eat other player's meeples. If you're playing with the Count, then you know that it's a real possibility that your feature could be tied up. So, just like when using the destructive expansions, you need to guard against it by adding more meeples to your city than you would ordinarily need - or by adding a meeple to the castle quarter of the City of Carcassonne yourself for extra protection.
I think what this comes down to, at its heart, is related to the discussion we had by email a few weeks ago. What I like about expansions is how, in combination with the tile-laying nature of the game, they offer something different each time so it doesn't get boring. You have to plan your strategy differently according to what expansions you're playing with. For me that's what differentiates a Euro-game like this from the Monopoly-type games that we grew up with which are essentially the same every time. You seem to only like expansions that don't deviate much from the base game, so that's where we differ.
So maybe we'll have to agree to disagree, but I'm looking forward to your reply anyway. :)
Edit: Sorry if my tone seems a bit aggressive! I'm not trying to ruffle any feathers, I'm just after a healthy debate. :green-meeple:
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I Only play with the count if i know there are lots of options to get a follower in carcassonne
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But it's not just "Oh wait," or a trivial action - or at least not necessarily. In order to claim a share of a city via the City of Carcassonne you need to (a) complete someone else's feature, giving them points, (b) have the city quarter open so you can deploy your meeple to it, (c) sacrifice your meeple with the real possibility that you might not score any significant points with it and (d) try to make sure the Count is not in the city quarter when the city is completed (potentially by deploying another follower to the City to move the Count, thus completing another feature of another player). This is, I would say, much more difficult and strategic than the standard glomming on to someone's city, which you can complete in two moves if you do it well and have luck on your side. So I don't think you are giving enough credit here for the move(s) with the Count that ultimately lead to a share of the points. A player who repeatedly uses the Count well to earn points is benefiting from strategy more than luck.
So, to turn your example around a bit, if you're working on a 30-tile city and someone gloms on in a traditional way at the last minute to claim an equal share, how do you feel about that? Personally, I don't see why you should feel any differently. Essentially, the Count offers a second way to glom on, so as long as you're aware of the rules, then you know that it can happen and that a good player can exploit it to his/her advantage.
I totally agree ;-)
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Hey guys. Sorry if I've caused any unnecessary controversy. :(
Furthermore, I apologise if my summary of this expansion, as I see it, doesn't bear close scrutiny or isn't judged to be fair. It was never intended to be a balanced critique of The Count and all the strategy that might or might not go it; my post was literally just the first thing that came to mind when I saw that The Count was being discussed. Kind of wishing I hadn't posted anything now! :-[
I own very nearly every expansion and I've probably played about half of them. I'd love to be able to play with more of them but opportunities to play aren't as common as they used to be since kids came along! If I do try a new expansion and I don't like it for whatever reason I'll probably try it another 2 or 3 times (at most) before writing it off and trying whatever's next on my list if I/ other players generally agree that we don't like it. Some expansions are a hit straight away, or sometimes it's just particular elements of expansions that go down well, and these are the ones that get played more often and end up being better understood as a result of the extra plays.
So if there's going to be a big debate about it then it's probably best I stay out of it on account of my limited exposure to this one. I certainly respect the opinions of those who have described this expansion in a positive way, and I'm prepared to accept that on balance I'm probably wrong about it in light of those who have defended it. If I've belittled the skill required to make the most of certain other expansions as well then this is probably most likely down to a bad experience with that expansion! I expect my feeling towards The Tower in particular could be very different now if B1nder had placed a single tile (the last one) differently in an online game about 5 weeks ago! :))
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I think there is a general basic principal everyone is missing with The Count (or any element for that matter). If a gaming group agrees to include The Count of Carcassonne in their game, then they have to understand what that means. It means people will be able to sneak in and steal features, sometimes hard-fought features, from others. It means the game is going to get aggressive and mean. It does not mean that everyone has to keep playing the element in future games. That's what is so great about Carcassonne, there are so many different elements that you can mix and match to see what works best for you. Some people like to play Count and Tower and Dragon and Plague and Cult all together to make one depressingly chaotic and aggressive game. Others like the sweet simplicity of the base game with the River. It's all a matter of opinion. So don't be angry when somebody steals your feature via The Count. It's what that element is designed for. You agreed to play with it, right? If not, why are you using it? In the worst case, the game should only last 45 minutes or so, so get over it! It's a game, and I think that's something that sometimes is forgotten when especially harsh elements are used. Enjoy it or not, but it won't last forever and you don't need to hold a grudge about it.
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Furthermore, I apologise if my summary of this expansion, as I see it, doesn't bear close scrutiny or isn't judged to be fair.
I certainly respect the opinions of those who have described this expansion in a positive way, and I'm prepared to accept that on balance I'm probably wrong about it in light of those who have defended it. If I've belittled the skill required to make the most of certain other expansions as well then this is probably most likely down to a bad experience with that expansion!
Dan, I'm sorry for bringing it up and there's certainly no need for all these apologies and self-criticisms on your part. You're entitled to your opinion just like everybody else, and I agree that sometimes you play an expansion and just don't like it, either for tangible or intangible reasons. So you certainly don't need to have a justifiable or defensible reason for disliking the Count (especially as many others seem to dislike it too) - maybe it's just not your thing. And as I said, I don't like it much either for my own reasons.
It just seems to me that your view is that if someone gloms on to a feature of yours in a traditional manner, then that's good play and that player deserves their share of the points. But that if someone uses a feature like the Tower or the Count to earn points, it's trickery and they don't deserve it. And if that's the way you feel, then, again, that's fine. But if you didn't feel that way, you could enjoy more expansions :)
Luckily for all of us, Carcassonne is so wonderful that we can all enjoy it in our own way (e.g. buying 30 copies of the base game!). :meeple: :meeple:
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I agree with Carcking and Dan that THE COUNT is not my favorite expansion, due to its tendency towards aggressive play.
Additionally, like Carcking, I tried my hand at making a variant for the COUNT rules. Mine is called THE BANDIT (http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?action=downloads;sa=view;down=202). It is in some ways similar to Whaley's INVADERS fan-expansion and Gwommy's TACTICIAN fan-expansion. I was hoping to create an expansion with simpler rules than THE COUNT. I didn't succeed, as the rules are still rather involved :cP, but I hope it's still fun.
I think there is a general basic principal everyone is missing with The Count (or any element for that matter). If a gaming group agrees to include The Count of Carcassonne in their game, then they have to understand what that means. It means people will be able to sneak in and steal features, sometimes hard-fought features, from others. It means the game is going to get aggressive and mean.
Agreed.
Enjoy it or not, but it won't last forever and you don't need to hold a grudge about it.
My wife and I have had at least one serious fight over Carcassonne games we've played, and specifically over AGGRESSIVE plays that were made by one of us to GLOM ONTO or STEAL a large feature. So, I support your point to act like an adult about it, but sometimes it's easier said than done :cD.
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My wife and I have had at least one serious fight over Carcassonne games we've played, and specifically over AGGRESSIVE plays that were made by one of us to GLOM ONTO or STEAL a large feature. So, I support your point to act like an adult about it, but sometimes it's easier said than done :cD.
What he said!
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Please share these stories with us :)
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Please share these stories with us :)
I can't say more than Big Guy already said :) We also have one-two fights after the games, when (usually) I was using aggresive style and outplayed at every opportunity. I was blamed in everything, starting from "it isn't fair" to "you didn't explain the rules for the expansions in a proper way". So now we usually play in a company in order to maximally avoid such situations :D
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My wife and I usually just avoid aggressive expansions altogether and stick to the ones that she knows well. Also, I tend to be very honest with her if she asks for advice ("Where would you put this?") and will point out what her best options are, even if I make her aware of any devious schemes I'm working on in the process.
It does even things up a bit between us (last time we played I lost by about 20 points) but if she enjoys it as much as I do then we're more likely to play again sooner rather than later.
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My wife and I usually just avoid aggressive expansions altogether and stick to the ones that she knows well. Also, I tend to be very honest with her if she asks for advice ("Where would you put this?") and will point out what her best options are, even if I make her aware of any devious schemes I'm working on in the process.
It does even things up a bit between us (last time we played I lost by about 20 points) but if she enjoys it as much as I do then we're more likely to play again sooner rather than later.
Oh, that's great, danisthirty! I play like that with my family too. Normally I give them honest advice, also if it might be harmful for me. I don't like winning by all manners, I want to have fun playing. And: since I'm the one who knows the rules best, in my mind I have the obligation to give neutral advice. Also to assure fun for everyone. Still, I have to live with the prejudice of unfair play, but well: People always need someone to blame onto for their failure. :D
Most of the time we play without the count, because I don't like the fact that it gives you the possibility to steel another's possession so easily. Furthermore, the mechanic is quite complicated, so I decided not to bother my poor family with it. They struggle already with my "standard expansions", so no count for them.
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the count can be a real pain to play with.
You know what he is like
One Carcassone Tile, Two Carcassone Tiles, Three Carcassone Tiles
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Small to medium game of Carc, I'm more than happy to include the Count. But with MegaCarc, the Count loses any enjoyment for me.
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This is a bit of a session report but I think it belongs here. Last night I played a three-player game with the Count, Traders and Builders, Crop Circles II and the Spielbox halflings. This was only the third time I've played with the Count and it was definitely the best of the three. Plus, I won the game which always helps :)
Early on we were all a bit anxious to get followers into the City of Carcassonne. I put one into the castle quarter and used it to join the game's largest city which was shared by the other two players (actually, one of them closed the city with one of her halflings, which was a great move that simultaneously joined her meeple to the city, gave her quite a few trade goods, and allowed me to join the city via the City of Carcassonne).
Meanwhile, the other player was a bit too keen on the City of Carcassonne and at one stage had five of his seven meeples in there! (See the attached pic). For the rest of the game, there were 2-3 more uses of the Count mechanism to share smaller cities worth 8-10 points until the end scoring, when I used the two that I had in the market quarter to consolidate my farm. I won a 13-city farm with a pig which allowed me to win the game by about 30 points. The 'threat' of the Count was also present during the game, so it had more impact than just the times it was used.
So, my verdict on the Count is that it can be an interesting expansion if played with 3+ players (preferably 4+) and with the right combination of expansions, in particular T&B, because of the 'closing other people's cities' aspect. We won't play with the Count every time but I think in our emerging Carcassonne group we can now include it every now and then and enjoy our game with it. So thanks once again to Whaleyland for his element of the week series that helps us reevaluate expansions and think about them in a different way.
Finally, halflings are great. We use them all the time now and feel that they add another layer of strategy to the game.
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I played a great game with the Count today and by accident we discovered an excellent 'element match-up' to go with the Count and make it more interesting and enjoyable. And the secret element is ...
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German Castles!
Here are the two reasons why:
1. The count tile (and I suppose, the Wheel of Fortune tile too, for that matter) is a great way to get the German Castles out on the board right away. If you're looking to claim the castle for the potential 12 points, it makes sense to play it immediately - literally on your first turn - alongside the City of Carcassonne to give yourself a headstart on filling all the spaces needed to complete the castle. This in turn creates all sorts of interest right out of the gate, with lots of meeples on the board and bonus points available.
2. One of the problems with the Count (in my view) has always been that it's never really worth it to go into the cathedral or blacksmith quarters of the City of Carcassonne because cloisters and roads don't usually score enough points to make it a worthwhile move. But with German Castles worth 12 points as a cloister, and with the three-point bonus attached to all roads leading out of the German Castles, both of these features get a points boost and therefore become more valuable and more enticing to try to tie-up or steal via the Count mechanic.
So, in earlier posts regarding expansions that go well with the Count (which I like, even though most people don't), I focused on elements where finishing other people's features is advantageous (most obviously Traders & Builders, but also King and Robber Baron). Today's discovery is that I also think elements that boost roads and/or cloisters (e.g. German Castles, vineyards, inns) also go really well with the Count. German Monasteries might be the best of all presuming you can join one of them as an abbot at the end of the game from the cathedral quarter.
So, if your poor Count is lying buried in some corner of your Carcassonne box, get him out, dust him off, and play a game with German Castles and/or some of the other expansions I just mentioned. You might even like it :)
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Back to my Element of the Week work-through!
The Count is an interesting expansion. I like to throw it in every now and then to shake things up a bit. Much like the plague. It's not an expansion I play with every time, but it has its moments. You do have to have the right group though. Some people can take quite badly to the Count. But I quite enjoy it when we do use him!
I like the counter-pointing nature of the Count. It's a trade off. In order to make use of the Count, you need to cause another player to score without scoring yourself. I really enjoy this, I think it's excellent. On top of this, another player can easily counter you by playing their own follower to Carcassonne and moving the count. This is the risk you take with the Count. It's a powerful feature, but on more than one occasion I tried to use him only to have it constantly foiled. Other players identify that you're aiming to steal their big feature, move the count to your quarter then complete their feature!
I like to drop a follower in early, ready to make use of. Usually in the castle, and occasionally in the cathedral. It's easy to make good use of a follower in the castle. In a game with multiple players, it's great to leech off of someone else's feature! I rarely use it to steal a feature, unless I happen to already have a follower in, usually I use it to share points. If I already have a follower in the castle, and I draw an easy opportunity to finish someone else's feature, I'll drop into the blacksmith if a good road is on the board or the cathedral otherwise. I try to use the count to steal or share the biggest farm on the board if I don't own it. Manage to stick a follower in the market near the end of the game, and if no one manages to foil you, jump in on the farm! Draconian! It's a risk, but then it's easy to end up with leftover followers, might as well take your chances.
I think the Count couples nicely with Abbeys and Mayors, this gives a little more scope to the market quarter. I like to have a follower in Carcassonne each time I join an opponent's farm to my barn. That way, I get their points too! I'm also looking forward to trying the Count with the German Castles as suggested by Jungleboy!
I'm in the process of introducing Carcassonne to my best girl. We haven't quite made it to The Count yet. We've just played The Princess and the Dragon, which she wasn't a huge fan of. I meant to take a photo of the second game we played, it was a fantastic game! I've not yet got used to taking photos and posting sessions reports, but I will! I'm not confident she'll enjoy the Count... >:D