Poll

How would you describe your view of the difference in art styles?

C1 Purist - I don’t want any C2 visuals clashing with my C1 beauty.
26 (27.7%)
C1 Converter - I will buy minimal C2* and convert it to C1 aesthetics.
14 (14.9%)
C1 Preferrer - But I will mix in minimal C2* as needed/desired.
9 (9.6%)
Dual-Moder - I have both styles; we play one or the other, but usually not both together.
20 (21.3%)
Mix/Matcher - I don’t care about aesthetics, it all plays.
6 (6.4%)
C2 Preferrer - But I will mix in a few C1 things (if affordable/cool/essential/whatever).
3 (3.2%)
C2 Converter - I will convert my C1 stuff to C2 aesthetics.
2 (2.1%)
C2 Purist - I don’t want any C1 visuals clashing with my C2 beauty.
14 (14.9%)
Other - explain in thread.
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 94

Author Topic: Thoughts on converting C2 tiles to C1 artwork style  (Read 25713 times)

Offline Just a Bill

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Re: Thoughts on converting C2 tiles to C1 artwork style
« Reply #45 on: August 04, 2017, 01:57:00 PM »
Unfortunately this is what happens when discussions go on on two different platforms at the same time. So maybe the centralisation of conversion projects on CarcF also can be a chance to funnel al the creativity and the ideas of all of us in order to create a high quality expansion.

That would be my hope as well. It's not going to be easy trying to navigate and communicate in a German forum, but as you say, at least HiG is allowing these projects to happen and having to do it in a non-native forum is better than not getting to do it at all.

Nevertheless, congrats to your great conversion attempts Just a Bill! They look gorgeous! Also congrats to CarcCZ member Chmura for his attempt (also if the squares look a bit too corn fieldish for me  ;) ) I also uploaded what came out during the conversion discussion on CarcF.

Thank you for your kind words.  (EDIT: I have updated this post based on your reply below.)

While I agree with you on the circus grounds looking too bright yellow and crop-circly (and also too similar to Fair spaces, which I think are one of the weakest visual presentations in the game), PhilippJConrad's efforts overall are better and more artistic than my own. I like his two-tone dirt under the acrobats (I intentionally simplified this aspect in my effort to strike a "Carc I tone," and because I didn't like how it looked on the Carc II tiles — but PhilippJConrad's implementation is very nice). His small details like horses and bales are excellent, and I much prefer the tone of his circus tents (mine are too bright and cartoonish). He also followed the "less is more" rule, whereas I was spamming as many experimental elements onto the tile as possible.

Thus, what I would recommend (for whatever my vote is worth) is going in the direction PhilippJConrad has pioneered here, but toning down the brightness of the "cornish" areas. Is there anything of value to be incorporated from my own efforts? Well, maybe it's worth adding the circle of wooden tent-spikes, but honestly I'm not invested in that detail (and their absence does nicely reduce clutter). I do like having a higher variety of different striping patterns on the tents, but that is also not a big deal.

Honestly I think maybe I've really only contributed two things of potential value:
  • Adding the color-coordinated flags atop some, but not all, of the tents. (Obviously I stole these from a Hill, cleaned off the letter C since it would be far too small and repetitive in this context, and then applied color effects.)

  • I really like the little barrels (which come from the T&B wine tokens).
Oh, and the watermarks should have the appropriate level of transparency.



Just A Bill, if you want, I guess it could be a good idea to also show the file of your conversion attempt on CarcF. Once it is there, people can look at it while we wait for the permission and have it in mind when the discussion starts again.  :yellow-meeple:

So a few questions then:
  • Just to confirm, you believe it would be acceptable to post my image now, even though the conversion discussion is currently on hold pending approval?

  • With the text I write on CarcF (in English), should I also include a googled German translation? Or just let others use their own preferred translation methods?

  • As you can see above, I have already replaced my weak attempt at creating a Carc-I garden with one of the excellent new gardens from the officially approved Abbot conversion. Do you think it would be acceptable to post that version to the CarcF forum?
« Last Edit: July 18, 2018, 08:05:22 AM by Just a Bill »
My stuff: The Caverns of Carcassonne | Wheel of Fortune versions | True North (wind roses) | Icon facelifts | Converting CII to CI | Signposts & the Château | The Vault | Riverboats & the Whirlpool | trade list

Offline seli82

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Re: Thoughts on converting C2 tiles to C1 artwork style
« Reply #46 on: August 04, 2017, 10:55:26 PM »
Hallo Just a Bill,
wenn du deine Grafik in der gleichen Auflösung wie hier postet, ist es OK.
Wenn du magst, kannst du auch noch rote Streifen oder ähnliches darauf machen wenn du dir mal nicht sicher bist.

Du kannst auf CarcF englisch schreiben, das ist kein Problem. Ich schreibe hier im CarC ja auch auf deutsch. Du musst keine Übersetzung einfügen.


Offline Just a Bill

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Re: Thoughts on converting C2 tiles to C1 artwork style
« Reply #47 on: August 05, 2017, 07:07:47 AM »
[translation by Google]

Hello Just a Bill,
If you post your graphics in the same resolution as here, it is OK.
If you like, you can also make red stripes or similar on it if you are not sure.

You can write to CarcF in English, which is not a problem. I write here in the CarC also in German. You do not have to insert a translation.

Thank you (merit for you and Safari). I will try to find some time to get caught up on the Manege Frei thread over there.

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Re: Thoughts on converting C2 tiles to C1 artwork style
« Reply #48 on: August 05, 2017, 07:30:54 AM »

I should probably break my responses into two or three posts, so I'll just start with my question for you: Do you still think we need to hide the images we've added to this thread? That would certainly make it harder for new readers to follow. I intentionally limited what I posted, to keep it from being usable in any tile-making effort: I posted only two of 20 draft, sample tiles (I've only even created about four so far — an effort which is now on hold), and I deliberately downsampled them such that if they were blown up to actual tile resolution they would look lame and blurry.

Thanks for considering this Bill.  As I understand our existing agreement and requirement from HiG, the German publisher; they do not wish for their existing tiles to be presented in high-quality.  There aren't many guidelines on this.  I refer to JCloisterZone which has existed for some time; so I consider this the maximum size to present a tile which belongs to HiG (or one of the regional publishers).  JCloisterZone's tiles are presented at 300x300.  I had a quick check and it looks like your tiles are 250x250, which is 1/6th smaller.
So to reiterate:  it's only a concern for presenting tiles which have been published, not fan-tiles.  Having checked, I think the 250x250 resolution is appropriate in this case but no guidelines have been formally presented.  So, for the time being at least, I think we're ok.

Thanks for checking  :(y)

Offline Safari

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Re: Thoughts on converting C2 tiles to C1 artwork style
« Reply #49 on: August 05, 2017, 10:55:13 AM »
Just a Bill, first of all thanks for your long reply!

Unfortunately there is just one error, I have to tell you. Actually, you mixed up the creators of the different tiles.  ;D Chmura is the creative person from the Czech forums. He created the attempt with the watermark "carcassonne cze forum" on it. I referred to that one, when I said that the Fair spaces look to similar to crop fields. The attempt you labelled with Chmuras name in your nice overview is from our member PhilippJConrad. On CarcF also other members tried to create versions, but the trickiest part always was the appearance of the circus ground.

However, you are right, that the circus ground of Philipp's version look very similar to the fair spaces. On the contrary, maybe this is what made his tiles look like original tiles from classic Carc, because it created some kind of uniformity with the catapult spaces and the bazaar spaces. Still, I really like your attempt to. As far as I can see, you used the city grounds and lightened them up, didn't you?

During our discussion first we made tiles, which were similar to the Carc II original, but then compared them to classic Carc tiles and found out that they are way too fussy, so we radically reduced the things on the tiles. Just as you did with the circus grounds too. What I really like are the flags atop your tents and the little barrels! We should really think about trying them on Philipp's tiles too (once we are allowed to do more work on the project...).

You asked, if it would be acceptable to post your image on CarcF, now that the discussion is on hold. I'd say yes. I personally don't consider this as "working on a conversion". For me it is more a general study of material and design on what is a classic Carcassonne tile, and what are its characteristics. :) I'd even go as far as saying that it would be better to post the thoughts made here on CarcF now, in order that other people know what people here came up with and can think about that too. I'm worried that, once we get the OK from HiG, it might be too late for your ideas to be included. As we say in German, we have to "let the ideas ripen" in our heads. If you want, also I can post a summary of the discussion here on CarcF, including your version.

If you want, you can include a German translation, but you don't have too. I personally would do so, since I consider it being very polite, but no one on CarcF expects you to do so. Normally someone else translates (personally or with an online program) a post, if it is only in English. Just the way you did with Seli's post. Don't worry too much about that.  8)

You even can use the version with the gardens of the approved Abbot conversion. By the way I want to pay credit to CarcF member Violet, who created these wonderful gardens some time ago.
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Offline Just a Bill

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Re: Thoughts on converting C2 tiles to C1 artwork style
« Reply #50 on: August 06, 2017, 06:08:43 AM »
Actually, you mixed up the creators of the different tiles. ... The attempt you labelled with Chmuras name in your nice overview is from our member PhilippJConrad.

Oh, I am very sorry about that. Thank you for correcting me; I have updated my post with proper attribution to Philipp.

Still, I really like your attempt to. As far as I can see, you used the city grounds and lightened them up, didn't you?

Yes, that's correct: some adjustments to brightness and contrast.

What I really like are the flags atop your tents and the little barrels! We should really think about trying them on Philipp's tiles too (once we are allowed to do more work on the project...).

I have now seen the low-res PDF of Philipp's proposed tileset. My first reaction was that it needed more variety; the tents are red and blue on every tile, and all the tiles of each type (circus or acrobat) have the exact same elements.

But then I realized I was looking at this through the biased lens of the C-II circus tiles and my own conversion tests. Pure classic C-I often does not use a lot of variety from tile to tile. Now things like cities, roads, and ferries do have a lot of variations, of course, but the closest thematic comparisons for the circus are of course found in Catapult and BC&B, where we find that every fair is identical and every bazaar is identical. So in that sense, Philipp's work is a nice compromise — his tiles have a strong feeling of regularity but he does mix around the placement of the elements. And perhaps that is just the right approach?

I'm worried that, once we get the OK from HiG, it might be too late for your ideas to be included.

At first I thought you meant the conversion was finished and waiting approval, but after reading the thread over there that doesn't seem to be the case. Do you just mean that the German community is already "settled" on what the tiles should look like and anxious to finish the conversion? Surely if people felt that adding some flags and barrels was beneficial, it would not be a difficult or time-consuming process.

If you want, also I can post a summary of the discussion here on CarcF, including your version.

I see that Seli has already done that, so it seems there's nothing for me to add over there.

You even can use the version with the gardens of the approved Abbot conversion. By the way I want to pay credit to CarcF member Violet, who created these wonderful gardens some time ago.

Thank you very much for this information. I will certainly credit Violet for her (is female correct? that would be the norm in this culture, but I do not want to make assumptions and I could not tell from the profile over there) excellent work. In fact, I have just posted a fan-expansion here called Signposts and the Château, which includes one of her beautiful fruit gardens.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2017, 11:24:38 AM by Just a Bill, Reason: added link to S&C fanspansion »

Offline Safari

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Re: Thoughts on converting C2 tiles to C1 artwork style
« Reply #51 on: August 07, 2017, 08:25:25 AM »
I have now seen the low-res PDF of Philipp's proposed tileset. My first reaction was that it needed more variety; the tents are red and blue on every tile, and all the tiles of each type (circus or acrobat) have the exact same elements.

But then I realized I was looking at this through the biased lens of the C-II circus tiles and my own conversion tests. Pure classic C-I often does not use a lot of variety from tile to tile. Now things like cities, roads, and ferries do have a lot of variations, of course, but the closest thematic comparisons for the circus are of course found in Catapult and BC&B, where we find that every fair is identical and every bazaar is identical. So in that sense, Philipp's work is a nice compromise — his tiles have a strong feeling of regularity but he does mix around the placement of the elements. And perhaps that is just the right approach?
These were exactly our thoughts. We had other more diverse and colourful versions before, but when comparing them to other classic Carc tiles, we found out that they didn't fit at all. So we tried to find out about the true character of classic Carc tiles and came to the same results as you did.

I'm worried that, once we get the OK from HiG, it might be too late for your ideas to be included.
At first I thought you meant the conversion was finished and waiting approval, but after reading the thread over there that doesn't seem to be the case. Do you just mean that the German community is already "settled" on what the tiles should look like and anxious to finish the conversion? Surely if people felt that adding some flags and barrels was beneficial, it would not be a difficult or time-consuming process.
At first I also thought that the conversion was already finished, but after rereading the related posts I found out that we need two approvals by HiG, one for starting a conversion project and one for publishing the final results. And since we are still missing other parts of the expansion (e.g. circus tokens) and the rules, the project can't be finished yet.

Thank you very much for this information. I will certainly credit Violet for her (is female correct? that would be the norm in this culture, but I do not want to make assumptions and I could not tell from the profile over there) excellent work. In fact, I have just posted a fan-expansion here called Signposts and the Château, which includes one of her beautiful fruit gardens.
To be honest, I also don't know for sure. I always struggle if Violet is a man or a woman. The only thing I can tell you is, that I sent her a parcel once and it was directed to a man. So I guess he would be correct. Still, this also might be the name of her husband...  :o
I guess the best thing would be to ask him/her him-/herself. Then you could also ask if it is ok for him/her if you use the gardens for your own expansions (if you haven't done already). I don't think that Violet would be angry about that, but one never knows... We just had the case that another CarcF member was quite upset that his creations for one of his expansions were used by a person from the Czech Carcassonne Forum without his permission.

Offline Just a Bill

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Re: Thoughts on converting C2 tiles to C1 artwork style
« Reply #52 on: August 07, 2017, 09:26:03 AM »
since we are still missing other parts of the expansion (e.g. circus tokens) and the rules, the project can't be finished yet.

The circus tokens are an interesting point of discussion. I am not a fan of the Carc artwork change in general, but in this particular case I was planning to use the actual circus tokens from MF/UtBT with my converted tiles, for three reasons.

(1) I want the tokens to be clearly indistinguishable from each other, since they must be drawn blindly. If I made homebrews they probably would not appear identical from the back and I would need yet another bag (ick).

(2) Mixing in a small amount of new art from these particular tokens does not offend my amateur and feeble artistic sensibilities. I guess this is for two reasons. First, the backs are pretty generic and the fronts are a series of large animals that have no counterpart in the classic game. And second, neither the fronts nor the backs remain visible on the map. Only one back is in play at a time and it's covered up by the big top figure, and a front is visible only long enough to score the animal and then it's removed.* So having the "wrong" art style on these tokens would actually be better than using a C-II tower or a C-II scoreboard, and even those wouldn't kill it for me. It's tile mixing :P that destroys the game's beauty, because that's what we stand back and admire at the end of the game. Everything else can be seen as just a temporary prop in building that gorgeous map.

(3) We already need the ringmasters and the big top, so requiring ownership of the tokens places no additional "burden" on the player. And honestly, thinking about the publisher's perspective, it's a good thing to encourage or even require players to buy the actual physical product. If sales of C-II products start dropping off because a bunch of players are always just downloading the "free old-art versions," then HiG may stop allowing the conversions to take place. I'd rather spend the US $17.99 on Under the Big Top (even though I have no use for the tiles) and encourage others to do the same, to help ensure that Carcassonne continues in good health and that artists who have proven their skill are allowed to keep converting to the C-I art style everything that I will care about in the future.

Has this been discussed on CarcF?


* As a game designer, I don't really like the fiddliness of putting the circus tokens on the board. You could just as easily flip one over from the stack when a circus needs to be scored and call it a day. They could have been tiles, or mini playing cards, or even a par of special dice to join the ranks of the flying machine die. I suppose maybe the on-board placement might bump up the tension for some players just a bit, or it might help the few who could maybe forget where the just-placed circus was while they're resolving the previous one ... but in general it feels like busy-work because it's not necessary for gameplay. And once those tokens have received some wear, having one sit out on the table may start to work against the need to have its value remain hidden.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2017, 09:34:06 AM by Just a Bill »

Offline wolnic

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Re: Thoughts on converting C2 tiles to C1 artwork style
« Reply #53 on: August 07, 2017, 10:14:43 AM »
To be honest, I also don't know for sure. I always struggle if Violet is a man or a woman. The only thing I can tell you is, that I sent her a parcel once and it was directed to a man. So I guess he would be correct. Still, this also might be the name of her husband...  :o
I guess the best thing would be to ask him/her him-/herself. Then you could also ask if it is ok for him/her if you use the gardens for your own expansions (if you haven't done already).

It's a "he"! I asked to use the trees from the orchard as part of my "Bountiful Autumn" expansion, and for confirmation whether it was original artwork, or came from original Carc tiles. I wonder if, like Paul (who used to be known as "yellow") it's just the colour he always played with ...
AutumnForest (C2), Catch Of The Day (C1/2/WD), Cliffs&W'falls (C1/2), Coast (C1/2), FishHuts (C2), Fluvium (C2), NewForest (C2), Harvest (C1/2), Stone Circles (C1/2), Wells (C2), Jordan River 2 (AotC), River I/II (GR)
Devt: Sakura (C2), WinterEdge (C1), WinterCoast (WD/WE) and others

Offline seli82

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Re: Thoughts on converting C2 tiles to C1 artwork style
« Reply #54 on: August 07, 2017, 12:05:47 PM »
We just had the case that another CarcF member was quite upset that his creations for one of his expansions were used by a person from the Czech Carcassonne Forum without his permission.

Sie lernen einfach nicht dazu. Da schaut man auf die Internetseite und was findet man die eigene Grafik.
Und jetzt haben sie es schon wieder mit einer Grafik von PresetM so gemacht.  :(

Offline Decar

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Re: Thoughts on converting C2 tiles to C1 artwork style
« Reply #55 on: August 08, 2017, 03:34:06 AM »
Very rude - especially not to reference the original author.

We've told them before that their behaviour is unacceptable.

Better send the boys around  C:-) C:-) C:-) C:-) C:-)

Offline danisthirty

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Re: Thoughts on converting C2 tiles to C1 artwork style
« Reply #56 on: August 08, 2017, 03:42:57 AM »
I recall that such behaviour (i.e. stealing others work and making it available for download without referencing the original author) was even encouraged and rewarded when the site was first finding its feet. We were given assurance that this would no longer be the case but it seems as though this has been forgotten...

Offline Elfew

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Re: Thoughts on converting C2 tiles to C1 artwork style
« Reply #57 on: August 08, 2017, 07:11:01 AM »
Please send me the links to these "stolen" expansions - I would like to make things clear. I cannot find any, all was fixed after our discussion over PMs.

It is really rude to abuse someone without any evidence!!! @Decar @danisthirty So give me the evidence or dont say these s**** publicly.

Offline Safari

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Re: Thoughts on converting C2 tiles to C1 artwork style
« Reply #58 on: August 08, 2017, 07:20:32 AM »
since we are still missing other parts of the expansion (e.g. circus tokens) and the rules, the project can't be finished yet.

The circus tokens are an interesting point of discussion. I am not a fan of the Carc artwork change in general, but in this particular case I was planning to use the actual circus tokens from MF/UtBT with my converted tiles, for three reasons.

(1) I want the tokens to be clearly indistinguishable from each other, since they must be drawn blindly. If I made homebrews they probably would not appear identical from the back and I would need yet another bag (ick).

(2) Mixing in a small amount of new art from these particular tokens does not offend my amateur and feeble artistic sensibilities. I guess this is for two reasons. First, the backs are pretty generic and the fronts are a series of large animals that have no counterpart in the classic game. And second, neither the fronts nor the backs remain visible on the map. Only one back is in play at a time and it's covered up by the big top figure, and a front is visible only long enough to score the animal and then it's removed.* So having the "wrong" art style on these tokens would actually be better than using a C-II tower or a C-II scoreboard, and even those wouldn't kill it for me. It's tile mixing :P that destroys the game's beauty, because that's what we stand back and admire at the end of the game. Everything else can be seen as just a temporary prop in building that gorgeous map.

(3) We already need the ringmasters and the big top, so requiring ownership of the tokens places no additional "burden" on the player. And honestly, thinking about the publisher's perspective, it's a good thing to encourage or even require players to buy the actual physical product. If sales of C-II products start dropping off because a bunch of players are always just downloading the "free old-art versions," then HiG may stop allowing the conversions to take place. I'd rather spend the US $17.99 on Under the Big Top (even though I have no use for the tiles) and encourage others to do the same, to help ensure that Carcassonne continues in good health and that artists who have proven their skill are allowed to keep converting to the C-I art style everything that I will care about in the future.

Has this been discussed on CarcF?


* As a game designer, I don't really like the fiddliness of putting the circus tokens on the board. You could just as easily flip one over from the stack when a circus needs to be scored and call it a day. They could have been tiles, or mini playing cards, or even a par of special dice to join the ranks of the flying machine die. I suppose maybe the on-board placement might bump up the tension for some players just a bit, or it might help the few who could maybe forget where the just-placed circus was while they're resolving the previous one ... but in general it feels like busy-work because it's not necessary for gameplay. And once those tokens have received some wear, having one sit out on the table may start to work against the need to have its value remain hidden.

Quite interesting points, indeed! As far as I can say, the resentments against Carc II on CarcF are much stronger then here. So sometimes using any part that is not Doris Matthäus artwork is considered a sacrilege. I personally don't like the animals much, because for me "Circus" has nothing to do with the epoch of the game, so I also like the idea of creating more appropriate tokens.

I also will buy Vanilla Carc II and Manege frei!, if I make classic Carc Versions of the Abbot and the 10th expansion. This for sure. Because I agree in the point, that we should support the publisher with his games, if he gives us the possibility to convert his expansions (and also because I need the wood pieces). Though, I'm not sure if the classic download version of Manege frei! can really replace buying the expansion, with or without the tokens. One will always have to buy the game if one wants the wooden pieces. Cundco doesn't give them away separately...

Offline danisthirty

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Re: Thoughts on converting C2 tiles to C1 artwork style
« Reply #59 on: August 08, 2017, 07:20:42 AM »
It is really rude to abuse someone without any evidence!!! @Decar @danisthirty So give me the evidence or dont say these s**** publicly.

You said yourself, in the same post, that:

all was fixed after our discussion over PMs.

Just because "all was fixed" (according to you) doesn't mean it didn't happen. if it didn't happen, what was fixed?


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