Author Topic: Complete Annotated Rules v. 7.0, 2nd printing  (Read 38431 times)

Offline obervet

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Re: Complete Annotated Rules v. 7.0, 2nd printing
« Reply #15 on: July 08, 2014, 09:50:29 AM »
I think that Matt Harper didn't saw the problem of the just finished features and the magic portal: cloister and cult place.

No - the follower can't be placed on that finished cloister.

The relevant footnotes have been updated. I also added another footnote to the magic portal section to re-emphasize the timing of feature completion.

Offline totor66

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Re: Complete Annotated Rules v. 7.0, 2nd printing
« Reply #16 on: July 09, 2014, 02:58:50 AM »
Incredible job that all of you did on those Rules, really impressed.

Keep doing this wonderful job, I was redirected here from BGG and first thing I did was to read almost completely this file :)
Carcassonne Fan since 2014

Offline MrNumbers

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Re: Complete Annotated Rules v. 7.0, 2nd printing
« Reply #17 on: July 09, 2014, 03:02:34 AM »
Incredible job that all of you did on those Rules, really impressed.

Keep doing this wonderful job, I was redirected here from BGG and first thing I did was to read almost completely this file :)

Welcome to the forums, totor66! Apart from the CAR we have many interesting things here :D
"I never lose. Either I win or I learn." (Nelson Mandela)

Offline danielbrie

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Re: Complete Annotated Rules v. 7.0, 2nd printing
« Reply #18 on: July 16, 2014, 02:16:17 PM »
I am here to stay, so I have the original cover for CAR. Any modifications, replacements or move around suggestions are welcomed.
Any ideas anyone?

 :blue-meeple:

Offline asparagus

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Re: Complete Annotated Rules v. 7.0, 2nd printing
« Reply #19 on: July 23, 2014, 03:56:15 AM »
I notice in the "any time" portion of the turn play order.

Quote
You may claim an unclaimed tunnel portal by placing a tunnel token on it

I note that it is theoretically possible for this to complete a road that is entirely unrelated to the tile just placed. I presume that step 6 is also immediately executed for this road independently of anything else and this might even happen inside a different step 6.

Offline Carcking

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Re: Complete Annotated Rules v. 7.0, 2nd printing
« Reply #20 on: July 23, 2014, 09:33:42 AM »
I notice in the "any time" portion of the turn play order.

Quote
You may claim an unclaimed tunnel portal by placing a tunnel token on it

I note that it is theoretically possible for this to complete a road that is entirely unrelated to the tile just placed. I presume that step 6 is also immediately executed for this road independently of anything else and this might even happen inside a different step 6.

Good catch asparagus.
I just drew the perfect tile for my MonKnighThieFarmer!

Offline obervet

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Re: Complete Annotated Rules v. 7.0, 2nd printing
« Reply #21 on: July 24, 2014, 07:20:04 AM »
I notice in the "any time" portion of the turn play order.

Quote
You may claim an unclaimed tunnel portal by placing a tunnel token on it

I note that it is theoretically possible for this to complete a road that is entirely unrelated to the tile just placed. I presume that step 6 is also immediately executed for this road independently of anything else and this might even happen inside a different step 6.

I'm not convinced that scoring occurs immediately after completion, since there's no comment in the rules about immediately scoring a completed tunnel road. In fact, immediate scoring could lead to rules abuse. For example, if I have no more followers in my pool, I could place a tile, place a tunnel token to complete a road, score that road, return the follower to my hand, then have a follower to place on the tile that I just played (since we haven't gotten to the move wood phase yet).

Until there is a clarification to the contrary, I would think that a road completed by a tunnel token is scored at the same time as features completed by tile placement -- during the scoring phase. Within that phase, the active player gets to choose what order everything is scored in, and if the tunnel token is placed during the scoring phase, a newly-completed tunnel would just enter the queue to be scored as well.

Offline Carcking

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Re: Complete Annotated Rules v. 7.0, 2nd printing
« Reply #22 on: July 24, 2014, 12:25:16 PM »
Until there is a clarification to the contrary, I would think that a road completed by a tunnel token is scored at the same time as features completed by tile placement -- during the scoring phase.

The concern you raise is valid regarding timing, but that may just be a matter of preference. How would you handle the tunnel being completed after the scoring phase if that prescribed opportunity to score has passed? You have to suppose that the tunnel road does get scored if completed after the scoring phase (not just abandoned), so by extension one would reason it could be scored even before the scoring phase. To uphold the definition of "any time".

Regarding the placement of a Flea - it would seem a player could flea his own follower (anytime) in order to have one to place that turn. Also, is there a similar sequence with the Tower if a player ransoms a follower back at anytime? (Although admittedly there is a cost associated with that one.)

Offline asparagus

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Re: Complete Annotated Rules v. 7.0, 2nd printing
« Reply #23 on: July 24, 2014, 03:14:34 PM »
I'm not convinced that scoring occurs immediately after completion, since there's no comment in the rules about immediately scoring a completed tunnel road. In fact, immediate scoring could lead to rules abuse. For example, if I have no more followers in my pool, I could place a tile, place a tunnel token to complete a road, score that road, return the follower to my hand, then have a follower to place on the tile that I just played (since we haven't gotten to the move wood phase yet).
The way we used to play tunnels until I started studying the CAR, was that claiming a tunnel was a  move wood action. That would have prevented what you call "abuse". I have no issue either way, but saying claiming a tunnel is a move action makes it more consistent. But I think if you allow that claiming a tunnel end is a free action you have to allow what ever follows from that.

Until there is a clarification to the contrary, I would think that a road completed by a tunnel token is scored at the same time as features completed by tile placement -- during the scoring phase. Within that phase, the active player gets to choose what order everything is scored in, and if the tunnel token is placed during the scoring phase, a newly-completed tunnel would just enter the queue to be scored as well.
What would this allow that would be different from just saying that claiming a tunnel is a move wood action?

How would you handle the tunnel being completed after the scoring phase if that prescribed opportunity to score has passed? You have to suppose that the tunnel road does get scored if completed after the scoring phase (not just abandoned), so by extension one would reason it could be scored even before the scoring phase. To uphold the definition of "any time".
good point

Regarding the placement of a Flea - it would seem a player could flea his own follower (anytime) in order to have one to place that turn. Also, is there a similar sequence with the Tower if a player ransoms a follower back at anytime? (Although admittedly there is a cost associated with that one.)
Actually I was comparing the tower rules with the CAR today. By my reading if a person places a tower, captures an opponent's follower which is immediately swapped for his phantom, then he is free to place that phantom. The key phrase is that the prisoner exchange takes place "immediately and automatically". I take it that this means prisoner exchange takes place during the move wood phase. This contradicts the CAR play order.

Until there is a clarification to the contrary, I would think that a road completed by a tunnel token is scored at the same time as features completed by tile placement -- during the scoring phase. Within that phase, the active player gets to choose what order everything is scored in, and if the tunnel token is placed during the scoring phase, a newly-completed tunnel would just enter the queue to be scored as well.
Actually since Robbers and Dispatches I believe there is a major issue with the way the CAR turn order is constructed. The CAR states that the active player determines the order in which completed features are resolved. That seems reasonable however as far as I can see his decision only impacts the wagon and the school - at least amongst official expansions. The order in which these scores are awarded is potentially quite different. This I think requires a whole new step for score resolution.

Whilst I am at it I am puzzled why a player can activate the festival option and then move the fairy. It's certainly possible but a  bit arbitrary and I don't recall an authoritative statement on that.

Offline obervet

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Re: Complete Annotated Rules v. 7.0, 2nd printing
« Reply #24 on: July 25, 2014, 12:58:51 PM »
Until there is a clarification to the contrary, I would think that a road completed by a tunnel token is scored at the same time as features completed by tile placement -- during the scoring phase.

The concern you raise is valid regarding timing, but that may just be a matter of preference. How would you handle the tunnel being completed after the scoring phase if that prescribed opportunity to score has passed? You have to suppose that the tunnel road does get scored if completed after the scoring phase (not just abandoned), so by extension one would reason it could be scored even before the scoring phase. To uphold the definition of "any time".

I would try to make the scoring of the tunnel fit within the remainder of the rules as best as possible. Thus, I would score the tunnel during the scoring phase if I could. If the token was placed after the scoring phase, then you would have to score it immediately, but I would consider that the exception rather than the rule.

Offline obervet

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Re: Complete Annotated Rules v. 7.0, 2nd printing
« Reply #25 on: July 25, 2014, 01:02:27 PM »
Regarding the placement of a Flea - it would seem a player could flea his own follower (anytime) in order to have one to place that turn. Also, is there a similar sequence with the Tower if a player ransoms a follower back at anytime? (Although admittedly there is a cost associated with that one.)

I agree that these would be legitimate. The difference with these (compared to the tunnel situation) is that the return of a follower carries a negative cost (no score for the one that was flea'd, a payment for the one that was tower'd).

Offline obervet

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Re: Complete Annotated Rules v. 7.0, 2nd printing
« Reply #26 on: July 25, 2014, 03:25:40 PM »
Multiple comments which are not repeated here to save space.

In going back and reading the rules, I think there is actually an argument to be made for tunnel token placement during the Move Wood phase. The rules state that the token may be placed "on the land tile which has just been placed", seemingly indicating that this is after tile placement. It doesn't say that you can't place a token during the scoring phase, but to me it kind of sounds like a Move Wood action that doesn't prevent follower placement.

I don't know that I had ever thought about swapping a regular follower and a phantom after a Tower capture, but it seems that Phantom placement would still be legal, as you would still be in the Move Wood phase. I'll have to tweak the Turn Order.

I don't think I understand your point about order of resolution for scoring. A number of official clarifications indicate that the active player chooses the order that features score (see footnote 444 in CAR 7.0, for example). Is there something in the turn order that contradicts this?

The fairy actually cannot be moved after the Festival is used (see footnote 381, CAR 7.0).


Offline obervet

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Re: Complete Annotated Rules v. 7.0, 2nd printing
« Reply #27 on: July 25, 2014, 03:32:09 PM »
The fairy actually cannot be moved after the Festival is used (see footnote 381, CAR 7.0).

Okay, I see that the Turn Order had this wrong. It has been corrected.

Offline asparagus

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Re: Complete Annotated Rules v. 7.0, 2nd printing
« Reply #28 on: July 25, 2014, 10:34:53 PM »
I don't think I understand your point about order of resolution for scoring. A number of official clarifications indicate that the active player chooses the order that features score (see footnote 444 in CAR 7.0, for example). Is there something in the turn order that contradicts this?
I am not arguing against the order of completed feature resolution. Rather my point is that with regards to scoring this generates a list of scores:
Quote
green - 2
red - 5
blue - 5
green - 3
blue - 3
With robbers and dispatchers these scores are not simply added to the player's score. Robbers in particular messes with the order. Each receiver of points decides what order to receive in points in. Where they have a choice the robbers must decide which player to rob but they must take the first.
So each player gets the points in the order they decide. Different players will choose differently and hence differently from the active player.

I reckon this can only be accommodated within a new scoring resolution step.

Also dispatches group scores into rounds. Scores generated within one scoring round wait until the next round.

So what does the order of feature completion actually impact. I can only find the wagon and the school.

Offline asparagus

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Re: Complete Annotated Rules v. 7.0, 2nd printing
« Reply #29 on: July 25, 2014, 11:51:05 PM »
In going back and reading the rules, I think there is actually an argument to be made for tunnel token placement during the Move Wood phase. The rules state that the token may be placed "on the land tile which has just been placed", seemingly indicating that this is after tile placement. It doesn't say that you can't place a token during the scoring phase, but to me it kind of sounds like a Move Wood action that doesn't prevent follower placement.

It looks to me that this would be sensible and consistent with what we know. I may of course change my mind later.

P.S. I would suggest adding "claim tunnel" as a step 4G with a note that actually it can be any part of step 4. I can see reasons for claiming the tunnel late (for example waiting to see the flier dice roll) but I cannot see any reasons for early tunnel placement better tham "do it now before I forget".
« Last Edit: July 26, 2014, 12:29:07 AM by asparagus »


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