Author Topic: Questions  (Read 77665 times)

Offline NGC 54

  • Marquis
  • ***
  • Posts: 541
  • Merit: 10
  • HiG must provide clarifications for all expansions
    • View Profile
    • WikiCarpedia user page
Re: Questions
« Reply #255 on: April 26, 2020, 02:27:45 AM »
What happens (monastery and shrine) if you remove the monk/heretic (abbot or message 8 )?
« Last Edit: April 26, 2020, 03:31:27 AM by Carcassonne93 »
I translate WikiCarpedia in Romanian (https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Main_Page/ro). I have 47,200+ edits at WICA. My WICA user page: https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/User:NGC_54. Romanian translation of WICA: https://wikicarpedia.com/car/Special:LanguageStats?language=ro&x=D#sortable:3=desc.

Offline Meepledrone

  • Owner
  • Chatelain Grand Officier
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 6292
  • Merit: 456
  • It is full of... Meeples!!!
    • View Profile
Re: Questions
« Reply #256 on: April 26, 2020, 03:43:49 AM »
[217.] What happens (monastery and shrine) if you remove the monk/heretic (abbot or message 8)?

As I commented in reply #209, a challenge requires a monk and a heretic on adjacent features. So no meeple on one of them means no challenge.

If you check the rules, an ongoing challenge may have several outcomes:
* The challenge is interrupted (ends without resolution) if one of the figure is removed (a dragon, a removed abbot, message 8 resolution... you name it)
* The challenge ends and one of the meeples wins: one meeple scores 9 points, the other scores 0 points, and both meeples are removed.
* The challenge ends with a tie: both meeples score 9 points and then they are removed.

Normally the challenge is declared with the direct placement of a figure on a newly placed tile. When a challenge is interrupted, it can be restarted with the placement of a new meeple on the vacated monastery or shrine by means of a magic portal or a flying machine.

In a nutshell, a challenge needs the presence of meeples on both features. If one is missing, no challenge can be triggered or, if started, it ends without resolution.

You can review the rules here:
* Basic challenge rules: http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Count,_King_and_Robber#2._Placing_a_meeple_as_a_heretic
* Additional interactions: http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Count,_King_and_Robber#The_cultists_2
Questions about rules? Check WICA: wikicarpedia.com

Offline NGC 54

  • Marquis
  • ***
  • Posts: 541
  • Merit: 10
  • HiG must provide clarifications for all expansions
    • View Profile
    • WikiCarpedia user page
Re: Questions
« Reply #257 on: April 26, 2020, 04:03:10 AM »
But you receive points if you remove the abbot or use the message 8?

Offline Meepledrone

  • Owner
  • Chatelain Grand Officier
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 6292
  • Merit: 456
  • It is full of... Meeples!!!
    • View Profile
Re: Questions
« Reply #258 on: April 26, 2020, 04:21:22 AM »
(217.) But you receive points if you remove the abbot or use the message 8?

Yes, the usual ones for those actions and the challenge stops. This means that the remaining monk or heretic will score its feature according to the usual rules.

Offline NGC 54

  • Marquis
  • ***
  • Posts: 541
  • Merit: 10
  • HiG must provide clarifications for all expansions
    • View Profile
    • WikiCarpedia user page
Re: Questions
« Reply #259 on: April 26, 2020, 02:38:18 PM »
What happens if you remove an red abbot from a monastery occupied by this abbot and a blue big meeple?

Offline Meepledrone

  • Owner
  • Chatelain Grand Officier
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 6292
  • Merit: 456
  • It is full of... Meeples!!!
    • View Profile
Re: Questions
« Reply #260 on: April 26, 2020, 04:39:04 PM »
[218.] What happens if you remove an red abbot from a monastery occupied by this abbot and a blue big meeple?

There is no written rule for this interaction, but if you check the Order of Play you can see that, when you remove an abbot from a monastery, you are carrying out the scoring of a figure in phase 2. Placing a meeple so no majority is applied. We are not scoring a feature like in phase 3. Scoring a feature.

In this scenario, you will remove and score the red abbot, and the blue large meeple will stay on the monastery until:
* The feature is completed with the blue large meeple and it is scored
* The blue large meeple is removed from the monastery as a result of an action associated to an expansions that allows to remove it (scoring it or not)
* The feature ends up incomplete with the blue large meeple and it is scored at the end of the game

In the case you keep both figures on the monastery until it is scored, Blue would have the majority and would score the monastery. Red's abbot would score 0 points for the monastery.

More than one figure on the same monastery can happen when playing with Mini #1 - The Flier (Flying Machines). The rules didn't cover this case but monasteries are assumed to apply majority as any other feature when scored. Monasteries are usually occupied by only one meeple. When flying a meeple to a special monasteries (German monasteries, Dutch & Belgian monasteries or Japanese buildings) you will have the option to places it as:
* A monk on an incomplete monastery
* An abbot on an incomplete or even complete monastery.

Placing meeples as abbots on a spacial monastery would open additional scenarios where both the red abbot meeple and the blue large meeple could be independently placed as monks or as abbots. An abbot meeple could be placed as a monk or as an abbot. So if you remove the abbot meeple placed as an abbot, you would score it as you would at the end of the game (but no majority applied).

You can revisit the Order of Play here:
* Order of Play: http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Order_of_Play
* Scoring rules for abbot meeple: http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/The_Abbot#3._Scoring_with_the_Abbot
* Mini #1 and special monasteries: http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Monasteries#The_Flying_Machines

Offline Vital Pluymers

  • Duke
  • *
  • Posts: 192
  • Merit: 3
  • The King
    • View Profile
Re: Questions
« Reply #261 on: April 27, 2020, 03:44:41 AM »
[218.] What happens if you remove an red abbot from a monastery occupied by this abbot and a blue big meeple?

There is no written rule for this interaction, but if you check the Order of Play you can see that, when you remove an abbot from a monastery, you are carrying out the scoring of a figure in phase 2. Placing a meeple so no majority is applied. We are not scoring a feature like in phase 3. Scoring a feature.

In this scenario, you will remove and score the red abbot, and the blue large meeple will stay on the monastery until:
* The feature is completed with the blue large meeple and it is scored
* The blue large meeple is removed from the monastery as a result of an action associated to an expansions that allows to remove it (scoring it or not)
* The feature ends up incomplete with the blue large meeple and it is scored at the end of the game

In the case you keep both figures on the monastery until it is scored, Blue would have the majority and would score the monastery. Red's abbot would score 0 points for the monastery.


You can revisit the Order of Play here:
* Order of Play: http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Order_of_Play
* Scoring rules for abbot meeple: http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/The_Abbot#3._Scoring_with_the_Abbot
* Mini #1 and special monasteries: http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Monasteries#The_Flying_Machines

Interesting case here would be when Red leaves his abbot there until the round in which Red completes the monastery. The wording in WICA is not completely clear on this special case. The correct interpretation imho would be:
Red places his tile in step 1C, then has the option to remove and score his abbot in step 2B-1b. Finally Blue can score his big meeple in Step 3B.
If Red decides not to remove his abbot, Blue gets the full points in Step 3B.

In the Order of Play is written in Step 1Cb: Note: any tile-based feature that is finished is considered complete at this time.
In the rules of The Abbot is written in footnote 13: Once completed, a monastery or garden with several meeples will be scored taking into account the majority on the feature.


So, this might falsely lead to the interpretation that you cannot remove your abbot once the monastery is completed by covering the eight space (C2 wording  >:D ) with a tile.

Offline Meepledrone

  • Owner
  • Chatelain Grand Officier
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 6292
  • Merit: 456
  • It is full of... Meeples!!!
    • View Profile
Re: Questions
« Reply #262 on: April 27, 2020, 06:35:38 AM »
(218.)
[218.] What happens if you remove an red abbot from a monastery occupied by this abbot and a blue big meeple?

There is no written rule for this interaction, but if you check the Order of Play you can see that, when you remove an abbot from a monastery, you are carrying out the scoring of a figure in phase 2. Placing a meeple so no majority is applied. We are not scoring a feature like in phase 3. Scoring a feature.

In this scenario, you will remove and score the red abbot, and the blue large meeple will stay on the monastery until:
* The feature is completed with the blue large meeple and it is scored
* The blue large meeple is removed from the monastery as a result of an action associated to an expansions that allows to remove it (scoring it or not)
* The feature ends up incomplete with the blue large meeple and it is scored at the end of the game

In the case you keep both figures on the monastery until it is scored, Blue would have the majority and would score the monastery. Red's abbot would score 0 points for the monastery.


You can revisit the Order of Play here:
* Order of Play: http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Order_of_Play
* Scoring rules for abbot meeple: http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/The_Abbot#3._Scoring_with_the_Abbot
* Mini #1 and special monasteries: http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Monasteries#The_Flying_Machines

Interesting case here would be when Red leaves his abbot there until the round in which Red completes the monastery. The wording in WICA is not completely clear on this special case. The correct interpretation imho would be:
Red places his tile in step 1C, then has the option to remove and score his abbot in step 2B-1b. Finally Blue can score his big meeple in Step 3B.
If Red decides not to remove his abbot, Blue gets the full points in Step 3B.

In the Order of Play is written in Step 1Cb: Note: any tile-based feature that is finished is considered complete at this time.

This "trivial" note is important for magic portals and flying machines because you cannot use them to place a meeple on a feature you just completed with a tile placement. For example, this means that you cannot use a magic portal to deploy a monk to an unoccupied monastery you just completed (with the magic portal tile). Likewise for flying machines (no matter if the destination feature is occupied or not).

In the rules of The Abbot is written in footnote 13: Once completed, a monastery or garden with several meeples will be scored taking into account the majority on the feature.

So, this might falsely lead to the interpretation that you cannot remove your abbot once the monastery is completed by covering the eight space (C2 wording  >:D ) with a tile.

OK, think the following wording for footnote 13 may be better: When scored during or after the game, a monastery or garden with several meeples will take into account the majority on the feature.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2020, 06:55:28 AM by Meepledrone »

Offline Bumsakalaka

  • Count Chevalier
  • **
  • Posts: 2212
  • Merit: 31
  • Fan of Fan expansions
    • View Profile
    • www.scifi.sk
Re: Questions
« Reply #263 on: April 27, 2020, 07:37:32 AM »
So, what was answer, did red player points or not?

In case, that he remove abbot in phase 2B-1.
Can he do this also when he complete monastery with last tile before phase 3?
Check JCloisterZone Add-ons with fan expansions and also some Slovak sci/fi projects in English https://www.scifi.sk/en/

Offline Bumsakalaka

  • Count Chevalier
  • **
  • Posts: 2212
  • Merit: 31
  • Fan of Fan expansions
    • View Profile
    • www.scifi.sk
Re: Questions
« Reply #264 on: April 27, 2020, 08:48:39 AM »
But I have new question:
When I place a tile which is finishing road where a have a meeple.
Can I place in phase 2B-1 Fairy to meeple which is on finished road. And in phase 3 got extra 3 points becaouse fairy stay behing my meeple?

Offline Meepledrone

  • Owner
  • Chatelain Grand Officier
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 6292
  • Merit: 456
  • It is full of... Meeples!!!
    • View Profile
Re: Questions
« Reply #265 on: April 27, 2020, 01:45:35 PM »
(218.) So, what was answer, did red player points or not?

Hi, I include an excerpt of my original response...

[218.] What happens if you remove an red abbot from a monastery occupied by this abbot and a blue big meeple?

...
In this scenario, you will remove and score the red abbot, and the blue large meeple will stay on the monastery until:
* The feature is completed with the blue large meeple and it is scored
* The blue large meeple is removed from the monastery as a result of an action associated to an expansions that allows to remove it (scoring it or not)
* The feature ends up incomplete with the blue large meeple and it is scored at the end of the game
...

The answer: yes, you can remove the red abbot in phase 2B-1 and score it normally. This action is not affected by the presence of other meeples on the same monastery: majority does not apply.



[219.] In case, that he remove abbot in phase 2B-1.
Can he do this also when he complete monastery with last tile before phase 3?

Yes, even if the monastery is completed, you can remove the abbot in step 2B-1. There is no restriction in the rules to prevent you from doing it. In a scenario where multiple meeples can be deployed to a monastery, this can be an option to score points when:
* There are several meeples placed on the monastery (and you don't have the majority) due to flying machines.
* Other players can deploy meeples to the monastery from the City of Carcassonne (Exp. 6) and modify the majority right before scoring.

Please review this clarification for the abbot:
http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/The_Abbot#cite_note-13

You can also review these rules:
* Mini #1 - The Flier (Flying Machines): http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Monasteries#The_Flying_Machines
* Scoring with The Count of Carcassonne (exp. 6): http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Count,_King_and_Robber#3._Scoring_a_feature_-_Moving_meeples_from_Carcassonne
« Last Edit: June 01, 2020, 02:36:56 PM by Meepledrone »

Offline Bumsakalaka

  • Count Chevalier
  • **
  • Posts: 2212
  • Merit: 31
  • Fan of Fan expansions
    • View Profile
    • www.scifi.sk
Re: Questions
« Reply #266 on: April 27, 2020, 02:09:00 PM »
@meepledrone Thanks for answer!

Offline Bumsakalaka

  • Count Chevalier
  • **
  • Posts: 2212
  • Merit: 31
  • Fan of Fan expansions
    • View Profile
    • www.scifi.sk
Re: Questions
« Reply #267 on: April 27, 2020, 02:38:48 PM »
We were playing with daughter again, and we were play Barber Surgeons.
We found a question:
When you finish feature and take down shepherd, two meeples scrore.
But Shepherd is not scored by finishing feature, so onle one meeples score by finishing feature, so he will go to bathhouse if it's empty.
Right?
But when you close field with tile with finishing feature. Is it finishing of field? Or just automatic trigger of action: Shepherd guides the flock to the stable?
And another question:
When you take down Abbot like in previous case, is not affected by baths in case that
a) is taken down from table before finish garden or monastery?
b) is taken down from table before finish garden or monastery and also other meeplse finish feature, so two meeples scores, but one by not finishing feature (not count as meeple finishing feature) and second by finishing feature (so goes to baths, because is only one)?

Offline NGC 54

  • Marquis
  • ***
  • Posts: 541
  • Merit: 10
  • HiG must provide clarifications for all expansions
    • View Profile
    • WikiCarpedia user page
Re: Questions
« Reply #268 on: April 27, 2020, 02:53:15 PM »
Quote
The answer: yes you can remove the red abbot[/u] in phase 2B-1 and score it normally. This action is not affected by the presence of other meeples on the same monastery: majority does not apply.
„exactly like how monasteries are scored during the final scoring.” At the final scoring the majority is applied.

Offline Meepledrone

  • Owner
  • Chatelain Grand Officier
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 6292
  • Merit: 456
  • It is full of... Meeples!!!
    • View Profile
Re: Questions
« Reply #269 on: April 27, 2020, 04:24:22 PM »
Quote
(218.) The answer: yes you can remove the red abbot[/u] in phase 2B-1 and score it normally. This action is not affected by the presence of other meeples on the same monastery: majority does not apply.
„exactly like how monasteries are scored during the final scoring.” At the final scoring the majority is applied.

You should check the sentence completely, you just included the last part so some part of the context is missing:
Quote
If you do so, you score as many points as the garden or monastery your abbot occupied is worth at that time, exactly like how monasteries are scored during the final scoring.

So the sentence tells you the the abbot would receive as many points as a monastery or garden is worth at the end of the game.

The sentence doesn't tell you that you score the abbot as a monastery or garden at the end of the game, that is, including majority in the equation.

When you score an abbot, you score an independent figure (in phase 2. Placing a meeple). You are not scoring the feature it is on (in Phase 3. Scoring a feature or at the end of the game). I think the confusing part is that the figure (when removed and scored) and the feature it is on receive the same number of points... but the context and the scoring mechanism is totally different.

The previous wording was taken form the BB6 rules by ZMG. Here you are the equivalent text translated from the German rules by HiG, that seems clear to me:
Quote
Whenever you don't place a Meeple in 2. Placing a meeple, you may take your Abbot from the board back into your supply. You will then immediately receive the points that the monastery or garden is worth at that moment, which corresponds to the value of the feature at the end of the game. At the end of the game the abbot is scored like a normal monk.

So as you can see, the German rules don't mention full scoring either. Just how you tally the points.

Therefore the sentence "exactly like how monasteries are scored during the final scoring" should be read  as "exactly like how monasteries are worth during the final scoring" in this context.

ZMG just got creative and rehashed the paragraph. As a consequence, we are having this discussion on the implications of something not even considered in the base game or the abbot rules but possible in BB6: monasteries or gardens with multiple meeples.

Welcome to the wonderful world of misleading translations and their consequences!

Any thoughts?


Share via delicious Share via digg Share via facebook Share via furl Share via linkedin Share via myspace Share via reddit Share via stumble Share via technorati Share via twitter

  Subject / Started by Replies / Views Last post
xx
School questions

Started by MrNumbers

10 Replies
10505 Views
Last post May 05, 2014, 01:09:09 PM
by kettlefish
xx
Two questions about the Market of Leipzig

Started by carca82

7 Replies
969 Views
Last post August 13, 2022, 02:32:10 AM
by Meepledrone
clip
Tower and Builder, and Shepherd questions

Started by MrNumbers

12 Replies
11713 Views
Last post July 07, 2014, 12:04:28 PM
by kettlefish
clip
Natural disasters - rule questions

Started by Leven

3 Replies
8160 Views
Last post December 31, 2013, 05:43:02 AM
by Ratz65
xx
Dragon and German Castle questions

Started by obervet

6 Replies
4235 Views
Last post April 14, 2015, 02:35:04 PM
by Safari