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Carc Central Community => Official Rules => Topic started by: Bumsakalaka on November 18, 2020, 02:07:36 AM

Title: Vodyanoy traps also Solovey Razboynikov trapped meeples?
Post by: Bumsakalaka on November 18, 2020, 02:07:36 AM
Imagine that you have placed Solovey Razboynikov with trapped some meeples.
Than you place Vodyanoy tile next to Solovey Razboynikov.
Which one have more strength? ;-D
Does Vodyanoy trap also all meeples from Solovey Razboynikov?
Title: Re: Vodyanoy traps also Solovey Razboynikov trapped meeples?
Post by: Meepledrone on November 18, 2020, 03:38:24 AM
Imagine that you have placed Solovey Razboynikov with trapped some meeples.
Than you place Vodyanoy tile next to Solovey Razboynikov.
Which one have more strength? ;-D

Well, it's not a matter of strength. It is a matter of action range. The Solovei Razboynik traps all the meeples present on the road crossing the tile when the tile is placed or when any other road segment is connected later by placing tiles or bridges, by moving a ferries or by placing tunnel tokens.

On the other hand, the Vodyanoy tile traps any meeples placed on the neighboring tile when the tile is placed and later on during the game. This would affect any meeples places on features placed regular tiles, but would exclude any meeples placed on especial features that are not located in a particular tile: in Exp. 8 castles, inside the city Carcarssonne and Leipzig (by extension) and on the crown of The Wheel of Fortune.

So both tiles become a permanent pole of attraction for meeples. In my mind, I picture these tiles as vortices pulling in any meeples entering their area of influence.

Does Vodyanoy trap also all meeples from Solovey Razboynikov?

The action range of the Vodyanoy tile would allow this to happen. So any meeples trapped by the Solovei Razboinik tile would be trapped by the Vodyanoy tile, if placed adjacent to it. The same would happen to meeples trapped by a bathhouse.

So this would result in a peregrination of trapped meeples towards the Vodyanoy tile...

You may want to revisit the rules and clarifications here:
https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Russian_Promos_(1st_edition) (https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Russian_Promos_(1st_edition))
Title: Re: Vodyanoy traps also Solovey Razboynikov trapped meeples?
Post by: Bumsakalaka on November 18, 2020, 05:37:15 AM
You may want to revisit the rules and clarifications here:
https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Russian_Promos_(1st_edition) (https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Russian_Promos_(1st_edition))

Of course I did it. But there was not mentioning in footnotes interaction between those two tiles.
So for game flow is better to trap for first Solovey Razboynikov and then Vodyanoy.

In other hand, what if I play with two vodyanoy tiles and I placed their tiles touching their edges :D
Title: Re: Vodyanoy traps also Solovey Razboynikov trapped meeples?
Post by: Meepledrone on November 18, 2020, 06:18:07 AM
You may want to revisit the rules and clarifications here:
https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Russian_Promos_(1st_edition) (https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Russian_Promos_(1st_edition))

Of course I did it. But there was not mentioning in footnotes interaction between those two tiles.

I'm proud of you.  ;D

Do you think a clarification on this would be necessary?

So for game flow is better to trap for first Solovey Razboynikov and then Vodyanoy.

Correct. I know why you are asking...  ;)

In other hand, what if I play with two vodyanoy tiles and I placed their tiles touching their edges :D

This is not covered in the rules, as you are supposed to play only one tile of each.... They represent singular characters, so to speak...

In the event you want to use several copies of these tiles, this may cause infinite loops or dilemmas:
* What about two Solovei Razboinyk tiles when connected to the same road network?
* What about two adjacent Vodyanoy tiles?
* What about two non-adjacent Vodyanoy tiles adjacent to the same tile? 

You may add a constraint to avoid Vodyanoy tiles to be adjacent to the same tlles but, it is more difficult to control that two Solovei Razboynink are not connected by the placement of tiles or bridges, by moving ferries or by placing tunnel tokens...

Do you want to get into that kind of trouble?  :o
Title: Re: Vodyanoy traps also Solovey Razboynikov trapped meeples?
Post by: Bumsakalaka on November 18, 2020, 07:13:26 AM
Do you want to get into that kind of trouble?  :o

Well, no, but as you know, some engine in verison 5 (anyway 5.1 was launched today) allow to set multiple tile sets from same expansions, so this was mine question.
Anyway, it can be handled by FIFO but.

I thing it has to be set some strength, or rules, which will be good to clarify also on WiCa.

Example (sorry I don't have those tiles to make picture).
So here is example in rows Solovey Razboynikov with connected 2 road tiles on right side, and below last one is Vodyanoy.
S -  -
      V

When player placed tile on right corder and enlarge road so you'll get and place meeple on plased tile. What happends?
S - - -
     V

A: Meeple is trapped by Solovey Razboynikov
B: Meeple is trapped by Vodyanoy



Title: Re: Vodyanoy traps also Solovey Razboynikov trapped meeples?
Post by: Meepledrone on November 19, 2020, 04:15:42 PM
This is a great question!

Since there is no precedence ruling, I feel divided opinions here  :o

You could say any of these:

1) Solovei Razboynik is explained before Vodyanoy, so the former takes precedence in case of conflict.

2) The meeples placed on a road will be trapped first by Solovei Razboynik

3) Due to proximity, Vodyanoy will take precendence over Solovei Razboynik

4) In case of conflict, always choose the worst cast: Vodyanoy (meeples trapped by Vodyanoy lose 2 points during final scoring.

5) The player placing the tile decides...

6) You name it...

I'll see if we can contact Hobby World and solve this issue...
Title: Re: Vodyanoy traps also Solovey Razboynikov trapped meeples?
Post by: Bumsakalaka on November 20, 2020, 02:34:33 AM
I'll see if we can contact Hobby World and solve this issue...
This will be great, do you have contact, or @Murphy013?
Title: Re: Vodyanoy traps also Solovey Razboynikov trapped meeples?
Post by: Meepledrone on November 20, 2020, 05:34:55 AM
I'll see if we can contact Hobby World and solve this issue...
This will be great, do you have contact, or @Murphy013?

Murphy013 has the contact. I'll prepare a couple of images to illustrate the question ;D
Title: Re: Vodyanoy traps also Solovey Razboynikov trapped meeples?
Post by: Bumsakalaka on November 20, 2020, 06:06:41 AM
I'll see if we can contact Hobby World and solve this issue...
This will be great, do you have contact, or @Murphy013?

Murphy013 has the contact. I'll prepare a couple of images to illustrate the question ;D
Great :)

Odoslané z SM-A202F pomocou Tapatalku

Title: Re: Vodyanoy traps also Solovey Razboynikov trapped meeples?
Post by: corinthiens13 on November 26, 2020, 04:12:34 AM
In other hand, what if I play with two vodyanoy tiles and I placed their tiles touching their edges :D

Try it, you'll see your meeples starting to levitate above the two tiles !   :))  :))  :))
Title: Re: Vodyanoy traps also Solovey Razboynikov trapped meeples?
Post by: Bumsakalaka on November 26, 2020, 06:53:40 AM
In other hand, what if I play with two vodyanoy tiles and I placed their tiles touching their edges :D

Try it, you'll see your meeples starting to levitate above the two tiles !   :))  :))  :))

They will explode and do not get back to players' supply.

NEVER :D
Title: Re: Vodyanoy traps also Solovey Razboynikov trapped meeples?
Post by: DIN0 on November 26, 2020, 12:58:51 PM
Actually, I have an idea which would be simple, useful and would still keep the curiosity of the situation.
It is derived from corinthiens13's remark
Quote
Try it, you'll see your meeples starting to levitate above the two tiles !

The meepes could indeed be kept in a superposition of sort, being on both tiles at once, just like a castle. You could indicate this by placing the meeple on its side like an abbot. Of course you can always remove it as per the rules.

(Of course I am only talking about two same tiles, not the original question as that has been answered by Meepledrone)
Title: Re: Vodyanoy traps also Solovey Razboynikov trapped meeples?
Post by: Meepledrone on November 27, 2020, 03:01:23 PM
Since both tiles are the same, it doesn't matter which Vodyanoy tile you choose as final destination for your trapped meeples. No Schrödinger meeples needed in this scenario...  ;)
Title: Re: Vodyanoy traps also Solovey Razboynikov trapped meeples?
Post by: DIN0 on November 27, 2020, 07:15:36 PM
Yes, but it would protect you against stuff like dragon and towers  >:D making it even worse, because you couldn't use them to retrieve it.
Title: Re: Vodyanoy traps also Solovey Razboynikov trapped meeples?
Post by: Bumsakalaka on November 27, 2020, 09:51:34 PM
Yes, but it would protect you against stuff like dragon and towers  >:D making it even worse, because you couldn't use them to retrieve it.
I guess, that it can be catched by towers. But dragon like them, and they are not protect agains dragon, or?
Title: Re: Vodyanoy traps also Solovey Razboynikov trapped meeples?
Post by: Bumsakalaka on December 09, 2020, 02:17:04 AM
I think, that if Meeple is traped in any trap - aka Vodyanoy, Solovei Razboynik or Bads (Barber Surgeons), any other trap "retrap" those meeples.
What do you think?
Meeple in trap is not on Board, it's in transparent Sphere located arround trap and in some cases there is a gap when it's possible to escape, but! another trap is not opening that gap ;-)
Title: Re: Vodyanoy traps also Solovey Razboynikov trapped meeples?
Post by: Meepledrone on December 09, 2020, 05:11:22 AM
This could be a good approach but it doesn't solve all the cases.

This issue only affects Vodyanoy, since it affects adjacent tiles...

Who traps the meeple in this case? We have no answer yet... Could we consider that Vodyanoy is more powerful?

Title: Re: Vodyanoy traps also Solovey Razboynikov trapped meeples?
Post by: Bumsakalaka on December 09, 2020, 12:49:39 PM
Yes, this is good situation example.
Anywa, HobbyWorld answered?
Title: Re: Vodyanoy traps also Solovey Razboynikov trapped meeples?
Post by: Meepledrone on December 09, 2020, 01:06:10 PM
Not yet! Sorry.
Title: Re: Vodyanoy traps also Solovey Razboynikov trapped meeples?
Post by: Bumsakalaka on December 09, 2020, 01:27:49 PM
Well According to rules I will go to Solovey
Solovei: If followers occupy a road that goes through the Solovei Razboynik tile (or they occupy roads that are connected to that tile later on in the game), players must move them onto the tile.
Vodyanoy: When a player places this tile adjacent to one or more tiles on the board, all followers from the adjacent tiles are moved onto the Vodyanoy tile. All followers placed on any tile adjacent to the Vodyanoy tile in future turns will also be moved onto the tile.

So, by rules, Solovei has to be solved first, because of wording with "must". Vodyanoy dosn't use this direction.

What do you think?

Title: Re: Vodyanoy traps also Solovey Razboynikov trapped meeples?
Post by: Meepledrone on December 09, 2020, 04:14:23 PM
I translated the rules in Russian with deepl.com where you can play with translated words...

The "must move" from Solovei Razboynik can be changed to "will move". And the "are moved" from Vodyanoy can slaso be changed to "will move"... Cannot tell how direct or forced this can be in both cases.  :-\

I also tried the translation tool on Yandex (Russian Google of sorts):
* "must move" is translated as "are required to move", a little softer
* "are moved" is transalated as "are moved"

Don't know if we have a Russian membee online that can help us...

Here you are the text for both expansions:

Solovei Razboynik:
Quote
Если на дорогах, проходящих через квадрат «соловья-разбойника», выставлены (или впоследстви оказываются) фишки, игроки обязаны переставить их на квадрат «соловья-разбойника».
Фишки остаются на квадрате «соловья-разбойника» до конца игры.
В свой ход, вместо выставления фишки, игрок может вернуть свою фишку с квадрата «соловья-разбойника» в запас.

Vodyanoy:
Quote
Когда кто-то из игроков присоединит квадрат «водяного» к уже выложенному квадрату, все фишки с соседних квадратов перемещаются на квадрат «водяного». В процесе игры также все фишки с соседних квадратов будут перемещаться на квадрат «водяного».
Фишки остаются на квадрате «водяного» до конца игры. В конце игры при подсчёте очков вы теряете 2 победных очка За каждую фишку, находящуюся на квадрате «водяного». В свой ход, вместо выставления фишки, игрок может вернуть свою фишку с квадрата «водяного» в запас.
Title: Re: Vodyanoy traps also Solovey Razboynikov trapped meeples?
Post by: Bumsakalaka on December 10, 2020, 03:25:43 AM
Solovei rules used word:
Quote
обязаны
This means are obligated / must.

So but another question is
Can dragon move to trap tile and eat all of meeples trapped there?

By logic of trap I will not allow it, but I didn't find any information about it in rules of Russian Promos, nor in Dragon C1/C2.
Question about it is also for Barber Surgeons which is also kind of trap.
Title: Re: Vodyanoy traps also Solovey Razboynikov trapped meeples?
Post by: corinthiens13 on December 10, 2020, 04:16:19 AM

Can dragon move to trap tile and eat all of meeples trapped there?

By logic of trap I will not allow it, but I didn't find any information about it in rules of Russian Promos, nor in Dragon C1/C2.
Question about it is also for Barber Surgeons which is also kind of trap.

I'd say a dragon can trap and eat such meeples. Dragon isn't part of the figures that can be trapped, so a dragon can go on solovei or vodyanoy's tiles, as well as on a bathhouse's tile.

And a dragon eats every flesh made figures on every tiles he goes on, so he eats those on solovei, vodyanoy and bathhouse. I'd apply this for tower capture too  ???

Also, can a fairy be associated with a meeple on solovei/vodyanoy/bathhouse? And can they receive points from circus? Are they counted for Darmstadt churches bonus?
I'd say yes to all of those questions, a comment in WICA's tower page tends to this conclusion.
Quote
all meeples on neighbouring tiles should be considered no matter the feature they are on (a regular feature, a castle, a tower, a bathhouse, a Vodyanoy lake, a Solovei Razboynik tree...)
Anyway, a clarification is missing in WICA for the interaction between dragon/tower/fairy/circus/Darmstadt and solovei/vodyanoy/bathhouse.
Title: Re: Vodyanoy traps also Solovey Razboynikov trapped meeples?
Post by: Bumsakalaka on December 10, 2020, 06:22:43 AM
Well, I think it will need som open interpretation of the rules.

Meeple in Castle, City of Carcassonne, Leipzig are protected from Dragon attack.

Meeple on Tower is not in similar possition like meeple in Trap.

Darmstaft Bonus is only for meeples in Church, so after traping them, no one get's bonus.

Big Top scoring is different situation BUT very interesting issue ;-)
Title: Re: Vodyanoy traps also Solovey Razboynikov trapped meeples?
Post by: corinthiens13 on December 10, 2020, 07:18:43 AM
Well, I think it will need som open interpretation of the rules.

Meeple in Castle, City of Carcassonne, Leipzig are protected from Dragon attack.
Yes, as well as WoF's crown, because those are not considered as tiles, they are not only protected, the dragon can't go inside those features.

Darmstaft Bonus is only for meeples in Church, so after traping them, no one get's bonus.
Darmstadt bonus is for "the player who has the most followers on the church tile and the 8 surrounding tiles". If yellow owns the church and has no other meeple around, but red has two meeples on the neighboring tiles, red gets 3 bonus points from the church, even if he has no meeple on the church itself. But what if both of red's meeples are on Solovei Razboynik?
Title: Re: Vodyanoy traps also Solovey Razboynikov trapped meeples?
Post by: Meepledrone on December 10, 2020, 12:34:26 PM
Any meeple on a tile is at the mercy of the dragon, towers and Vodyanoy...

Those special areas unaware of the tile grid, so to speak, become unreachable: an Exp. 8 castle, the crown of WoF, the cities of Carcassonne and Leipzig, the school. These are the space-time bubbles we've got. ;)